Samie Posted September 9, 2015 Author Posted September 9, 2015 Where do you get the idea that only one who is spiritually alive can respond to the Holy Spirit? From Scriptures. Quote
Samie Posted September 9, 2015 Author Posted September 9, 2015 Samie, let's focus a moment on something that we agreed on. You wrote: Would you please expand on this? How do you see that this works? Our Savior said: John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. For me, a true believer is one who abides by what God has written in his heart and mind the way he understands them through the leading of the Holy Spirit. Hence, it is overcoming evil with good because our deeds are either evil or not. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 Where do you get the idea that only one who is spiritually alive can respond to the Holy Spirit? Samie: From Scriptures. What Scripture says you have to be spiritual alive to respond to the Holy Spirit? Is it your opinion that no one is spiritually dead? (I'm asking this because if one who is spiritually dead cannot respond to the Holy Spirit, then the couldn't be saved. Given you think anyone has the chance to be saved, it would seem to follow you must view such as spiritually alive, based on your previous comments). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 Samie, let's focus a moment on something that we agreed on. You wrote: Would you please expand on this? How do you see that this works? Our Savior said: John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. For me, a true believer is one who abides by what God has written in his heart and mind the way he understands them through the leading of the Holy Spirit. Hence, it is overcoming evil with good because our deeds are either evil or not. You left out the part I was asking about, which was this: Those who refuse to believe refuse to overcome the evil of unbelief. I'm asking you to expand on this idea. Specifically I'm interested in your thoughts about refusing to believe. Is the idea that the Holy Spirit is trying to lead them to repentance, but they refuse to respond? Or did you have something else in mind? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
8thdaypriest Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) If one who is physically DEAD, can respond to the voice of Christ, by waking up (coming to life) - and this is true whether this person is one of the "saved" or one of the "condemned", then is it not also possible for one who is spiritually DEAD, to respond to the Spirit of Christ, by coming alive (spiritually) ? The difference being that one who is spiritually DEAD can resist, while a physically dead human cannot resist the power of God to resurrect. God has given us that power of CHOICE. It's called "free will". Edited September 9, 2015 by 8thdaypriest Quote 8thdaypriest
pnattmbtc Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 To be spiritually dead means to not have been born again. If a spiritually dead person could not respond to the Holy Spirit, he could not become born again. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted September 11, 2015 Author Posted September 11, 2015 You left out the part I was asking about, which was this: I'm asking you to expand on this idea. Specifically I'm interested in your thoughts about refusing to believe. Is the idea that the Holy Spirit is trying to lead them to repentance, but they refuse to respond? Or did you have something else in mind? Yes, it is refusing the leading of the Holy Spirit. And I have stated this in an earlier post. Here again: Our Savior said: John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. For me, a true believer is one who abides by what God has written in his heart and mind the way he understands them through the leading of the Holy Spirit. Hence, it is overcoming evil with good because our deeds are either evil or not. Quote
Samie Posted September 11, 2015 Author Posted September 11, 2015 What Scripture says you have to be spiritual alive to respond to the Holy Spirit? One cannot answer when he does not understand anything. And responding to the Holy Spirit requires we understand what the Spirit says. And spiritual things are spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:14). Is it your opinion that no one is spiritually dead? (I'm asking this because if one who is spiritually dead cannot respond to the Holy Spirit, then the couldn't be saved. Given you think anyone has the chance to be saved, it would seem to follow you must view such as spiritually alive, based on your previous comments). My position is, because of the life, death and resurrection of our Savior, all people are born spiritually alive. Just like saying all people are born written in the Book of Life. Quote
Samie Posted September 11, 2015 Author Posted September 11, 2015 To be spiritually dead means to not have been born again. If a spiritually dead person could not respond to the Holy Spirit, he could not become born again. Our being born again is God's work FOR us, so Scriptures say: NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead Quote
pnattmbtc Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 One cannot answer when he does not understand anything. And responding to the Holy Spirit requires we understand what the Spirit says. And spiritual things are spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:14). My position is, because of the life, death and resurrection of our Savior, all people are born spiritually alive. Just like saying all people are born written in the Book of Life. We read: And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Eph. 2:1,2 Paul's readers used to be spiritually dead when the formerly walked in their trespasses and sins according to the course of this world. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted September 11, 2015 Posted September 11, 2015 Our being born again is God's work FOR us, so Scriptures say: NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead When one believes. Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God." John 3:3 Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again. Nicodemus asked him how he could be born again, and Jesus explained: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3;16) Paul taught the same thing. For example: For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. (Romans 10:10) Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted September 15, 2015 Author Posted September 15, 2015 Our being born again is God's work FOR us, so Scriptures say: NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead When one believes. Not quite. To be born again is to be spiritually alive, and we were made alive TOGETHER with Christ, not one at a time when one believes. NAS Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) Quote
pnattmbtc Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Not quite. To be born again is to be spiritually alive, and we were made alive TOGETHER with Christ, not one at a time when one believes. NAS Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) You look to be making the error of reading the effect of the action as the time of the action. I explained this in detail on the other thread. For your convenience, I'm copying it here. It's a different text being considered, but the same principle is applied. What Paul is saying is that before we were converted, we were alientated and enemies in our mind, which means separated from God, estanged from God, at odds with God, not at peace with God; in short, not reconciled. Then we were converted, after which point we were no longer enemies of God, but friends with God, which is to say, reconciled. It cannot be the case that we were enemies in our mind before we existed becase we had no mind in which to be an emeny. To be an enemy in our mind means we must exist and think, so these things that happened, involving formerly being an enemy in our mind, but now no longer, entail our existing and thinking. I see the issue here, which is that you are reading the phrase "by His death" as if there were something about the death of Christ which could reconcile us by itself, without our participation. But this is not the only way to read this phrase. Let's see if I can come up with an example. Let's say my grandfather passed away and left an inheritance for my mother, and he passed away before I was born. I need money for something, say college, and I say something like, "I went to college by the death of my grandfather". What does this mean? It means that as a result of the death of my grandfather, it became possible for me to go to college, because the money which he left for my Mom, she gave to me tu use for school. So even though I write, "I went to college by the death of my grandfather", this does not mean this happened at the time of my grandfather's death, before I existed. Indeed, it would be bizare to read this sentence in this way, since I cannot go to school without existing. Similarly, it is perfectly legitimate, gramatically, to read the sentence that we were reconciled by the death of His Son in the same way as my sentence that I can go to school by the death of my grandfather. As by the death of my grandfather something happened by which it became possible for me to go to school, by the death of Christ, something happened which made it possible for me to be reconciled. But the sentence structure no more requires I be reconciled at the time Christ died than that I went to school at the time by grandfather died. And just as reading the sentence, "I went to college by the death of my grandfather," as meaning that this happened before I existed, so too, reading that were reconciled by the death of Christ as happening before we existed is a bizarre reading, since we can no more be reconciled without existing than we can go to school without existing. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Not quite. To be born again is to be spiritually alive, and we were made alive TOGETHER with Christ, not one at a time when one believes. NAS Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) What about the rest of the post? This was just one text of several. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 You left out the part I was asking about, which was this: I'm asking you to expand on this idea. Specifically I'm interested in your thoughts about refusing to believe. Is the idea that the Holy Spirit is trying to lead them to repentance, but they refuse to respond? Or did you have something else in mind? Yes, it is refusing the leading of the Holy Spirit. And I have stated this in an earlier post. Here again: On 9/8/2015, 7:19:21, Samie said: Our Savior said: John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. For me, a true believer is one who abides by what God has written in his heart and mind the way he understands them through the leading of the Holy Spirit. Hence, it is overcoming evil with good because our deeds are either evil or not. The post you are referencing here says nothing about refusing the leading of the Holy Spirit. What I'm getting at is that in order to be lost, one must resist the Holy Spirit. If one does not resist the Holy Spirit, one will be converted. I think we're on agreement on this point. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Is it your opinion that no one is spiritually dead? (I'm asking this because if one who is spiritually dead cannot respond to the Holy Spirit, then the couldn't be saved. Given you think anyone has the chance to be saved, it would seem to follow you must view such as spiritually alive, based on your previous comments). Samie: My position is, because of the life, death and resurrection of our Savior, all people are born spiritually alive. Just like saying all people are born written in the Book of Life. I don't think the statement that one is born spiritually alive makes much sense. To be spiritually alive would involve things like faith, or, to use your language, overcoming evil with good, and these aren't things one normally associates with new born infants. But that's not my main question. My main question is, what about after the age of accountability? Are all these people spiritually alive? Also,as I read the Scriptures, it seems clear to me that "spiritually alive" means, again, to use your language, overcoming evil with good. For example, in Ephesians it talks about having been dead in trespasses and sins, and walking in the way of the world, but now, after believing in Christ, Paul's readers weren't doing these things anymore, so being spiritually alive would entail, again using your language, overcoming evil with good. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Our being born again is God's work FOR us, so Scriptures say: NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead Certainly being born again is God's work, as we can no more give birth to ourselves the second time anymore than we could the first. However, being born again is the result of believing in Christ, as Jesus explained: For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again. Nicodemus asked how, and this was Jesus' explanation. If believing in Christ were not necessary, Jesus could have simply said something like, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son" and left it at that. There would be no need to explain to Nicodemus the necessity of believing in Christ in answering his question. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted September 16, 2015 Author Posted September 16, 2015 Our Savior said: John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. For me, a true believer is one who abides by what God has written in his heart and mind the way he understands them through the leading of the Holy Spirit. Hence, it is overcoming evil with good because our deeds are either evil or not. The post you are referencing here says nothing about refusing the leading of the Holy Spirit. I was of the impression that you were aware Jesus has said if he does not go away unto His Father the HS will not come and that the HS will guide us into all truth. Quote
Samie Posted September 16, 2015 Author Posted September 16, 2015 I don't think the statement that one is born spiritually alive makes much sense. To be spiritually alive would involve things like faith, or, to use your language, overcoming evil with good, and these aren't things one normally associates with new born infants. Being born physically alive does not necessarily mean one is able to do physical things like chopping wood, etc. Just because a new-born infant is not able to chop wood means he is not physically alive. Same case with being born spiritually alive. And Scriptures tell of infants in Christ. Quote
Samie Posted September 16, 2015 Author Posted September 16, 2015 Certainly being born again is God's work, as we can no more give birth to ourselves the second time anymore than we could the first. However, being born again is the result of believing in Christ, as Jesus explained: Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be born again. Nicodemus asked how, and this was Jesus' explanation. If believing in Christ were not necessary, Jesus could have simply said something like, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son" and left it at that. There would be no need to explain to Nicodemus the necessity of believing in Christ in answering his question. Again, believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief. Believing occurs AFTER one had been made spiritually alive TOGETHER with Christ. Making us spiritually alive is in the realm of the Past Tense of Salvation, the 1st Dimension of the Gospel. Believing is in the Present Tense of Salvation, the 2nd Dimension of the Gospel. The first part of John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son", is in the 1st dimension, the last part "that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" is in the 2nd dimension. For me, to place believing in the 1st dimension instead of in the 2nd, is placing the cart before the horse. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 The post you are referencing here says nothing about refusing the leading of the Holy Spirit. Samie: I was of the impression that you were aware Jesus has said if he does not go away unto His Father the HS will not come and that the HS will guide us into all truth. This also says nothing about refusing the leading of the Holy Spirit. How does what you just wrote tie into our discussion? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 I don't think the statement that one is born spiritually alive makes much sense. To be spiritually alive would involve things like faith, or, to use your language, overcoming evil with good, and these aren't things one normally associates with new born infants. Samie: Being born physically alive does not necessarily mean one is able to do physical things like chopping wood, etc. Just because a new-born infant is not able to chop wood means he is not physically alive. Same case with being born spiritually alive. And Scriptures tell of infants in Christ. Being physically alive is very different than being spiritually alive. Even bugs are physically alive. To be spiritually alive means to be able to use your mental faculties to do spiritual things, such as exercise faith, overcome evil with good, etc. The infants in Christ that you refer to are indeed spiritually alive, because they have accepted Christ. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 Again, believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief. Believing occurs AFTER one had been made spiritually alive TOGETHER with Christ. Making us spiritually alive is in the realm of the Past Tense of Salvation, the 1st Dimension of the Gospel. Believing is in the Present Tense of Salvation, the 2nd Dimension of the Gospel. The first part of John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son", is in the 1st dimension, the last part "that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" is in the 2nd dimension. For me, to place believing in the 1st dimension instead of in the 2nd, is placing the cart before the horse. First God gave His Son, which is the first dimension, as you call it. Then we believe, that's the second. When we believe, we receive everlasting life, the second dimension. From John 3:16: 1.God so loved the world.2.That whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. So it's 1)God gave His Son 2)We believe and receive everlasting life. Regarding Nicodemus, Jesus explained to him that he must be born again. Nicodemus didn't understand how. Jesus explained that it was by believing in Him. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted September 16, 2015 Author Posted September 16, 2015 First God gave His Son, which is the first dimension, as you call it. Then we believe, that's the second. When we believe, we receive everlasting life, the second dimension. From John 3:16: 1.God so loved the world.2.That whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. So it's 1)God gave His Son 2)We believe and receive everlasting life. Regarding Nicodemus, Jesus explained to him that he must be born again. Nicodemus didn't understand how. Jesus explained that it was by believing in Him. It is in the first dimension where God made us spiritually alive through His Son and thereby empowered to do spiritual acts. Jesus said He was sent to give the world life and that He did by laying His own. That death brought us life. By His stripes we were healed. We can now, in the 2nd dimension, believe - a spiritual act - because we have been made spiritually alive in the first. The act of believing proves one is already spiritually alive. To say that we believe to become spiritually alive is, for me, placing the cart before the horse. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted September 16, 2015 Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) It is in the first dimension where God made us spiritually alive through His Son and thereby empowered to do spiritual acts. Jesus said He was sent to give the world life and that He did by laying His own. That death brought us life. By His stripes we were healed. We can now, in the 2nd dimension, believe - a spiritual act - because we have been made spiritually alive in the first. The act of believing proves one is already spiritually alive. To say that we believe to become spiritually alive is, for me, placing the cart before the horse. I think the problem here (and by problem I mean problem of communication) is that you are using the phrase "spiriually alive" differently than everyone else. I think everyone else here understands "spiritually alive" to mean "converted", whereas for you, "spiritually alive" means "able to do spiritual acts, such as believe". It appears to me that what you are thinking is putting the cart before the horse is semantics, simply because you use this phrase differently. Edited September 16, 2015 by pnattmbtc 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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