The Secret Rapture

[phkrause]

Many, however, who don't believe there will be a secret rapture, believe in the rewarding of some of the wicked BEFORE Christ returns.  Me thinks this is quite not in consonance with the Savior's own words that when He comes again He will reward every man according to his works. I am not sure whether we are in agreement on this.

Yes we are!

[Samie]

Many, however, who don't believe there will be a secret rapture, believe in the rewarding of some of the wicked BEFORE Christ returns.  Me thinks this is quite not in consonance with the Savior's own words that when He comes again He will reward every man according to his works. I am not sure whether we are in agreement on this.

Yes we are!

Wonderful.

And since you agree with me that the rewarding of some of the wicked BEFORE Christ returns is not in synch with what our Savior said, do you also agree that the 7 last plagues (which is the completion of God's wrath, Rev 15:1) will be the reward of the wicked when Jesus comes again?

[Wingnut]

First your horsemen of the apocalypse doeth not make sense....

...But we are dealing with all who are sealed during this time which we know who some are: Able, Seth, Enoch and all others up to Noah and their sons and wives! Then the horse is black standing for paganism by Nimrod (who is the rider), spreading this belief through out the world. Those saved are those stretching  the way down to the Middle ages period of time. Then the horse or the earth is gray showing that the earth is starting to die. The reason men are taking over the earth and destroying it. But those saved are those during this time are being persecuted by the Catholic Church. Then the horses stop showing that the earth by the number four is north; south; east and west, just like the four corner of the golden altar! Then under the altar are a special group of martyrs that were under the fifth seal who were during the Inquisition of the Catholic Church. The Bible does not mention the mark of the beast all during this time. The sixth seal show signs that are take place from the time knowledge has increase until the 144,000 are sealed not rapture because again the Bible does not indicate that at all!!!!!! The Seventh sealed is the Time of Trouble when the great multitude are save. Here the Bible shows between the first and second woes, the evil angels who were held in prison according to Jude:...

...This is what the Bible states very clearly if we only read and understand what the words actually meant and not speculate and put our spin on it.

Hi stinsonmarri

There are various ways of interpreting Rev.  One is the historical, where one believes that it describes events over the course of thousands of years.  This seems to be the way you interpret (spin  ) it.

I freely admit that I spin or interpret all the events of Rev as beginning at the time of Christ's day.  Thus I see the horsemen as future whereas you see them as past.  I can only give you my reason for believing it is all future by quoting Rev 1:10...

 

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

I researched the word "Lord's day" and found it did not mean the Sabbath, but the "day of the LORD".  It has a particular meaning that it is the day when Christ is coronated or crowned king, which is future.  John describes this coming out or revealing, hence "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" or name of this book.  Notice that the name of the last book of the Bible is not "The Revelation of John".

Thus all events in rev which John saw I see as occurring "on the Lord's day" which is yet future.  I don't see that as spin, but as reading it for what it says.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Wingnut

[Wingnut]

Praise God for that, brother.  I guess there are yet other issues we do agree on:  Sabbath & health reform maybe.

Many, however, who don't believe there will be a secret rapture, believe in the rewarding of some of the wicked BEFORE Christ returns.  Me thinks this is quite not in consonance with the Savior's own words that when He comes again He will reward every man according to his works. I am not sure whether we are in agreement on this.

The rapture is not a rewarding of any one any more than the translation of Enoch and Elijah being translated to heaven.

In other words, there is no difference between a translation and a rapture.

How do you explain two in a bed, one taken, one left, two in a field...?

[Samie]

The rapture is not a rewarding of any one any more than the translation of Enoch and Elijah being translated to heaven.

In other words, there is no difference between a translation and a rapture.

How do you explain two in a bed, one taken, one left, two in a field...?

Simple. The taking and the leaving occur at the Second Coming.  The one rewarded with life eternal and taken to heaven; the other left to suffer the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues.

[phkrause]

Wonderful.

And since you agree with me that the rewarding of some of the wicked BEFORE Christ returns is not in synch with what our Savior said, do you also agree that the 7 last plagues (which is the completion of God's wrath, Rev 15:1) will be the reward of the wicked when Jesus comes again?

No I don't

[Samie]

No I don't

Ok. That's where we part ways. I respect your position, brother.

[stinsonmarri]

Well, I will make it very simple, Wingnut the Bible is not complicated at all. It is what you want to interpreter, when Bible clearly says there is no private interpretation. You want to make the Bible like the pagan have always done with their false belief mythical and far fetch. The Bible said to seek understand through knowledge and that is why YAHSHUA said there was five wise virgins and five foolish. The wise will understand but the foolish will accept delusional and mythical doctrines. My pray go out to you and Rachel. When we leave the truth we are acceptable to believe a lie and Satan sits back and rejoices. Those on the ship also keep holding on to their errors as well without proving if what we once believe is correct. YAHSHUA told them in vain do the worship HIM teaching the doctrines and traditions of men. Yes Samie I pray for you as well because I believe that you are sincere. But remember Eli he was too but he would not correct error as well! Oh I pray for all and I need prayer as well because the time is short and things are about to come to the Time of Trouble quicker them we think!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

I surmise the texts provided are sufficient enough for the issue tackled.  There is no secret rapture because everyone will be rewarded according to his works when Jesus comes, not before He comes as would be the case if there would be a secret rapture.

I apologize, I was not putting you down just want to put my too sense in. lol

Blessings!

[Samie]

I apologize, I was not putting you down just want to put my too sense in. lol

Blessings!

That's alright, Sister.

[Wingnut]

Well, I will make it very simple, Wingnut the Bible is not complicated at all. It is what you want to interpreter, when Bible clearly says there is no private interpretation. You want to make the Bible like the pagan have always done with their false belief mythical and far fetch. The Bible said to seek understand through knowledge and that is why YAHSHUA said there was five wise virgins and five foolish. The wise will understand but the foolish will accept delusional and mythical doctrines. My pray go out to you and Rachel. When we leave the truth we are acceptable to believe a lie and Satan sits back and rejoices. Those on the ship also keep holding on to their errors as well without proving if what we once believe is correct. YAHSHUA told them in vain do the worship HIM teaching the doctrines and traditions of men. Yes Samie I pray for you as well because I believe that you are sincere. But remember Eli he was too but he would not correct error as well! Oh I pray for all and I need prayer as well because the time is short and things are about to come to the Time of Trouble quicker them we think!

Blessings!

You still have not told me the secret to your being able to tell that the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse (even their name "apocalypse" implies future) are references to history, not the future.  How do you know I am wrong and you are right?

[Wingnut]

While I am waiting for stinsonmarri to  explain her way of interpreting scripture (especially prophecy) what I do is compare one section of prophecy in say Matt 24 with another one (in say Revelation).  If they seem to be speaking of the same time, and if the prophecies seem to be in the same order, then maybe there is a one-to-one correlation.  This is what I have done below, and that is how I come to my "private interpretation" of what the white horse means.  I took this post from the redeemed spending the millennium thread but it illustrates the principle.

 

I have laid Matt 24 side by side with Rev. and they are parallel accounts up till the 6th seal when Matt 24 goes silent.

For the saints, the age ends at the 6th trump.

Or in Christ's words, "BUT FOR THE ELECT those days will be shortened".  Not for the wicked.  They have to suffer through the 7th seal, which comprises 7 trumpets, the last trumpet comprises 7 vials.  This all lasts an extra few years of suffering on earth, for those with the mark.

I believe the one taken, the other left is a secret event, unlike the lightning shining from E to W 7th trump event when the dead in Christ rise, followed by converts still on earth converted by the 2 witnesses who preach up till just before the 7th trump.

Here then are the parallels between Matt 24 and Rev. as I see them.

 

what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. = First seal, white horse.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: = Second seal, red horse.

and there shall be famines, = Third seal, black horse

and pestilences, = Fourth seal, pale horse

 

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. = Fifth seal

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. = when the saints flee to the mountains, hoping it not on a Sabbath, to escape persecution.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.  

It is at this point that God raptures the saints away to heaven, thus for the elect, those days end (are shortened).

They see the sun turn to black and the moon to blood, the heaven depart as a scroll as Christ comes for them.  The heathen fear these signs, but for the elect it is a sign of blessed relief from persecution and martyrdom.

The whole of Rev 7 is about the sealing away of his chosen 144000 and an innumerable multitude.

Because they are sealed away in heaven (raptured), far from harm, Christ ends Matt 24 here.

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

Hey Wingnut.  You seem to have made many of the same deductions as I have.  Mine were influenced by a book called "The Pre-Wrath Rapture  of the Church" by Marvin Rosenthal.  Have you ever read that book?  I believe that Rachel has.

To sort of fine-tune your reference to the first horeman, I thing he is the revelation of the identity of the antichrist (alternative - beast) to those who are watching.

[Wingnut]

Hey Wingnut.  You seem to have made many of the same deductions as I have.  Mine were influenced by a book called "The Pre-Wrath Rapture  of the Church" by Marvin Rosenthal.  Have you ever read that book?  I believe that Rachel has.

To sort of fine-tune your reference to the first horeman, I thing he is the revelation of the identity of the antichrist (alternative - beast) to those who are watching.

JoeMo, no I have not.  I am leaning towards the white horse representing Christianity worldwide getting together for a crusade, say against the muslims.  The horseman looks like a crusader.  I have not thought about what you suggest, but what you say could make sense if this antichrist leads the crusade. The crusades of old sounded like a good idea, but were terrible and useless.  They also focused on the muslims.

I am just a prophecy hobbyist so what do I know, but if some charismatic religious leader called on Christians to take up arms and go and subdue the Middle East for Christ, he may have a lot of takers.  And he could even get the Jews on board, offer to build a temple etc.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Wingnut

[JoeMo]

I am just a prophecy hobbyist so what do I know, but if some charismatic religious leader called on Christians to take up arms and go and subdue the Middle East for Christ, he may have a lot of takers.  And he could even get the Jews on board, offer to build a temple etc.

Don't sell yourself short, Bro.

Your open mind makes you more of a "pro"

than you might know.

Now that's poetry!

[8thdaypriest]

Well, I will make it very simple, Wingnut the Bible is not complicated at all. It is what you want to interpreter, when Bible clearly says there is no private interpretation. You want to make the Bible like the pagan have always done with their false belief mythical and far fetch. The Bible said to seek understand through knowledge and that is why YAHSHUA said there was five wise virgins and five foolish. The wise will understand but the foolish will accept delusional and mythical doctrines. My pray go out to you and Rachel. When we leave the truth we are acceptable to believe a lie and Satan sits back and rejoices. Those on the ship also keep holding on to their errors as well without proving if what we once believe is correct. YAHSHUA told them in vain do the worship HIM teaching the doctrines and traditions of men. Yes Samie I pray for you as well because I believe that you are sincere. But remember Eli he was too but he would not correct error as well! Oh I pray for all and I need prayer as well because the time is short and things are about to come to the Time of Trouble quicker them we think!

Blessings!

stinsonmarri believes "the truth" is what EGW said, and what SDAs teach.  We have "left the truth" in her estimation.  That is why no one should believe a word we say.  We've become tools for Satan. 

Comments like THAT would quickly SHUT DOWN all theological and eschatological discussion. 

[8thdaypriest]

 

Jesus said the events of the Second Coming will be like the days of Noah , not like the days of Sodom  A feature of this is that like Noah, the righteous living will go through the plagues as Noah went through the flood.

The Bible notes that only those that receive the mark of the beast will be directly affect by the last plagues. Those that receive the mark of God are spared, not raptured away.

Note the following verses:

Ezek 9:4          And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.   9:5   And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Ezek   9:6       Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house. 

 

Rev  7:2          And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,   7:3      Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.   7:4     And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 

 

Dan 12:1         And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 

Matt  24:21      For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.   24:22           And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 

And then, after these eevents Jesus comes- not before

 

Matt 24:30       And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.   24:31    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

 

 

Jackson, 

In Great Controversy pg. 628 Mrs White said, "These plagues are not universal" - describing the 7 last plagues. 

Back when I used to believe that Mrs White's writings were infallible, I read this and wondered if she was actually shown the people of God, during the trumpet judgments, which ARE Satan's counterfeit LAST plagues.  The trumpets are NOT universal, and are VERY similar to the 7 last plagues. 

I DO BELIEVE the people of God will be on this earth for the trumpets. 

Revelation 15:1 "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, . . . 

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. . . .  16:1  And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. (KJV)

Just reading the text, it sure appears like the redeemed are standing on the "sea of glass" (which is before the throne) WHEN the command is given to the 7 angels, to pour our God's wrath upon the earth. 

[Wingnut]

stinsonmarri believes "the truth" is what EGW said, and what SDAs teach.  We have "left the truth" in her estimation.  That is why no one should believe a word we say.  We've become tools for Satan. 

Comments like THAT would quickly SHUT DOWN all theological and eschatological discussion. 

Stinsonmarri wrote "But we are dealing with all who are sealed during this time which we know who some are: Able, Seth, Enoch and all others up to Noah and their sons and wives! Then the horse is black standing for paganism by Nimrod (who is the rider), spreading this belief through out the world. Those saved are those stretching  the way down to the Middle ages period of time. Then the horse or the earth is gray showing that the earth is starting to die. The reason men are taking over the earth and destroying it. But those saved are those during this time are being persecuted by the Catholic Church. Then the horses stop showing that the earth by the number four is north; south; east and west, just like the four corner of the golden altar!"

The order of the horses is white, red, black, pale in Rev, and apart from the white horse, the interpretation is given for each horse, which does not sound anything like the above.  So I am still wondering where she got this interpretation which she claims is not a "private interpretation".

[Wingnut]

What is a "private interpretation" of scripture?

Let us take as an example of a scripture, Rev 6:7-8

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Ask a 10 year old child to read this and explain to you what it seems to be saying, and the child will say that this passage seems to be speaking about death by war (sword) famine (hunger) and some other means involving animals which seems to kill 1/4 (the fourth part) of the earth's population.  

 

Now go to a big corporation's website, and this is what they say about these two verses.

 

"6:7-8 The 4^th Seal: A Pale Horse: The Dead Church. This pale horse is the color of nausea and death. The Church that should have been pointing the way to eternal life was instead spreading death. “And Hell [the grave] followed with him.” The spiritual “Death” that spread across Christendom was accompanied by a moral and intellectual paralysis. The Holy Scriptures were forbidden to the people; nobles, commoners and clergy alike were largely ignorant of the great truths they contain. For centuries the Christian world made no progress in science, arts or civilization. Millions lived miserable lives of ignorance and squalor. 

Ezekiel 14:21 lists war, famine, pestilence, and wild beasts as judgments on apostasy from God. Whenever the Church takes up the sword to coerce the conscience, a famine of God’s Word results. Pure Bible truth is replaced with the pestilence of heresy, opening the way for persecutors (wild beasts) to punish and chastise the Church, and multitudes perish."

The question then becomes, which of the two has the "private interpretation".

The child has just told you what he/she reads without "private interpretation" (creativity).  The child is telling you what just naturally jumps out from the pages.  I say that this child has "the spirit of literacy" - meaning that he/she can read.  The child is not embellishing. 

It takes a big corporation and a lot of "private interpretation" (creativity) to come up with the second interpretation.

I hope this illustrates what a "private interpretation" is.

 

 

 

[Wingnut]

Don't sell yourself short, Bro.

Your open mind makes you more of a "pro"

than you might know.

Now that's poetry!

That is poetry.

There was a poster called Joe

Who joined Clubadventist to grow

After following this thread,

on the quick and the dead, 

He feels more confused instead.

 

[8thdaypriest]

 

I agree, it looks that way if you use only the verses you quoted and assume they are in a continuous time line.. But scripture doesn't contradict scripture so  we have to compare these verses with others of a more clear meaning to see if the events in Rev 15 are sequential or not.

 

 

 

 

 

First of all , i do not know why you would assume the plagues are universal. If they were no one would survive them. But we know when Jesus comes wicked men  will be burned up by the brightness of his coming.

 

 

 

 

 

2 THESSALONIANS 1:

 

 

7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels," 8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

 

 

2 THESSALONIANS 2:

 

 

8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

 

 

 

 

Now if the Lord comes before the plagues as you believe, then by destroying the wicked by the brightness of his coming, there would be no one left on earth to received the plagues. The plagues then, would be meaningless.

 

 

 

 

 

So Jesus must come after  the plagues and the plagues must not be universal because at His coming the righteous living  are  translated  and the wicked still living are burned up at the brightness of His coming.

 

 

 

 

 

Additional texts attesting to this:

 

 

Matt 24:30       And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

 

 

 

 

Matt 24:21       For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  (and Rachel agreed in an earlier post that this tribulation referred to the last plagues)    24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

 

 

 

 

If the days of the plagues are shortened for the elect's sake, then the elect are on earth during the plagues. And if the wicked  are burned up at Jesus' coming, then some of the wicked along with the righteous survive the plagues.  The plagues are, therefore, not universal.

 

 

 

 

 

The SOP is in agreement with these verses of scripture:

  These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy.  {GC 628.2}

 

 

Jackson,

The "fire" can be the glory of God, AND it can also be the physical "fire" that will consume the earth.  It can also be a metaphor for hatred. 

The "fire" that consumed Nadab and Abihu was instant.  Same with the 250 princes.  The "fire" that finally "consumes" the wicked at the SC, may be the result of a chain reaction which begins with the SC.  Rev. says, concerning the "great whore", "therefore let her plagues come in ONE DAY".  What DAY would that be?  I believe it is the SC.  THAT is the DAY, when the 10 Kings realize she has deceived them, and they turn on her, to burn her with fire. 

We may be talking about more than one KIND of fire, in these prophecies. 

In Rev. a sword comes from the mouth of Jesus riding a white horse.  With this sword HE will slay the wicked.  Is this LITERAL?  Does HE kill the wicked with His sword, or with fire?  I think there's just too much, that we don't yet understand. 

I believe that physical "fire" will finally consume what remains of this earth, its "works" and all people who do not go with Jesus, to the Father's House. 

It is a process, which begins with Jesus appearance, and continues until the earth is "without form and void". 

God also said - concerning Satan - "I will bring a fire from inside you.  It will consume you."  THAT is talking about hatred.  THAT doesn't happen instantly.  Satan will be tormented in the "lake of fire" "unto the age of the ages". 

[JoeMo]

I DO BELIEVE the people of God will be on this earth for the trumpets. 

I totally agree - at least for the first 4 trumpets.

I read this and wondered if she was actually shown the people of God, during the trumpet judgments, which ARE Satan's counterfeit LAST plagues.  The trumpets are NOT universal, and are VERY similar to the 7 last plagues. 

I'm not so sure about this.  The first 4 trumpets certainly seem like a meteor or comet strike; and could occur simultaneously or in rapid succession.  The 5th and 6th trumpet sure seem to be demonically inspired. The 5th Trumpet has a definite time period - 5 months.

 I think the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th plague are all different ways of explaining the same event.

Like I said before; this is my opinion now; and I reserve the right to change it at any time when presented with a better scenario that make more scriptural sense.

[8thdaypriest]

 

First of all , i do not know why you would assume the plagues are universal. If they were no one would survive them. But we know when Jesus comes wicked men  will be burned up by the brightness of his coming.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:

7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels," 8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

2 THESSALONIANS 2:

8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

Now if the Lord comes before the plagues as you believe, then by destroying the wicked by the brightness of his coming, there would be no one left on earth to received the plagues. The plagues then, would be meaningless.

So Jesus must come after  the plagues and the plagues must not be universal because at His coming the righteous living  are  translated  and the wicked still living are burned up at the brightness of His coming.  

If the days of the plagues are shortened for the elect's sake, then the elect are on earth during the plagues. And if the wicked  are burned up at Jesus' coming, then some of the wicked along with the righteous survive the plagues.  The plagues are, therefore, not universal.

The SOP is in agreement with these verses of scripture:

  These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy.  {GC 628.2}

 

Why would I think the plagues ARE universal.

1.  The trumpets ARE plagues.  And they are limited in scope to  1/3, 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.  Jesus comes at the 7th - or "last trump". 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."  (NKJ)

At the 7th trumpet - the kingdoms of this world HAVE BECOME Christs.

It is TIME TO "reward Your servants" and TIME TO "destroy those who destroy the earth".    WHEN are God's servants rewarded?  At His coming. 

John sees them "stand on the sea of glass" signing a victory song (Rev. 15:1-4).  Where is the sea of glass?  Answer:  before the throne of God in Heaven. 

THEN the wrath plagues - the vial plagues are poured out on the earth.  1.  a loathsome sore came upon those who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.  Who will worship the Beast or his image?  Answer:  Rev. 13:7-8  "And authority was given him (the Beast) over EVERY tribe, tongue and nation.  And ALL who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb."  

"If ANYONE worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark  . . he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation".    Rev 14:9-10

If everyone worships the Beast and his image (except those sealed of God) THEN the vial plagues would be universal.  The REASON why they do not harm those sealed of God is because the redeemed were called up to Heaven by the voice of God, when the last trumpet sounds. 

[Samie]

8thdaypriest:

Just reading the text, it sure appears like the redeemed are standing on the "sea of glass" (which is before the throne) WHEN the command is given to the 7 angels, to pour our God's wrath upon the earth. 

Jackson:

I agree, it looks that way if you use only the verses you quoted and assume they are in a continuous time line.. But scripture doesn't contradict scripture so  we have to compare these verses with others of a more clear meaning to see if the events in Rev 15 are sequential or not.

First of all , i do not know why you would assume the plagues are universal. If they were no one would survive them. But we know when Jesus comes wicked men  will be burned up by the brightness of his coming.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:

7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels," 8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

2 THESSALONIANS 2:

8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 First of all, there is nothing in the Bible that says when Christ comes again, all the unrighteous "will be burned up by the brightness of his coming." 2 Thess 1:7 does not say what you say it says:

^NIV 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8   ⁶ God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you  ⁷ and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.  ⁸ He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Your reference to 2 Thess 2:8 as proof text that all the unrighteous "will be burned up by the brightness of his coming" is likewise unwarranted. The verse speaks of only the "Lawless One", NOT "All Lawless":

 ^NIV 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Instead, those verses tell us that when He comes again, the Lord will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel with everlasting destruction (2 Thess 1:9).  This is in reference to the 7 last plagues, as 8thdaypriest correctly observed in Rev 15 & 16. The conclusion of the 7 last plagues (which is the completion of God's wrath. Rev 15:1) is the Battle of Armageddon (Rev 19:11-21).

[8thdaypriest]

You keep overlooking scripture which shows the righteous have the mark of God so that they will be protected during the last plagues.

  

 

Jackson,

Yes - the righteous are "marked" with the "seal" of God. 

But the Scripture reference where demons are specifically commanded NOT to harm anyone with the seal is Revelation 9:4, which is speaking of something that HAPPENS under the 5th trumpet.  There is no mention of the sealed, on earth DURING the vial or wrath plagues. 

The righteous are translated, (or resurrected first and then translated) to heaven AT THE 7TH TRUMPET. 

Edited October 17, 2015 by 8thdaypriest