The Secret Rapture

[8thdaypriest]

There are a whopping lot of people who believe they will suddenly be raptured out of this world, BEFORE all the trouble starts.  Most folks are not prepared to show them why there will be no "secret rapture".  I have posted a study in three parts (so far) on "The Secret Rapture". 

Here's a link to Part One:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/16a-Secret Rapture-Part I.pdf

Here's a link to Part Two:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/16b-Secret Rapture-Part II.pdf

I go in to Darby's teaching, and explain where my belief differs.  I go into the Bible use of two Greek words apokalupsis, and parousia.  Rapturists teach that the parousia (coming) will be the secret coming in presence only, to rapture the church.  And the apokalupsis, will be the glorious coming, to reign on the earth.  The problem is that the use of the words, in the texts, is all wrong.  Here are a couple of examples.

    Matthew 24:37 “As the days of Noah were, so also will the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be.”

    Luke 17:26,30  “As it was in the days of Noah ... so it will be also in the day when the Son of Man is revealed (apokalupsis).

        Matthew says the “parousia” will be like the days of Noah.  Luke says the “apokalupsis” will be like the days of Noah.  Both apostles were quoting Jesus.  Do you think BOTH apostles were describing the SAME event?  And by the way, Noah’s flood was no “secret”.  

    2 Peter 3:12 “looking for and hastening the coming (parousia) of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat.”

        If the “parousia” is the “day of God” - and on that day “the heavens will be dissolved”,
    this cannot be the “secret coming” - “in presence” only.

Adventists may not agree with my belief that the "time, times, and a part" will be the last period of great persecution, which will END at the Voice of God. 

[JoeMo]

Adventists may not agree with my belief that the "time, times, and a part" will be the last period of great persecution, which will END at the Voice of God.

I agree with you, Rachel.  I don't expect to be "raptured" until sometime during the last 1260 days; but prior to the 7 Bowls of God's wrath.  It's possible that no one will be left alive on the planet after the "bowls".

[stinsonmarri]

Well, I don't! It is not Biblical at all. Every eye shall see HIM and those times you gave made no sense Rachael. The 2300 days is Rev 5 that started in 1844 when YAHSHUA move from THE HOLY PLACE into the MOST HOLY to become our LAWYER before THE JUDGE HIS FATHER. There is a Heavenly Courtroom session taken place. YAHSHUA had to save everyone from Adam Eve and now the living, soon the 144,000 and the great multitude. When that is done HE will return and awaken the dead along with the righteous living the 144,000 and the great multitude and those awaken HE promise to see HIM coming also those who pierce HIM. The Bible does not mention anywhere a rapture or anything meaning a rapture. It is so sad to me that when people leave the truth they become filter with things that make no sense. The message given to our Pioneer were suppose to enhance it and understand it more. Instead, we believe EGW was a prophetess even she said she was not! Then the Shepard Rods and other offshoot, instead of staying on the ship learning and correcting our errors. This Church message was build on a strong foundation and no one will move it. Many will leave it and be deceive by false doctrine as Paul predicted but a small group will stand firm and faithful vindicating and holding up the banner of truth. Sticking what was true but understanding it in its simplicity and preparing others to meet HIM when HE comes. Yes, that is why they are call the five wise virgins!

Blessings!

[8thdaypriest]

Well, I don't! It is not Biblical at all. Every eye shall see HIM and those times you gave made no sense Rachael. The 2300 days is Rev 5 that started in 1844 when YAHSHUA move from THE HOLY PLACE into the MOST HOLY to become our LAWYER before THE JUDGE HIS FATHER. There is a Heavenly Courtroom session taken place. YAHSHUA had to save everyone from Adam Eve and now the living, soon the 144,000 and the great multitude. When that is done HE will return and awaken the dead along with the righteous living the 144,000 and the great multitude and those awaken HE promise to see HIM coming also those who pierce HIM. The Bible does not mention anywhere a rapture or anything meaning a rapture. It is so sad to me that when people leave the truth they become filter with things that make no sense. The message given to our Pioneer were suppose to enhance it and understand it more. Instead, we believe EGW was a prophetess even she said she was not! Then the Shepard Rods and other offshoot, instead of staying on the ship learning and correcting our errors. This Church message was build on a strong foundation and no one will move it. Many will leave it and be deceive by false doctrine as Paul predicted but a small group will stand firm and faithful vindicating and holding up the banner of truth. Sticking what was true but understanding it in its simplicity and preparing others to meet HIM when HE comes. Yes, that is why they are call the five wise virgins!

Blessings!

Thank you stinsonmarri, for letting the folks know that my study does not follow the traditional Uriah Smith, SDA pioneers, EGW interpretation.  That will help folks.  Those who absolutely adhere to EGW interpretation can skip my study.  Those who think she may not have known it all, might be interested. 

[Gail]

The longer time goes on, the more unlike an evangelical viewpoint I feel God's last people will be.

[8thdaypriest]

The longer time goes on, the more unlike an evangelical viewpoint I feel God's last people will be.

Hi Gail,

Define "evangelical" for me, would you? 

[Gail]

For me that is principally Baptist

[stinsonmarri]

Thank you stinsonmarri, for letting the folks know that my study does not follow the traditional Uriah Smith, SDA pioneers, EGW interpretation.  That will help folks.  Those who absolutely adhere to EGW interpretation can skip my study.  Those who think she may not have known it all, might be interested. 

Rachel I do not agree with Uriah Smith, but I do agree with EGW and the pioneer on most things but not all. What is the misconception that EGW did not believe in false things. She came out of the Methodist church and brought many of their beliefs with her. If they had accepted the additional light given to them with trying to understand Galatians they would have stayed on the right path. They didn't, Uriah Smith fought EGW and many things was left aside. I know not by anyone but ELOHIM this church has in the beginning the correct and everlasting message. It is the church and not the message that has gone astray. I am staying on the ship through faith, not for family, friends or anyone else. I am allowing THE HOLY SPIRIT to leave me. If I read something that does not make sense then I will show why it does not make sense with the word of ELOHIM!

Be bless and happy Sabbath!

[JoeMo]

Hi Rachel,

I read the first 3 parts of your study. from a 10,000 level I agree with your logic and conclusions.  I have reached basically the same conclusions as you independently.  We could quibble about details, but why?  The only detail worth mentioning is that I believe the harvest will take place sometime during the trumpet period; I don't want to limit it to just prior to the 7th trumpet. I'm thinking maybe after just before the 5th trumpet since the last 3 trumpets are the Three Woes.  But who knows? Time will tell.

[stinsonmarri]

Hi Rachel,

I read the first 3 parts of your study. from a 10,000 level I agree with your logic and conclusions.  I have reached basically the same conclusions as you independently.  We could quibble about details, but why?  The only detail worth mentioning is that I believe the harvest will take place sometime during the trumpet period; I don't want to limit it to just prior to the 7th trumpet. I'm thinking maybe after just before the 5th trumpet since the last 3 trumpets are the Three Woes.  But who knows? Time will tell.

It is fine what you believe, but the Bible says prove it. I have seen any Scriptures to back up your belief!

Blessings!

[Wingnut]

I see the order of end-time events as follows...

First four seals are the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

In the 4th seal alone, one quarter of earth's population dies (Rev 6:8).  That is close to 2 billion people.

That is why I don't get excited by folks who say we have to watch carefully for signs of the end-time.  I will know I am in the end times when one quarter of earth's population dies, as it did during the Black Death of the 13th century.

Following this great dying comes the 5th seal or persecution of God's people when a Mark of the Beast is forced upon those who survived the great dying of the 4th seal. The fifth seal describes the Great Tribulation of the saints.

The sixth seal involves heavenly signs, when debris falls from heaven turning the moon to blood and the sun to sackcloth (not the rubbish blood moons or eclipses story).

It is the sealing of the saint in Rev 7:3 which I believe is the rapture.  Thus I believe in a post tribulation rapture.  The sealed saints are those who have refused The Mark.  They are sealed or hidden from the Trumpet plagues.

The raptured saints are not mentioned again till Rev 14 or when they are about to return to earth with Christ.  With Christ's heavenly armies, all first resurrection saints will watch from the sky as Christ pours out the last 7 vials onto the earth.

 

[JoeMo]

It is fine what you believe, but the Bible says prove it. I have seen any Scriptures to back up your belief!

Blessings!

As you know, it can't be proven; since forecasted future events cannot be proven until they happen.  However, my logic goes like this:

Revelation 6 describes the 7 seals.  It seems that things start to get really bad during/after the 4th seal.  The 1st 4 seals have nothing to do with God's wrath; they are the increasingly evil results of man's wrath on his fellow man.  It is at the 5th seal that we see God get involved.  IMHO, it is during the 5th seal that the trumpets begin to fall.  It is during this time that the 144,000 and the great multitude are sealed.  Rev. 7:9-17 seems to locate them before the throne.  That seems like heaven to me.  How did they get there? Who are the martyrs under the altar at the 5th seal in Rev. 6:9?  How did they get under the altar; and if they are "sleeping", how are they calling out to the Lord?  Could there have been a rapture after the 4th seal?  Just asking.

In Rev. 8, we see the golden censor thrown down to earth, signaling the beginning of God's judgement on the earth.  The first four trumpets make the first 4 seals look like a day at Disneyland.  Basically, a third of the earth is destroyed and the planet is plunger into darkness.  But even this is mild compared to the devastation of the next 3 trumpets (called the woes).  It is in Revelation 9  that great (un)natural disasters and demonic forces are unleashed upon the world, killing another 2 - 3 billion people and terrorizing those who don't die.  Forgiveness must still be available at this time; because we are told that men could still repent; but chose not to.

In Revelation 11, we see the two witnesses (some say the literal Moses and Elijah, some say a figurative Moses and Elijah represented by the end-time churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia - the only churches against which Jesus had nothing to say).  In Revelation 11:11, God says "come up here!"  Is that a command for 2 people or two groups of people?  Possibly a rapture?

In Revelation 14, we see the 144,000 who "HAD BEEN REDEEMED (past tense) from the earth.  Are they already in heaven?  How did they get there?  Then we have the final 3 angels warning; and the proclamation the "Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on".  Then the earth is "harvested".  Is that a rapture of the redeemed?

Then the bowls of wrath are poured out.  I believe it is possible that nothing left on this planet will survive the plagues.  Somehow, God's people must be protected.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:9)

"...for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven,whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1Thess.1:9-10)

"God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1Thess. 5:9)

BTW, if there is a rapture, by looking at scripture I don't believe it will happen until very close to the 2nd coming.  Seals, trumpets and plagues don't have to be evenly spaced - they can come in rapid succession and/or occur simultaneously.  And when the rapture occurs, it will NOT be secret.  But be assured that there will be at least one rapture - when the dead in Christ shall rise first; and we who are left alive are caught up to meet with the Lord in the air.

I know this doesn't quite fit the SDA mold; but I'm OK with that.

For a more detailed (although slightly different) take on the secret rapture, see the study on the secret rapture at www.prophecyviewpoint.com.

[Samie]

It is the sealing of the saint in Rev 7:3 which I believe is the rapture.  Thus I believe in a post tribulation rapture.  The sealed saints are those who have refused The Mark.  They are sealed or hidden from the Trumpet plagues.

The raptured saints are not mentioned again till Rev 14 or when they are about to return to earth with Christ.  With Christ's heavenly armies, all first resurrection saints will watch from the sky as Christ pours out the last 7 vials onto the earth.

Our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ said:

^KJV Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

^NAS Revelation 22:12 "Behold, ^aI am coming quickly, and My ^breward is with Me, ^cto render to every man ¹according to what he has done.

If there is a rapture, wouldn't it appear that the rewarding of EVERY MAN - both the righteous and the unrighteous - will occur at different periods rather than at the 2nd coming, as the above verses seem to indicate?

[Wingnut]

Our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ said:

^KJV Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

^NAS Revelation 22:12 "Behold, ^aI am coming quickly, and My ^breward is with Me, ^cto render to every man ¹according to what he has done.

If there is a rapture, wouldn't it appear that the rewarding of EVERY MAN - both the righteous and the unrighteous - will occur at different periods rather than at the 2nd coming, as the above verses seem to indicate?

I agree with what you say.  There is the rapture, then the return of Christ, when He rewards His saints, then the rest of the dead live after the 1000 year millennium.  But they who have never heard Christ are raised to physical life (Ezek 37) to hear the Word of the LORD.  This is not so much a reward as a judgement or sifting of sheep from goats.  Then Satan is released to sieve the world, they come against Jerusalem, fire comes down from heaven, purges the earth, followed by the New Jerusalem coming down to earth.

[Samie]

I agree with what you say.  There is the rapture, then the return of Christ, when He rewards His saints, then the rest of the dead live after the 1000 year millennium.  But they who have never heard Christ are raised to physical life (Ezek 37) to hear the Word of the LORD.  This is not so much a reward as a judgement or sifting of sheep from goats.  Then Satan is released to sieve the world, they come against Jerusalem, fire comes down from heaven, purges the earth, followed by the New Jerusalem coming down to earth.

It appears from what you are saying that the saints are rewarded ahead of the others. How would you harmonize that with our Savior's own words that He will reward every man at the 2nd Coming? (Please see Matt 16:27 & Rev 22:12)

[8thdaypriest]

I see the order of end-time events as follows...

First four seals are the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

In the 4th seal alone, one quarter of earth's population dies (Rev 6:8).  That is close to 2 billion people.

That is why I don't get excited by folks who say we have to watch carefully for signs of the end-time.  I will know I am in the end times when one quarter of earth's population dies, as it did during the Black Death of the 13th century.

Following this great dying comes the 5th seal or persecution of God's people when a Mark of the Beast is forced upon those who survived the great dying of the 4th seal. The fifth seal describes the Great Tribulation of the saints.

The sixth seal involves heavenly signs, when debris falls from heaven turning the moon to blood and the sun to sackcloth (not the rubbish blood moons or eclipses story).

It is the sealing of the saint in Rev 7:3 which I believe is the rapture.  Thus I believe in a post tribulation rapture.  The sealed saints are those who have refused The Mark.  They are sealed or hidden from the Trumpet plagues.

The raptured saints are not mentioned again till Rev 14 or when they are about to return to earth with Christ.  With Christ's heavenly armies, all first resurrection saints will watch from the sky as Christ pours out the last 7 vials onto the earth.

 

Hi Wingnut,

I AGREE, that the "saints" will be translated BEFORE the last 7 vials of wrath are poured out.  I believe they will be translated "at the last trump" - which would be the 7th trumpet.

I believe the "saints" will be on earth during the trumpet judgments.  I believe they will be "the two witnesses".  I just finished a study titled "Two Witnesses".  Here's the link: http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/5-The Two Witnesses.pdf

So Wingnut, you believe that the 5th seal, matches with the 1260 days, 42 months, time-times-and a part, wherein the saints will be "given into his hand" (the hand of the little horn)?  Would that be right?

[8thdaypriest]

I'm going to insert my comments in blue.  I haven't learned how to split up quotes, as some of you do.  Maybe someone could teach me that skill.

As you know, it can't be proven; since forecasted future events cannot be proven until they happen.  

"Prophecy is given aforetime, that when it comes to pass you may believe." 

However, my logic goes like this:

Revelation 6 describes the 7 seals.  It seems that things start to get really bad during/after the 4th seal.  The 1st 4 seals have nothing to do with God's wrath; they are the increasingly evil results of man's wrath on his fellow man.  It is at the 5th seal that we see God get involved.  IMHO, it is during the 5th seal that the trumpets begin to fall.  It is during this time that the 144,000 and the great multitude are sealed.  Rev. 7:9-17 seems to locate them before the throne.  That seems like heaven to me.  How did they get there? Who are the martyrs under the altar at the 5th seal in Rev. 6:9?  How did they get under the altar; and if they are "sleeping", how are they calling out to the Lord?  Could there have been a rapture after the 4th seal?  Just asking.

I think the "souls under the alter" is metaphor, and refers to the blood of sacrifices poured out at the base of the Alter in the Courtyard.  These people were obviously martyred.  Paul said of himself, that he was "poured out" as a drink offering.  Abel's blood cried out from the ground", but Abel was NOT ALIVE when his blood cried out (Gen. 4:10).  

In Rev. 8, we see the golden censor thrown down to earth, signaling the beginning of God's judgement on the earth.  The first four trumpets make the first 4 seals look like a day at Disneyland.  Basically, a third of the earth is destroyed and the planet is plunger into darkness.  But even this is mild compared to the devastation of the next 3 trumpets (called the woes).  It is in Revelation 9  that great (un)natural disasters and demonic forces are unleashed upon the world, killing another 2 - 3 billion people and terrorizing those who don't die.  Forgiveness must still be available at this time; because we are told that men could still repent; but chose not to.

In Revelation 11, we see the two witnesses (some say the literal Moses and Elijah, some say a figurative Moses and Elijah represented by the end-time churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia - the only churches against which Jesus had nothing to say).  In Revelation 11:11, God says "come up here!"  Is that a command for 2 people or two groups of people?  Possibly a rapture?

I posted a new study titled "Two Witnesses" at my website.  Here's the link: http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/5-The Two Witnesses.pdf

I believe the "two witnesses" have the character of Smyrna and Philadelphia.  Their "candlestick" was not "removed", while the other 5 were.  So they are the last lights shining.  They have the Moses message: "Remember the Law."  and the Elijah message:  You must choose.  You cannot remain neutral.  (That was also the Joshua message.)  The time period during which they give their witness, is the last 42 months of this age.  Then they are called up to Heaven by the "Voice of God". 

In Revelation 14, we see the 144,000 who "HAD BEEN REDEEMED (past tense) from the earth.  Are they already in heaven?  How did they get there?  Then we have the final 3 angels warning; and the proclamation the "Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on".  Then the earth is "harvested".  Is that a rapture of the redeemed?

Then the bowls of wrath are poured out.  I believe it is possible that nothing left on this planet will survive the plagues.  Somehow, God's people must be protected.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:9)

"...for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven,whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1Thess.1:9-10)

"God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1Thess. 5:9)

BTW, if there is a rapture, by looking at scripture I don't believe it will happen until very close to the 2nd coming.  Seals, trumpets and plagues don't have to be evenly spaced - they can come in rapid succession and/or occur simultaneously.  And when the rapture occurs, it will NOT be secret.  But be assured that there will be at least one rapture - when the dead in Christ shall rise first; and we who are left alive are caught up to meet with the Lord in the air.

I know this doesn't quite fit the SDA mold; but I'm OK with that.

For a more detailed (although slightly different) take on the secret rapture, see the study on the secret rapture at www.prophecyviewpoint.com.

Thanks Joe.  Personally, I prefer the word "translation".  The term "rapture" is not in the Bible, and it has been used by the Baptists to describe something I do not believe in.  I do NOT believe that the redeemed will be "raptured" BEFORE the Antichrist comes to power. 

[8thdaypriest]

I agree with what you say.  There is the rapture, then the return of Christ, when He rewards His saints, then the rest of the dead live after the 1000 year millennium.  But they who have never heard Christ are raised to physical life (Ezek 37) to hear the Word of the LORD.  This is not so much a reward as a judgement or sifting of sheep from goats.  Then Satan is released to sieve the world, they come against Jerusalem, fire comes down from heaven, purges the earth, followed by the New Jerusalem coming down to earth.

I AGREE that those who lived and died in ignorance - for whatever reason (age, mental disability, place, time) will be raised to physical life, to HEAR the word of God, to LEARN of Christ, and then to make their CHOICE.  I believe this will happen at the 8th millennium.  I believe those who died in ignorance will be "the rest of the dead". 

I do NOT believe, as Adventists do, that "the rest of the dead" are the wicked/rebellious from the first 6000 years.  I believe all of the (informed) wicked from the first 6000 years, will be resurrected at the SC, to hear judgment pronounced against them (Daniel 12:1-3).  They will be left to die AGAIN, in the 7 last plagues.  There is NO REASON to resurrect them AGAIN, to pronounce judgment AGAIN, and to execute them by fire AGAIN.  That would serve no purpose. 

Gog/Magog is the rebellion, of those people from "the rest of the dead" who do NOT choose to serve Christ, during the physical extension of their lives, during the 8th millennium.  They were NOT resurrected at the SC.  "The rest of the dead lived NOT again, until the 1000 years were finished"  (Rev. 20).  I read this as, they DID NOT LIVE at the Second Coming.  Why?  Because it was NOT time to judge them.  They died in ignorance, therefore their sins were "covered by the blood of the Lamb" until such time that they become INFORMED. 

The Great White Throne Judgment FOLLOWS the Gog/Magog Battle.  It does not precede it.  The wicked DEAD are not resurrected for that judgment.  That would be a third resurrection.  What is destroyed after the GWTJ, is the "memory" of those wicked people - that which God retains of an individual so that HE can resurrect them.  The point being that non of these wicked people will ever be resurrected again. 

Here's a link to my study on "Final Judgment - Lake of Fire":  http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book%20Chapters/15-Final%20Judgment,%20Lake%20of%20Fire.pdf

Samie and I have debated this extensively, in other threads.  He believes that EVERYONE can be resurrected at the SC, because EVERYONE begins life in a saved condition.  All of those who lived and died in ignorance, will be given eternal life, and will go straight to the eternal Kingdom.  I TOTALLY DISAGREE with his position, which has been debated endlessly in at least 7 threads, since I began posting last year.  I do not believe that ANYONE will get a "free pass" into the Kingdom.  Everyone must CHOOSE whom they will serve!

 

[JoeMo]

Hi Rachel,

Thanks for the feedback.  My response:

1. Yes;  "prophecy is given aforetime, that we may believe".  Thing is, we don't always understand yhe prophecy until the event prophesied either does or doesn't occur.  Onbiously, the Millerite "1884 2nd Coming" interpretation didn't happen.  Is that because the prophecy was false or  that their interptretation was false? I would say the latter.  The prophecy is sure, but we frequently dont "know" the interpretation until the manifestation of the prophecied event.

2. "Souls under the altar" - your allegorical description is entirely reasonable; but using a literal transation, these souls are in heaven.  Arguably, if one chooses a literal translaction, these souls were either translated to heaven; or people do go to heaven right after they die.  Personally, I think your allegorical interpretation is the most likely.

3. "Two Witnesses" - either way you look at it (two individuals or two groups of people), being called up to heaven is a "rapture" or "translation".

4 I agree that translation is a better term than rapture.  I also agree that translation does not occur until AFTER the AntiChrist comes to power.  The entire living church will have to suffer through the first 5 seals and likely the forst 4 trumpets; but they will be gone (or otherwise protected) from earth when the seven bowls fall.

[Wingnut]

It appears from what you are saying that the saints are rewarded ahead of the others. How would you harmonize that with our Savior's own words that He will reward every man at the 2nd Coming? (Please see Matt 16:27 & Rev 22:12)

Below is a quote from 1 Thessalonians 4

It implies that the dead in Christ rise a split second before those still alive at His second coming.

For this to happen, those who are raptured at the 6th seal are included among "even so them which sleep in Christ" or the dead (vs 14).

I believe those who are raptured, are like Enoch and Elijah, asleep in heaven.  They just do not see death.

At the 7th trumpet blast, in quick succession, the "quick and the dead" are raised (in the reverse order, dead first).

These Firstfruits then watch Christ pour out the 7 last vial plagues on the earth.  Only after the last vial does Christ descend with his saints, stand on the Mt of Olives, and rule all those remaining on earth during the Millennium.  Yes there are folks remaining all around the earth, since it is at Armageddon or around the valley of Megiddo only that there is "utter destruction". Zech 14:16 states specifically there are nations remaining who will come up to keep Feasts during the Millennium.

 

 

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[Samie]

Below is a quote from 1 Thessalonians 4

It implies that the dead in Christ rise a split second before those still alive at His second coming.

For this to happen, those who are raptured at the 6th seal are included among "even so them which sleep in Christ" or the dead (vs 14).

I believe those who are raptured, are like Enoch and Elijah, asleep in heaven.  They just do not see death.

At the 7th trumpet blast, in quick succession, the "quick and the dead" are raised (in the reverse order, dead first).

These Firstfruits then watch Christ pour out the 7 last vial plagues on the earth.  Only after the last vial does Christ descend with his saints, stand on the Mt of Olives, and rule all those remaining on earth during the Millennium.  Yes there are folks remaining all around the earth, since it is at Armageddon or around the valley of Megiddo only that there is "utter destruction". Zech 14:16 states specifically there are nations remaining who will come up to keep Feasts during the Millennium.

I am not really sure of what you are saying above so I am asking this question: Do you believe that every man - both righteous and wicked - will all be rewarded at the Second Coming? Thanks.

[Wingnut]

Hi Wingnut,

I AGREE, that the "saints" will be translated BEFORE the last 7 vials of wrath are poured out.  I believe they will be translated "at the last trump" - which would be the 7th trumpet.

I believe the "saints" will be on earth during the trumpet judgments.  I believe they will be "the two witnesses".  I just finished a study titled "Two Witnesses".  Here's the link: http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/5-The Two Witnesses.pdf

So Wingnut, you believe that the 5th seal, matches with the 1260 days, 42 months, time-times-and a part, wherein the saints will be "given into his hand" (the hand of the little horn)?  Would that be right?

Hi Rachel

I see we are on the same page re. those who never had a chance being the ones described by Rev 20:5.  These are the ignorant who during the 8th millennium are given a chance while Christ rules over the renewed earth.

We also agree with the translation or resurrection from the dead to occur at the 7th trumpet.

 I believe in a rapture at the 6th seal (but just to sleep till the 7th trumpet).

I believe the incorrigibly wicked are resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire which occurs during the 8th milleninium just before New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.  Thus they are part of the dead who lived not again till the 1000 years are past (Rev20:5).  The parable of Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16:25 shows this (third) resurrection to be thrown within seconds into the lake of fire.  Thus I see all the wicked as being burnt up just before New Jerusalem descends.  

I believe it is at the very end that Satan is released to force all those who lived through the millennium, as well as those resurrected to their first real chance to live and accept Christ - all will be tempted to come up and attack Jerusalem.  This is later into the 8th millennium. At this point fire from heaven, or the lake of fire destroys all left on earth who have not accepted Christ.  That includes Gog and Magog.  I believe the few references to Gog and Magog refer to this time.

[Wingnut]

I am not really sure of what you are saying above so I am asking this question: Do you believe that every man - both righteous and wicked - will all be rewarded at the Second Coming? Thanks.

I now get your question Samie.

 "And then" for me stretches from His second coming right into the 8th millennium or period beyond the Millennium.  With God a day is like 1000 years, "and then" is not referring to a moment in time.  Else how can Christ return and reward his saints with eternal life followed much later when we have the rest of the dead rewarded 1000 years later?  

Please don't fall into the trap of taking one verse only and trying to apply it strictly.  I always ask "what does the Bible say?" followed by "What does the Bible ALSO say?".  I know countless folks who were shipwrecked by taking one verse and insisting that is all on the subject.  Such as folks who take "God knoweth ALL things" to mean He knows the future too.  From this they believe the heresy of predestination - based on one scripture. 

 

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[Wingnut]

 

Samie and I have debated this extensively, in other threads.  He believes that EVERYONE can be resurrected at the SC, because EVERYONE begins life in a saved condition.  All of those who lived and died in ignorance, will be given eternal life, and will go straight to the eternal Kingdom.  I TOTALLY DISAGREE with his position, which has been debated endlessly in at least 7 threads, since I began posting last year.  I do not believe that ANYONE will get a "free pass" into the Kingdom.  Everyone must CHOOSE whom they will serve!

 

Rachel - the SDA bible study Lesson 13 (Sept 19-25) titled "Must the whole world hear?" actually leaves the door open to believe as Samie does (Which I agree with you is completely wrong).  This lesson quotes Desire of Ages p 638.  Ask yourself if Ellen is saying what Samie says or not? 

"Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish.  Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required.  Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognised as the children of God" - Ellen G. White.

We had this discussion 3 weeks ago in Church and I could see some leaning to what Samie says, that one can, as a pagan, learn from nature, as a pagan, keep the law (as if keeping the law ever saved a soul), and somehow slip into the kingdom through some door other than Christ (by having a clear conscience- as if having a clear conscience ever saved anyone).  There is only one name given among men whereby we might be saved, and that is Jesus - through adult repentance and baptism (unless you are a thief on the cross, or lived in the Old Testament etc.)  

[Samie]

I now get your question Samie.

 "And then" for me stretches from His second coming right into the 8th millennium or period beyond the Millennium.  With God a day is like 1000 years, "and then" is not referring to a moment in time.  Else how can Christ return and reward his saints with eternal life followed much later when we have the rest of the dead rewarded 1000 years later?  

Please don't fall into the trap of taking one verse only and trying to apply it strictly.  I always ask "what does the Bible say?" followed by "What does the Bible ALSO say?".  I know countless folks who were shipwrecked by taking one verse and insisting that is all on the subject.  Such as folks who take "God knoweth ALL things" to mean He knows the future too.  From this they believe the heresy of predestination - based on one scripture. 

 

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Thanks for the clarification.

For me, I simply believe in what Christ said, even if found in only one verse.  It is only in one verse where He said "My Father is greater than I".  I believe Him. It is only in one verse where He said to the storm "Peace be still", and the storm calmed down. I believe Him.  It is only in one verse where He said "Lazarus come forth", and the dead came forth. I believe Him.

But this case of rewarding every man at the 2nd Coming is NOT only found in one verse, but in many other verses. And I don't have to specify these many other verses scattered throughout Scriptures that every man will be rewarded when Christ comes again, and that is at the Second Coming. I guess you also know where those verses are in Scriptures.