Cart Before the Horse?

[Samie]

You've done the same thing I've asked you not to do, again.  If you're going to make as assertion regarding something I've written, you need to quote what you're talking about, or else what you're saying is just an empty claim.  What specifically have I written that is either lacking in common sense or not in agreement with Scripture?

But this is beside the point, as what I'm asking you as how we can carry on a conversation if *you* are going to reject common sense and the Scriptures.  You've rejected John as needing correction.  What am I supposed to do with that?  When I present evidence to you that your position is not in agreement with Scripture, you set aside the Scripture!

When I suggest we need to use common sense, you argue against that!

When I suggest we should make well-reasoned arguments, and present evidence, you argue against that!

How do we carry on a conversation if you reject

1.Scripture

2.Reason

3.Evidence

4.Common sense 

That's according to you. You appear to be successful in dodging the real issue with your "sound argument", but not with Scriptures. Here's the real issue again:

You better ask that yourself.  If Scriptures can't convince you, what will, my brother?

Again, you had been shown Scriptures that believing can only be done by those who are ALREADY attached to Christ. How so? Because believing is exercising faith, and faith is fruit of the Spirit which only those attached to Christ can bear, because Christ Himself said separate from Him man couldn't bear fruit and can do NOTHING.

But here you are preaching that man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Christ, they can believe because they already have faith even while separate from Christ. Clearly, cart before the horse.

Until now you fail to prove your case via Scriptures. You were proving it via SOUND ARGUMENT.

Sound argument instead of Scriptures: also cart before the horse.

[pnattmbtc]

I don't understand what you want, Samie.  I have presented arguments based on Scripture.  Just respond to those. I can repeat them if you want, but their in the body of the posts in the thread.  Just respond to these posts.

[Samie]

I don't understand what you want, Samie.  I have presented arguments based on Scripture.  Just respond to those. I can repeat them if you want, but their in the body of the posts in the thread.  Just respond to these posts.

You do understand it. You just can't address them Scripturally but rather argumentally. Here again is the issue to be addressed:

  On 10/9/2015, 5:29:00, Samie said:

You better ask that yourself.  If Scriptures can't convince you, what will, my brother?

Again, you had been shown Scriptures that believing can only be done by those who are ALREADY attached to Christ. How so? Because believing is exercising faith, and faith is fruit of the Spirit which only those attached to Christ can bear, because Christ Himself said separate from Him man couldn't bear fruit and can do NOTHING.

But here you are preaching that man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Christ, they can believe because they already have faith even while separate from Christ. Clearly, cart before the horse.

[pnattmbtc]

You do understand it. You just can't address them Scripturally but rather argumentally. Here again is the issue to be addressed:

I think you're not understanding what's being said.  I realize English is not your first language, so I will attempt to use other words to state this.

An argument is a presentation which involves suppositions and reasoning.  When presenting an argument, there needs to be some agreement as to the parties as to what may be accepted as authoritative in terms of foundations for the suppositions.  In theological arguments on this forum, all participants agree that Scripture is accepted.  Some also accept the Spirit of Prophecy, and some do not.  In my arguments with you, I have been using only Scripture.

There is no dichotomy.  *Any* argument is an argument; it's simply a presentation based on reason.  *All* the arguments I have present to you are based on Scripture, because this is what I perceived you were accepting as authoritative (although your recent posts regarding John have caused me to doubt if this is the case or not).

I presented 5 scriptures for you to consider.

1.Galatians 5:2.  This says that we receive the Holy Spirit by faith.  This presents a problem to your idea, because your idea is that we cannot have faith except by the Holy Spirit, so you have a problem here of a mutual dependence that needs to be worked out.

2.John 1:12.  You acknowledged this was a problem, and responded to it by stating this this Scripture needed to be corrected.

3.1 John 1:9.  Same as John 1:12

4.Romans 10:10.  This says when we believe we are justified.  You responded this was referring to the faith of Jesus, but this is impossible considering the context:

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

 This is clearly not speaking of the faith of Jesus, and I pointed this out, but do not think you have responded.

You do understand it. You just can't address them Scripturally but rather argumentally. Here again is the issue to be addressed:

I think you're not understanding what's being said.  I realize English is not your first language, so I will attempt to use other words to state this.

An argument is a presentation which involves suppositions and reasoning.  When presenting an argument, there needs to be some agreement as to the parties as to what may be accepted as authoritative in terms of foundations for the suppositions.  In theological arguments on this forum, all participants agree that Scripture is accepted.  Some also accept the Spirit of Prophecy, and some do not.  In my arguments with you, I have been using only Scripture.

There is no dichotomy.  *Any* argument is an argument; it's simply a presentation based on reason.  *All* the arguments I have present to you are based on Scripture, because this is what I perceived you were accepting as authoritative (although your recent posts regarding John have caused me to doubt if this is the case or not).

I presented 5 scriptures for you to consider.

1.Galatians 5:2.  This says that we receive the Holy Spirit by faith.  This presents a problem to your idea, because your idea is that we cannot have faith except by the Holy Spirit, so you have a problem here of a mutual dependence that needs to be worked out.

2. 2 Cor. 5:20.  This says "be ye reconciled to God", which does not agree with your position.

3.John 1:12.  You acknowledged this was a problem, and responded to it by stating this this Scripture needed to be corrected.

4.1 John 1:9.  Same as John 1:12

5.Romans 10:10.  This says when we believe we are justified.  You responded this was referring to the faith of Jesus, but this is impossible considering the context:

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

 This is clearly not speaking of the faith of Jesus, and I pointed this out, but do not think you have responded.

 

So all of these are arguments presented from Scripture.  I can present more if you'd like.

[pnattmbtc]

You better ask that yourself.  If Scriptures can't convince you, what will, my brother?

Again, you had been shown Scriptures that believing can only be done by those who are ALREADY attached to Christ. How so? Because believing is exercising faith, and faith is fruit of the Spirit which only those attached to Christ can bear, because Christ Himself said separate from Him man couldn't bear fruit and can do NOTHING.

But here you are preaching that man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Christ, they can believe because they already have faith even while separate from Christ. Clearly, cart before the horse.

There is no Scripture whatsoever presented here.  Please present an argument which uses Scripture.  In particular, when you speak of being "attached to Christ", what Scripture do you have in mind?  That is, what Scripture speaks of our being "attached"? 

[Samie]

There is no Scripture whatsoever presented here.  Please present an argument which uses Scripture.  In particular, when you speak of being "attached to Christ", what Scripture do you have in mind?  That is, what Scripture speaks of our being "attached"? 

Scriptures regarding this have been presented loooong time ago in this and in other threads. I can even recall you saying there are other means whereby one can obtain faith and until now you haven't disclosed what those other means are. But I didn't press you for that. I don't think you are short of memory, brother. You seem to be playing games.

[pnattmbtc]

Scriptures regarding this have been presented loooong time ago in this and in other threads. I can even recall you saying there are other means whereby one can obtain faith and until now you haven't disclosed what those other means are. But I didn't press you for that. I don't think you are short of memory, brother. You seem to be playing games.

I can think of no Scripture at any time that you presented that had the word "attached" in it.

[Samie]

I can think of no Scripture at any time that you presented that had the word "attached" in it.

Want to play game, brother? OK. I leave that to the kids. Grown-ups in their right frame of mind know that being NOT separate from the Body of Christ is to be attached to Him.  Your choice: be a grown-up OR remain a kid.

[pnattmbtc]

Want to play game, brother? OK. I leave that to the kids. Grown-ups in their right frame of mind know that being NOT separate from the Body of Christ is to be attached to Him.  Your choice: be a grown-up OR remain a kid.

So you have in mind some verse which has the word "separate" and "body of Christ" in it?  Why don't you just quote whatever text you have in mind, and make whatever point you have in mind, but do so with the language of the text you're quoting?  You're not being precise, and we're talking about things which require precision.  You should know this.  You should be precise, and not take fault with your reader when you're not.  You shouldn't make your reader have to read minds.

Please preset some text with some argument based on the text.

[Samie]

So you have in mind some verse which has the word "separate" and "body of Christ" in it?  Why don't you just quote whatever text you have in mind, and make whatever point you have in mind, but do so with the language of the text you're quoting?  You're not being precise, and we're talking about things which require precision.  You should know this.  You should be precise, and not take fault with your reader when you're not.  You shouldn't make your reader have to read minds.

Please preset some text with some argument based on the text.

Already done long time ago. Page 5 of this thread. Eph 2:11-19; John 15:4-5.

Again, you had been shown Scriptures that believing can only be done by those who are ALREADY attached to Christ. How so? Because believing is exercising faith, and faith is fruit of the Spirit which only those attached to Christ can bear, because Christ Himself said separate from Him man couldn't bear fruit and can do NOTHING.

But here you are preaching that man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Christ, they can believe because they already have faith even while separate from Christ. Clearly, cart before the horse.

[pnattmbtc]

 

Already done long time ago. Page 5 of this thread. Eph 2:11-19; John 15:4-5.

Again, you had been shown Scriptures that believing can only be done by those who are ALREADY attached to Christ. How so? Because believing is exercising faith, and faith is fruit of the Spirit which only those attached to Christ can bear, because Christ Himself said separate from Him man couldn't bear fruit and can do NOTHING.

But here you are preaching that man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Christ, they can believe because they already have faith even while separate from Christ. Clearly, cart before the horse.

Thank you for presenting texts for discussion.

If we look at John 15, we can see that this is directed towards believers:

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

For example, "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you."  When does the word of Christ cleanse?  Only if we believe.  It is not simply Christ speaking the word the cleanses us, but our believing the words that He has spoken.  "The words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life" (John 6:63).  But they are only such for those who believe, or else there would only be one class of people, instead of two.  Jesus points this out in the very next verse, verse 64, saying that "there are some of you who do not believe."

More evidence that Jesus is speaking to believers is verse 4, where Jesus says to "remain in me, as I remain in you."  Revelation 3 present Christ as standing at the door and knocking.  To those who receive Him, He enters in to fellowship.  This is how one can overcome evil with good, by having Christ dwelling within.  This happens when one receives Christ as one's personal savior.

Again consider verse 10: "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love."  This is overcoming evil with good, which, unfortunately, not everybody does, but only those who remain in Christ, and Christ remains in them.

All of this is the context of what it means to be attached to Christ.  All of these verses are dealing with those who have received Christ, which is clear by the context.

Some more verses which make this clear:

14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 

and more:

18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. 

Those who are attached to Christ do not belong to the world, but the world hates those who are attached to Christ.  There are two different classes of people here.

Ephesians 2 doesn't say anything about being attached to Christ, so I don't know why you included this text.

[pnattmbtc]

If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.(Matt 6:14,15)

How do you understand this text? 

[pnattmbtc]

Or this:

2 A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them.3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them.4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves,7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Manhas authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

If you were correct in your idea that everyone's sins are forgiven at the cross, then Jesus could not have been able to forgive this man's sins, but He did! 

[pnattmbtc]

 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
    whose transgressions are forgiven,
    whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
    whose sin the Lord will never count against them." (Romans 4:6-8)

This text doesn't match your idea either, because David lived long before the cross, yet his sins were forgiven.  Also he was justified by faith, and this centuries before the cross. 

[pnattmbtc]

47"For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little." 48Then He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven." Luke 7:47, 48

Here is another example of someone's sins being forgiven before the cross. 

[Samie]

 

Thank you for presenting texts for discussion.

If we look at John 15, we can see that this is directed towards believers:

For example, "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you."  When does the word of Christ cleanse?  Only if we believe.  It is not simply Christ speaking the word the cleanses us, but our believing the words that He has spoken.  "The words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life" (John 6:63).  But they are only such for those who believe, or else there would only be one class of people, instead of two.  Jesus points this out in the very next verse, verse 64, saying that "there are some of you who do not believe."

More evidence that Jesus is speaking to believers is verse 4, where Jesus says to "remain in me, as I remain in you."  Revelation 3 present Christ as standing at the door and knocking.  To those who receive Him, He enters in to fellowship.  This is how one can overcome evil with good, by having Christ dwelling within.  This happens when one receives Christ as one's personal savior.

Again consider verse 10: "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love."  This is overcoming evil with good, which, unfortunately, not everybody does, but only those who remain in Christ, and Christ remains in them.

All of this is the context of what it means to be attached to Christ.  All of these verses are dealing with those who have received Christ, which is clear by the context.

Some more verses which make this clear:

and more:

Those who are attached to Christ do not belong to the world, but the world hates those who are attached to Christ.  There are two different classes of people here.

I am not asking whom Jesus was discussing with. Of course, those already attached to Christ, CAN do what you were discussing above.  But there are also those who REFUSE to do what they CAN do.  That's why they are held accountable.

But that's not the issue at hand.

Ephesians 2 doesn't say anything about being attached to Christ, so I don't know why you included this text.

So that you will know they do, read again the verses I provided. And don't close your eyes, so you'll see. And be able to address the issue. Here's the issue:

Again, and for the 4th time:  You had been shown Scriptures that believing can only be done by those who are ALREADY attached to Christ. How so? Because believing is exercising faith, and faith is fruit of the Spirit which only those attached to Christ can bear, because Christ Himself said separate from Him man couldn't bear fruit and can do NOTHING.

But here you are preaching that man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Christ, they can believe because they already have faith even while separate from Christ. Clearly, cart before the horse.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's a text from Paul which makes the same point that John 1:12 makes:

6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, ""Abba", Father." 

7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. (Gal. 4:6-7)

Paul distinguishes between those who are sons of God and those who are slaved.  Those who have faith are the sons of God (see the rest of the chapter), which is the same thing John taught here:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 

[Samie]

Here's a text from Paul which makes the same point that John 1:12 makes:

Paul distinguishes between those who are sons of God and those who are slaved.  Those who have faith are the sons of God (see the rest of the chapter), which is the same thing John taught here:

There's no question that believers are sons of God. Even non-believers are, likewise.  Paul told the Athenians "we are God's offspring". He was identifying himself with the Athenians as being God's children.  And were back to the issue:

Again, and for the 5th time:  You had been shown Scriptures that believing can only be done by those who are ALREADY attached to Christ. How so? Because believing is exercising faith, and faith is fruit of the Spirit which only those attached to Christ can bear, because Christ Himself said separate from Him man couldn't bear fruit and can do NOTHING.

But here you are preaching that man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Christ, they can believe because they already have faith even while separate from Christ. Clearly, cart before the horse.

 

[pnattmbtc]

There's no question that believers are sons of God. Even non-believers are, likewise.  Paul told the Athenians "we are God's offspring". He was identifying himself with the Athenians as being God's children.

Depending upon the context, one could be speaking of a person as a creature God has created (as in your example), or as one who has believed in Christ, as per John or Paul.  For example:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:(John 1:12)

Here John is saying that those who recieve Christ (or, "believe on His name") are sons of God, and Paul, in Galaitans for, discusses two classes of people, sons and slaves, which are those who believe vs. those who do not (Paul goes into detail about this in discussing Hagar and Sara as an allegory of the two covenants).

And were back to the issue:

Again, and for the 5th time:  You had been shown Scriptures that believing can only be done by those who are ALREADY attached to Christ. 

There's no Scripture which says this.

How so? Because believing is exercising faith, and faith is fruit of the Spirit which only those attached to Christ can bear, because Christ Himself said separate from Him man couldn't bear fruit and can do NOTHING.

Believing is exercising faith.  That part is correct.  Faithfullness is the fruit of the Spirit.

New International Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

New Living Translation
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

English Standard Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Berean Study Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Berean Literal Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

New American Standard Bible 
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

International Standard Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

NET Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But the spiritual nature produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

New American Standard 1977 
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

American Standard Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

English Revised Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Also Galaitans 3:2 says the we receive the Holy Spirit by faith, so clearly we cannot receive the faith we need to receive the Holy Spirit by the faith that the Holy Spriit gives us.  You see the problem here, don't you?

But here you are preaching that man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Christ,

The only text I know which speaks of being attached to Christ is John 15.  The context of John 15 is speaking of believers.

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. (John 15:1-14)

Samie: they can believe because they already have faith even while separate from Christ. 

This is nonsensical.  To "have faith" means "to believe," as explained previously.

Clearly, cart before the horse.

You have the cart before the horse.  The scriptures teach the following:

1.If you receive Christ, then you are attached to him (John 15).
2.If you believe in Christ, you become a son of God (John 1:12).
3.If you confess your sins, God is faithful and just to forgive your sins (1 John 1:9).
4.If you believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells in you, and witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8, Galatians 4, also John teaches this).

You are correct in asserting that God has done something for all mankind.  We owe even our earthly life to the cross of Christ.  Even if someone rejects Christ, the ability to do so is of infinite value, such free will being the purchase of Christ's sacrifice.  But you do not appear to have a concept of what justification by faith is about.  There are times where the "faith of Jesus" is being spoken of (both Romans and Galatians cmoe to mind), but there are also time where the faith of the believer is emphasized, and the imperative of faith is explained in many ways.

For example, here is one:

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Revelations 3:20)

Isn't this clear?  Jesus stands at the door of the heart, and knocks.  If we receive Him, then He will enter in and sup with us.  This is justification by faith.

The Gospel can be summed up in this way.  We need Christ.  He knocks at the door of our heart, waiting to come in.  Let's respond!

[Samie]

Depending upon the context, one could be speaking of a person as a creature God has created (as in your example), or as one who has believed in Christ, as per John or Paul.  For example:

Here John is saying that those who recieve Christ (or, "believe on His name") are sons of God, and Paul, in Galaitans for, discusses two classes of people, sons and slaves, which are those who believe vs. those who do not (Paul goes into detail about this in discussing Hagar and Sara as an allegory of the two covenants).

There's no Scripture which says this.

Believing is exercising faith.  That part is correct.  Faithfullness is the fruit of the Spirit.

Also Galaitans 3:2 says the we receive the Holy Spirit by faith, so clearly we cannot receive the faith we need to receive the Holy Spirit by the faith that the Holy Spriit gives us.  You see the problem here, don't you?

The only text I know which speaks of being attached to Christ is John 15.  The context of John 15 is speaking of believers.

This is nonsensical.  To "have faith" means "to believe," as explained previously.

You have the cart before the horse.  The scriptures teach the following:

1.If you receive Christ, then you are attached to him (John 15).
2.If you believe in Christ, you become a son of God (John 1:12).
3.If you confess your sins, God is faithful and just to forgive your sins (1 John 1:9).
4.If you believe in Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells in you, and witness that you are a child of God (Romans 8, Galatians 4, also John teaches this).

You are correct in asserting that God has done something for all mankind.  We owe even our earthly life to the cross of Christ.  Even if someone rejects Christ, the ability to do so is of infinite value, such free will being the purchase of Christ's sacrifice.  But you do not appear to have a concept of what justification by faith is about.  There are times where the "faith of Jesus" is being spoken of (both Romans and Galatians cmoe to mind), but there are also time where the faith of the believer is emphasized, and the imperative of faith is explained in many ways.

For example, here is one:

Isn't this clear?  Jesus stands at the door of the heart, and knocks.  If we receive Him, then He will enter in and sup with us.  This is justification by faith.

The Gospel can be summed up in this way.  We need Christ.  He knocks at the door of our heart, waiting to come in.  Let's respond!

Too long, but that does not make it right. You said in one portion:

Believing is exercising faith.  That part is correct.

So then you believe that believing is exercising faith. Therefore, faith is being exercised when one is believing. Just like feet are being used when one is "walking".  But there are those who have "feet" yet refuse to walk. Same case with one who has faith but refuse to believe.

What I am saying is, we were all attached to Christ, given faith which is fruit of being attached, but not everyone exercises the faith given. Instead of believing, they are overcome by the evil of disbelief or unbelief. In other words, they don't overcome evil with good.

Again, and for the 6th time:  You had been shown Scriptures that believing can only be done by those who are ALREADY attached to Christ. How so? Because believing is exercising faith, and faith is fruit of the Spirit which only those attached to Christ can bear, because Christ Himself said separate from Him man couldn't bear fruit and can do NOTHING.

But here you are preaching that man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Christ, they can believe because they already have faith even while separate from Christ. Clearly, cart before the horse.

[pnattmbtc]

So then you believe that believing is exercising faith. Therefore, faith is being exercised when one is believing. Just like feet are being used when one is "walking". 

No, not at all.  "Feet" are concrete things.  Exercising faith is a mental activity.  These are not at all alike.  It's surprising that you would think of equating these.

But there are those who have "feet" yet refuse to walk. Same case with one who has faith but refuse to believe.

No, because "faith" is not like "feet".  "Faith" would be more akin to having an idea.  It would be like saying that you cannot write out an idea before you have it.  You "have the idea" when you think of it.  You "have faith" when you perceive the love of Christ revealed at the cross and respond to that by giving yourself to Christ.  You cannot respond to the love of Christ revealed at the Christ until you perceive it.

What I am saying is, we were all attached to Christ, given faith which is fruit of being attached, but not everyone exercises the faith given. Instead of believing, they are overcome by the evil of disbelief or unbelief. In other words, they don't overcome evil with good.

I disagree with how you are understanding faith.

Again, and for the 6th time:  You had been shown Scriptures that believing can only be done by those who are ALREADY attached to Christ.

Again, and I guess for the 6th time, no, I have not been shown this.  In John we learn that to believe in Christ is to receive Him.  This is John 1:12:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

John 15 talks about our being attached to Christ, and this is directed to those who have believed in Him:

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Note that He speaks of "friends".  This is an intimate relationship that results from receiving Christ, or believing in Him.  This is what it means to be attached to Christ.

You are trying to give a different meaning to "attached to Christ" than the Scriptures give.  John 15 makes it clear what being attached to Christ looks like.  I've quoted the passage for you to take a look at.  You can see that these are not unbelievers that are attached to Christ.

How so? Because believing is exercising faith,

Yes.

and faith is fruit of the Spirit 

No.

New International Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

New Living Translation
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

English Standard Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Berean Study Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Berean Literal Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

New American Standard Bible 
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

International Standard Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

NET Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
But the spiritual nature produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

New American Standard 1977 
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

American Standard Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

English Revised Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Samie: which only those attached to Christ can bear, because Christ Himself said separate from Him man couldn't bear fruit and can do NOTHING.
 

This is ok, as long as "faithfulness" is understood, as per the above translations, and as long as it is understood that it is by believing in Christ, or receiving Him, that we become attached to him, as John 15 above shows.

But here you are preaching that man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Christ,

John teaches that we become sons of God by believing in His name, by receiving Him, as I quoted above.  John 15 shows that being attached to Christ pertains to believers, as quoted above.

they can believe because they already have faith even while separate from Christ.

Is this a typo?  No, I'm not saying this.  I'm not saying they already have faith even while separate from Christ.  I'm saying the opposite of this.

Clearly, cart before the horse. 

That would be cart before the horse!

What I believe is the following, quoting from someone who has expressed the thought eloquently:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (The Desire of Ages, p. 175)

[Samie]

No, not at all.  "Feet" are concrete things.  Exercising faith is a mental activity.  These are not at all alike.  It's surprising that you would think of equating these.

No, because "faith" is not like "feet".  "Faith" would be more akin to having an idea.  It would be like saying that you cannot write out an idea before you have it.  You "have the idea" when you think of it.  You "have faith" when you perceive the love of Christ revealed at the cross and respond to that by giving yourself to Christ.  You cannot respond to the love of Christ revealed at the Christ until you perceive it.

I disagree with how you are understanding faith.

Again, and I guess for the 6th time, no, I have not been shown this.  In John we learn that to believe in Christ is to receive Him.  This is John 1:12:

John 15 talks about our being attached to Christ, and this is directed to those who have believed in Him:

Note that He speaks of "friends".  This is an intimate relationship that results from receiving Christ, or believing in Him.  This is what it means to be attached to Christ.

You are trying to give a different meaning to "attached to Christ" than the Scriptures give.  John 15 makes it clear what being attached to Christ looks like.  I've quoted the passage for you to take a look at.  You can see that these are not unbelievers that are attached to Christ.

Yes.

No.

This is ok, as long as "faithfulness" is understood, as per the above translations, and as long as it is understood that it is by believing in Christ, or receiving Him, that we become attached to him, as John 15 above shows.

John teaches that we become sons of God by believing in His name, by receiving Him, as I quoted above.  John 15 shows that being attached to Christ pertains to believers, as quoted above.

Is this a typo?  No, I'm not saying this.  I'm not saying they already have faith even while separate from Christ.  I'm saying the opposite of this.

That would be cart before the horse!

What I believe is the following, quoting from someone who has expressed the thought eloquently:

Do you believe God gave faith to every man, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say?

[pnattmbtc]

Do you believe God gave faith to every man, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say?

I take it you have this verse in mind:

For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. (Romans 12:3)

This is talking about believers.  I mean, the context is believers.  Here's the context:

A Living Sacrifice

12 I appeal to you therefore, brothers,[a] by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.[b] 2 Do not be conformed to this world,[c] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[d]

Gifts of Grace

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment,each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members,[e] and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individuallymembers one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads,[f] with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

Marks of the True Christian

9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit,[g] serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.

You're methodology is to take verses from here and there out of context.  That's not a good methodology.  A better methodology would be to study a whole book, like Galatians or Romans or John, and try to understand the theme of the book as a whole.

This is why I questioned your idea of trying to understand the gospel from the book of life.  That's not a good idea.  The verses regarding the book of life are not a theme, but incidental verses in different books which do have a theme.  If your goal is to understand the Gospel, you'd be better off looking at a book as a whole, like John or Galatians or Romans.

I don't know what your view is of Ellen White, but a book like "Steps to Christ" would be very helpful.

Also anything written by A. T. Jones or E. J. Waggoner.

Or, in modern times, Ty Gibson is terrific.

Above you, you should try to have an idea of a big picture, and answer to questions like this:

1.What is the problem that God is trying to fix?

2.How does God solve this problem?

3.What is our part in all of this? 

[Samie]

When I asked: Do you believe God gave faith to every man, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say?

Your reply is a very long one:

I take it you have this verse in mind:

This is talking about believers.  I mean, the context is believers.  Here's the context:

You're methodology is to take verses from here and there out of context.  That's not a good methodology.  A better methodology would be to study a whole book, like Galatians or Romans or John, and try to understand the theme of the book as a whole.

This is why I questioned your idea of trying to understand the gospel from the book of life.  That's not a good idea.  The verses regarding the book of life are not a theme, but incidental verses in different books which do have a theme.  If your goal is to understand the Gospel, you'd be better off looking at a book as a whole, like John or Galatians or Romans.

I don't know what your view is of Ellen White, but a book like "Steps to Christ" would be very helpful.

Also anything written by A. T. Jones or E. J. Waggoner.

Or, in modern times, Ty Gibson is terrific.

Above you, you should try to have an idea of a big picture, and answer to questions like this:

1.What is the problem that God is trying to fix?

2.How does God solve this problem?

3.What is our part in all of this? 

Why can't it be a simple yes, and then, instead of an essay, just a statement or two for an explanation?  But despite your long response, you have not yet directly answered the question asked.  What are you afraid of, brother?

Again, Do you believe God gave faith to every man, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say?

[pnattmbtc]

Why can't it be a simple yes, and then, instead of an essay, just a statement or two for an explanation?  But despite your long response, you have not yet directly answered the question asked.  What are you afraid of, brother?

Again, Do you believe God gave faith to every man, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say?

First of all, I've answered you already.  But secondly, how can you even ask a question like this?  You believe that a Scripture author can be sincere, and even inspired, yet be wrong.  If any inspired author can be wrong, what can't you be wrong?

If you can set aside verses just because you don't understand them and they're contradictory to what you understand, how can you possibly speak of things the Scriptures "EXPLICITLY" say?  You've lost any ability to do so.

Anyway, to address the question again, you must be talking about Romans 12:3.  Is this correct?  If you are going to assert the Scriptures are explicitly saying something, why can't you at least quote what you're talking about?  Or at least answer a direct question asking you if this is the verse you have in mind?

If you're talking about Romans 12:3, here's the context of Romans 12:

12 I appeal to you therefore, brothers,[a] by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.[b] 2 Do not be conformed to this world,[c] but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.[d]

Gifts of Grace

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment,each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members,[e] and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individuallymembers one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads,[f] with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

Marks of the True Christian

9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit,[g] serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.

You see where it says, "Marks of the True Christian"?  This is because it was clear to the editor that this is what Paul had in mind.

Paul is talking to believers.  He is referring to the faith that believers had, which, yes, God gave them.

What is it you think the Scriptures are explicitly saying?  Please quote something.  Present an argument.  Do something.