LifeHiscost Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Thanks for the clarification. But this case of rewarding every man at the 2nd Coming is NOT only found in one verse, but in many other verses. And I don't have to specify these many other verses scattered throughout Scriptures that every man will be rewarded when Christ comes again, and that is at the Second Coming. I guess you also know where those verses are in Scriptures. Sometimes we make the mistake of believing it has to be either/or instead of and /and. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Wingnut Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Thanks for the clarification. For me, I simply believe in what Christ said, even if found in only one verse. It is only in one verse where He said "My Father is greater than I". I believe Him. It is only in one verse where He said to the storm "Peace be still", and the storm calmed down. I believe Him. It is only in one verse where He said "Lazarus come forth", and the dead came forth. I believe Him. But this case of rewarding every man at the 2nd Coming is NOT only found in one verse, but in many other verses. And I don't have to specify these many other verses scattered throughout Scriptures that every man will be rewarded when Christ comes again, and that is at the Second Coming. I guess you also know where those verses are in Scriptures. What you say sounds well and good, but how do you include Rev 20:5 into your beliefs. Quote
Wingnut Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Thanks for the clarification. For me, I simply believe in what Christ said, even if found in only one verse. It is only in one verse where He said "My Father is greater than I". I believe Him. It is only in one verse where He said to the storm "Peace be still", and the storm calmed down. I believe Him. It is only in one verse where He said "Lazarus come forth", and the dead came forth. I believe Him. But this case of rewarding every man at the 2nd Coming is NOT only found in one verse, but in many other verses. And I don't have to specify these many other verses scattered throughout Scriptures that every man will be rewarded when Christ comes again, and that is at the Second Coming. I guess you also know where those verses are in Scriptures. I was referring to the phrase "and then" which you interpreted to mean "at that one time only" Here is a verse with "and then" which by exactly the same way you interpret means that fasting is to take place ONLY when Christ was taken away. Matthew 9:15 | View whole chapter | See verse in context And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast Are you consistent in your translation that exactly at that time only when Christ is taken to heaven, that is the ONLY time his disciples fast. If so thanks, because fasting never was very appealing to me. The above verse could sound like a specific time, or it could refer to time stretching over millennia. That is why I look to "What does the Bible ALSO say" to find if fasting is still relevant today. Quote
Samie Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 What you say sounds well and good, but how do you include Rev 20:5 into your beliefs. It's included, brother, without leaving out v4. v4 tells us that the righteous will spend 1000 years alive and reigning with Christ but the rest will remain dead and will not live again until the 1000 years are ended, as per v5. Why would they, the unrighteous, not live again? Because just like the righteous, the unrighteous dead were also resurrected at the Second Coming. With the dead both righteous and wicked resurrected, all are alive to receive their own reward: the righteous are rewarded with life eternal and ushered to heaven for the wedding of the Lamb. The unrighteous will be rewarded with the 7 last plagues, the final phase of which is the Battle of Armageddon where all unrighteous will be slain (see Rev 19:11-21). Did you notice In v21 the words "the rest were slain"? This same group of people are the ones who are not to live again until the 1000 years are ended. That all will be resurrected at the Second Coming seems clear to me, as per these words of our Savior: KJVJohn 5:28-29 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. The resurrection of both just and unjust Paul speaks of likewise: KJV Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. That they will be rewarded according to what each has done is described as occurring in the same period: Romans 2:5-8 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath The righteous gets the reward of eternal life; the wicked gets their reward: the wrath of God which is the 7 last plagues, at the culmination of which is the battle of Armageddon where all the wicked will be slain. Jesus Himself said that the day when every man will be rewarded according to what each has done is when He comes again: NAS Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. The strength of Scriptural evidence that every man - righteous and wicked - gets rewarded at the Second Coming cannot just be taken for granted. Quote
Samie Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 I was referring to the phrase "and then" which you interpreted to mean "at that one time only" Here is a verse with "and then" which by exactly the same way you interpret means that fasting is to take place ONLY when Christ was taken away. Matthew 9:15 | View whole chapter | See verse in context And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast Are you consistent in your translation that exactly at that time only when Christ is taken to heaven, that is the ONLY time his disciples fast. If so thanks, because fasting never was very appealing to me. The above verse could sound like a specific time, or it could refer to time stretching over millennia. That is why I look to "What does the Bible ALSO say" to find if fasting is still relevant today. I guess I have already addressed your above concern in my previous post. Quote
Wingnut Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 It's included, brother, without leaving out v4. v4 tells us that the righteous will spend 1000 years alive and reigning with Christ but the rest will remain dead and will not live again until the 1000 years are ended, as per v5. Why would they, the unrighteous, not live again? Because just like the righteous, the unrighteous dead were also resurrected at the Second Coming. With the dead both righteous and wicked resurrected, all are alive to receive their own reward: the righteous are rewarded with life eternal and ushered to heaven for the wedding of the Lamb. The unrighteous will be rewarded with the 7 last plagues, the final phase of which is the Battle of Armageddon where all unrighteous will be slain (see Rev 19:11-21). Did you notice In v21 the words "the rest were slain"? This same group of people are the ones who are not to live again until the 1000 years are ended. Now taking strictly what you are telling me, that the unrighteous are resurrected at the 7th trumpet, tortured with the 7 vial plagues, killed at Armageddon, and then raised from the dead after the Millennium (presumably to be further punished, or extinguished), then technically they are being rewarded 1000 years after Christ's second coming - just as I originally said. People are being "rewarded" at Christ's second coming, and still 1000 years later. I don't want to put words into your mouth, but would you like to tell me what happens to those resurrected in Rev 20:5 so that this does not involve rewarding. Something must happen to those resurrected in Rev 20:5, therefore they MUST, by pure logic, be "rewarded" 1000 years after Christ's second coming, in some way. Therefore all rewarding is not done all at one time viz. the second coming. Also a problem you have is with all the folks living DURING the millennium (see Zech 14). These folks being born and living during the millennium are being judged and rewarded after the second coming. This then is another group being rewarded at yet another time, presumably with eternal life at the end of the millennium. For those who don't accept Christ during the Millennium, there will be yet another day of wrath at the end of the millennium. Which if I am not mistaken, contradicts your quotes of Rom 2:5-8 that there is only one "THE day of wrath". Quote
Samie Posted October 5, 2015 Posted October 5, 2015 Now taking strictly what you are telling me, that the unrighteous are resurrected at the 7th trumpet, tortured with the 7 vial plagues, killed at Armageddon, and then raised from the dead after the Millennium (presumably to be further punished, or extinguished), then technically they are being rewarded 1000 years after Christ's second coming - just as I originally said. People are being "rewarded" at Christ's second coming, and still 1000 years later. I guess that's not what you originally said. I remember you talking about the rapture where some saints are involved, and that they will be taken to heaven and to return with Jesus at the Second Coming. So you have the rewarding of some saints before the second coming, whereas the Lord said that when the Son of Man comes AND THEN He shall reward EVERY MAN according to his works. I have told you showing Scriptures that at the Second Coming all dead are resurrected and with those still living, every person born into this planet will see Him come in the clouds (Rev 1:7), present and ready to receive his own reward: the righteous with eternal life and ushered to heaven for the wedding of the Lamb; the wicked are rewarded with the wrath of God, the 7 last plagues which will consummate at the battle of Armageddon where all wicked will be slain. That every man is rewarded at the second coming is in consonance with the words of our Lord Himself that when He comes again He will reward each one according to what each has done. Now taking strictly what you are telling me, that the unrighteous are resurrected at the 7th trumpet, tortured with the 7 vial plagues, killed at Armageddon, and then raised from the dead after the Millennium (presumably to be further punished, or extinguished), then technically they are being rewarded 1000 years after Christ's second coming - just as I originally said. People are being "rewarded" at Christ's second coming, and still 1000 years later. I don't want to put words into your mouth, but would you like to tell me what happens to those resurrected in Rev 20:5 so that this does not involve rewarding. Something must happen to those resurrected in Rev 20:5, therefore they MUST, by pure logic, be "rewarded" 1000 years after Christ's second coming, in some way. Therefore all rewarding is not done all at one time viz. the second coming. The resurrection of the wicked in Rev 20:5 is to annihilate them in the Lake of Fire which is their Second Death. Their First Death is at the battle of Armageddon, the consummation of the 7 last plagues. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted October 5, 2015 Author Posted October 5, 2015 Hi Rachel I see we are on the same page re. those who never had a chance being the ones described by Rev 20:5. These are the ignorant who during the 8th millennium are given a chance while Christ rules over the renewed earth. We also agree with the translation or resurrection from the dead to occur at the 7th trumpet. I believe in a rapture at the 6th seal (but just to sleep till the 7th trumpet). I believe the incorrigibly wicked are resurrected to be thrown into the lake of fire which occurs during the 8th milleninium just before New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. Thus they are part of the dead who lived not again till the 1000 years are past (Rev20:5). The parable of Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16:25 shows this (third) resurrection to be thrown within seconds into the lake of fire. Thus I see all the wicked as being burnt up just before New Jerusalem descends. I believe it is at the very end that Satan is released to force all those who lived through the millennium, as well as those resurrected to their first real chance to live and accept Christ - all will be tempted to come up and attack Jerusalem. This is later into the 8th millennium. At this point fire from heaven, or the lake of fire destroys all left on earth who have not accepted Christ. That includes Gog and Magog. I believe the few references to Gog and Magog refer to this time. I do not agree with the part in red, Wingnut. I don't believe those resurrected to hear judgment against them, and then executed at the SC will EVER be resurrected again. One execution was enough. As for the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, that parable was about the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews were "rich" in the things of God, while the Gentiles had been "poor" and "unclean" (covered with sores). But the Gentiles believed on Jesus when most of the Jews rejected Him, hence the beggar went to "the bosom of Abraham" (where every good Jews wanted to go) and the Rich Man went to "torment". And they will be "tormented" when they realize that they missed it. JoeMo 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted October 5, 2015 Author Posted October 5, 2015 Will ANYONE live through the 7 wrath plagues? As I understand it, by the END of the 7 wrath plagues, there is NO oxygen (because there is no vegetation, and no sea life). There is NO clean water. (All streams turned to blood.) There is NO food (because all vegetation was burned up). No sunlight (because the earth was "moved out of it's place"). and No atmosphere (the sky is split open). EVERY mountain and island are flattened. That would be an earthquake of 12 on the Richter scale, which means the plates ALL become liquid. I watch a lot of National Geographic Channel. I don't see how ANYONE could survive such conditions. Quote 8thdaypriest
Wingnut Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 I guess that's not what you originally said. I remember you talking about the rapture where some saints are involved, and that they will be taken to heaven and to return with Jesus at the Second Coming. So you have the rewarding of some saints before the second coming, whereas the Lord said that when the Son of Man comes AND THEN He shall reward EVERY MAN according to his works. Enoch and Elijah are examples of a rapture. Those raptured at the end are no different to these two. JoeMo 1 Quote
Wingnut Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 I do not agree with the part in red, Wingnut. I don't believe those resurrected to hear judgment against them, and then executed at the SC will EVER be resurrected again. One execution was enough. I don't know where folks get the idea that any except those who died in Christ are going to be resurrected at the last trump? Is this not what Rev 20:4-6 says? That "blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection". You seem be adding the wicked to that resurrection at Christ's return. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. JoeMo 1 Quote
Wingnut Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 Will ANYONE live through the 7 wrath plagues? As I understand it, by the END of the 7 wrath plagues, there is NO oxygen (because there is no vegetation, and no sea life). There is NO clean water. (All streams turned to blood.) There is NO food (because all vegetation was burned up). No sunlight (because the earth was "moved out of it's place"). and No atmosphere (the sky is split open). EVERY mountain and island are flattened. That would be an earthquake of 12 on the Richter scale, which means the plates ALL become liquid. I watch a lot of National Geographic Channel. I don't see how ANYONE could survive such conditions. Read Zech 14 especially verses 11 and 16 which say there will be folks left. As for the destroyed ecology, living waters flow from Jerusalem to heal the earth. This implies instant healing not 1000 year delay. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, ... 2 ...For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle.; .... 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations,... 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 ... and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 7 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.... 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: .... 10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: ... 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 I don't know where folks get the idea that any except those who died in Christ are going to be resurrected at the last trump? Rachel replies: Daniel 12:1-3 "At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. This would be the 7 last plagues. And at that time, your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book, and multitudes of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, (These would be those "written in the Book" of Life.) Some to shame and everlasting contempt. These would be the rebellious wicked. Daniel was an Old Testament prophet. He was apparently NOT resurrected by Christ just after Christ's own resurrection (Matt 27:52-53). Daniel was told, "But you, go your way till the END; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the END of the days." At the END of the time period delineated in his prophecy. The 1260 days. That is when "the saints" are given the kingdom, in Dan. 7:22. (You could possibly bring his resurrection to 1290 days or 1335 days. I believe those will be fulfilled appointed Feasts that we will keep with HIM in His Father's house.) Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) Regarding Zechariah 14:16 "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem, shall go up from your to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles." I believe the people who are LEFT, will be the redeemed remnant. The remnant is what's left. The LORD said He would gather them from "EVERY nation, kindred, tongue and people." Right? Jeremiah 24:5-7 The LORD promised to bring back a small remnant called the “good figs.” He would then give them “a heart to know Me” [The New Covenant Promise]. The “good figs” brought back from Babylon, are the type - and represent the faithful who will be delivered at the Second Coming, and then “returned to the land”- at The 8th Day. The "family of Egypt" would be all of those who were raised AFTER the 1000 years. The term “family of Egypt” refers, I believe, to the “mixed multitude” - all of those whose hearts are still in Egypt - still loving their idols, their sin and their Pharaoh (Satan). There was a "mixed multitude" who followed Moses out of Egypt, AND there was a "mixed multitude" who followed Zerubabel out of Babylon. I believe those were a TYPE of the greater "mixed multitude" who will be resurrected at the 8th millennium. “The nations” (non-Israelites) are invited to go up to Jerusalem, to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Anciently, Gentiles were invited only to this Feast - not to Passover or Pentecost. NOTE: The Water Ceremony, performed during the Feast of Tabernacles WAS a prayer for rain. In Scripture, water always represents the Holy Spirit. Those of the nations who will “not come up,” will not receive this outpouring of the Spirit - and they will be deceived by Satan, into rebellion - resulting in the Battle of Gog and Magog. This post is getting too long. I'll put the rest in another post. Ezekiel 36:33-36 “. . . On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities I will also enable you to dwell in the cities and the ruins shall be rebuilt” (v.33). “Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate” (v.36). I believe these "nations who are left" will be "the rest of the dead", who are resurrected at the 8th millennium. Jeremiah 12:14 “Thus says the LORD: ‘Against all My evil neighbors who touch the inheritance which I have caused My people Israel to inherit–behold, I will pluck them out of their land, and pluck out the house of Judah from among them. THEN it shall be, after I have plucked them out, that I will return and have compassion on them and bring them back, everyone to his heritage and everyone to his land. And it shall be, if they will diligently learn the ways of My people, to swear by My name, ‘As the LORD lives,’ . . . then they shall be established in the midst of My people.’” This one is an absolute bombshell! The evil neighbors of Israel will be plucked out, and then later returned to their lands. If they will learn the ways of Israel and the LORD, then “they will be established in the midst of my people.” I believe this will be so, BECAUSE these people died in ignorance of the true God and His Son. These people can be saved. They did not make a final choice, because they did NOT have enough information upon which to BASE a choice. Edited October 8, 2015 by 8thdaypriest Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 Isaiah 66:18-21 [After the destruction of v. 15-17] “For I know their works and their thoughts: the time cometh, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and shall see my glory. And I will set a sign among them, and I will send such as escape of them [those raised first] unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the nations. And they shall bring all your brethren out of all the nations for an oblation unto Jehovah, upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith Jehovah, as the children of Israel bring their oblation in a clean vessel into the house of Jehovah. And of them also will I take for priests and for Levites, saith Jehovah.” (ASV) "Those who escape of them" - would be those who escape FROM "the nations". And these people will be sent "unto the nations" that HAVE NOT HEARD. They are SENT to people who could not CHOOSE during their lives before the Second Coming, because they lived and died in ignorance. THEN these witnesses will then bring many “brethren” to Christ. They will be offered to Christ - like an offering - as “spiritual sacrifices.” And He will even take some of them for priests. Wow!! Imagine being sent back to your grandmother - 20 generations back - to tell her of Christ. It makes sense to me, that Christ will have priests from "every nation, kindred, tongue, and people." These witnesses will be accepted more readily by their racial an cultural ancestors. Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 The events of The 8th Day CANNOT take place during the 7th millennium because: 1. The earth is without inhabitants. 2. The priests cannot serve until The 8th Day. (Leviticus Cpt 8, and Rev. 20:6) The 8th day, would be the 8th millennium. "With the LORD one day is as a thousand years" (2Pet 3:8). THE EARTH WILL BE UNINHABITED Malachi 4:4-6 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.” The word in this verse, translated "curse" is "cherem" (#02764) which means “devoted to destruction” or simply “devoted”. The LORD instructed Joshua to completely destroy or “devote to destruction,” the cities of the Canaanites. The army of Joshua was to “kill everything living” - every man, woman, and child, and also every animal. Joshua 10:40 “So Joshua conquered all the land: the mountain country and the South and the lowland and the wilderness slopes, and all their kings; he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel had commanded.” Joshua is a TYPE of Christ, when He comes to conquer. 2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” Mark 13:31 “Heaven and earth will pass away, . . .” (Lk 21:33, Matt. 24:36). Hebrews 6:7-8 “For the earth . . . If it bears thorn and briers, it is rejected . . . whose end is to be burned.” Deuteronomy 29:23 “The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.” NOTE: This is the curse which the LORD prophesied would come upon the land of Israel, should they forsake the covenant. Those things which happened to Israel are the type (symbol) of those things which will come upon the whole of mankind (1 Cor. 10:11). “Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left” (Isaiah 24:6). Those who are LEFT, will be the redeemed of Israel. Zephaniah 1:14-18 “. . . On the day of the Lord’s wrath; And all the earth will be devoured in the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.” NAS NOTE: Zephaniah wrote in the days before the Babylonian destruction. When the Babylonians attacked Judea they did not kill every inhabitant. They left the poorest of the people in the land. That fact tells us that this prophecy of destruction is a dual prophecy. It will have another - complete - fulfillment. Genesis 6:13 “And God said to Noah, ‘The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.’” Luke 17:26-30 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: . . . the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: . . . on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.” NOTE: In Noah’s day, the flood destroyed every human being outside of the ark. On the day that Lot was led out of Sodom, the fire destroyed every living thing in the city. “Even so,” means “just like that.” The last plagues will destroy all life on earth. Zechariah 1:2-3: “‘I will utterly consume all things from off the land,’ Says the Lord. ‘I will consume man and beasts; I will consume the birds of the heaven, the fish of the sea, and the shrines with the wicked; and I will cut off man from the face of the earth,’ Says the Lord.” WITHOUT FORM - AND VOID “Without form and void” (Strong’s # 08414 & #0922) – these are the same Hebrew words that were used to describe the earth on the first day of creation, before God made anything (Genesis 1:2). The earth was dark, and without life. These are the words chosen by Jeremiah to describe the earth AFTER "the great day of the Lord". Jeremiah 4:23-26 [After the great day of the Lord] “I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth. I beheld, and indeed there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled. I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the LORD, [the Second Coming] By His fierce anger.” Isaiah 34:11 “He shall stretch out over it the line of confusion [meaning ‘without form’] and the stones of emptiness [meaning ‘void’].” In the Septuagint the Greek word “abussos” (Strong’s #12 - meaning bottomless or boundless) was used to translate the Hebrew “bohuw” (#0922 - meaning emptiness, void or waste). See Genesis 1:2 & Jeremiah 4:23. The same Greek word “abussos” is translated as “bottomless pit” in Revelation 20:1-2 of our English Bible. Satan is thrown into the abyss - the emptiness, the void, the waste - a perfect description of earth after the seven last plagues. I do not believe that anyone will survive the 7 wrath plagues, EXCEPT the redeemed, who are translated OFF this planet to "the city which He has prepared for them". Quote 8thdaypriest
Wingnut Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Malachi 4:4-6 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.” 2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” Mark 13:31 “Heaven and earth will pass away, . . .” (Lk 21:33, Matt. 24:36). Zephaniah 1:14-18 “. . . On the day of the Lord’s wrath; And all the earth will be devoured in the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.” NAS Luke 17:26-30 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: . . . the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: . . . on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.” NOTE: In Noah’s day, the flood destroyed every human being outside of the ark. On the day that Lot was led out of Sodom, the fire destroyed every living thing in the city. “Even so,” means “just like that.” The last plagues will destroy all life on earth. Zechariah 1:2-3: “‘I will utterly consume all things from off the land,’ Says the Lord. ‘I will consume man and beasts; I will consume the birds of the heaven, the fish of the sea, and the shrines with the wicked; and I will cut off man from the face of the earth,’ Says the Lord.” In the Septuagint the Greek word “abussos” (Strong’s #12 - meaning bottomless or boundless) was used to translate the Hebrew “bohuw” (#0922 - meaning emptiness, void or waste). See Genesis 1:2 & Jeremiah 4:23. The same Greek word “abussos” is translated as “bottomless pit” in Revelation 20:1-2 of our English Bible. Satan is thrown into the abyss - the emptiness, the void, the waste - a perfect description of earth after the seven last plagues. I do not believe that anyone will survive the 7 wrath plagues, EXCEPT the redeemed, who are translated OFF this planet to "the city which He has prepared for them". Hi Rachel Please check out my post in the other thread on this subject. Like you quoted, a thousand years is with the LORD as a day. This statement is a principal, not a law. If it were a law, and if Bishop Usher were right, then we would all be in the millennium already since longer than 6000 years of human history have passed. What I am saying is that when God thinks of "The day of the LORD" He thinks of the total end time period when Christ is LORD or king of the earth. This can refer to any time from the 6th seal onwards, till the 8th Millennium when all earth will be consumed by fire, as John describes in Rev 20, or Peter describes in 2 Pet 3:10, or like all the scriptures you listed, which I quote. We know that at the 8th Millennium divine intervention all the earth will be cauterised with fire, and any scriptures pointing to a complete end, point to then. Rev 20 is all about a complete end and always this end is by fire (no other means). As for the abyss story. We know that even at present demons are locked in the abyss and will be released from the "bottomless pit" (Rev 9). This is somewhere on earth. Does this pit even occupy physical space? If so, how much space does it take to confine Satan? A 5' x 5' cell? It does not matter. Even if the abyss is on earth, the confinement of Satan will not interfere with those living on earth through the millennium. I can see that you know your Bible by some of the "proofs" you throw in for luck, like the priests undergoing a 7 day purification ritual Quote
8thdaypriest Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 Rachel,That cannot be so for Jesus said "as in the days of Noah so shall the coming of the son of man be".Matt 24:37-38 Carefully reading Genesis 7. one sees that 7 days before the rains came Noah and his family entered the ark and God shut them in. (Gen 7:1-4 , 7:9-10, 7:15-16) The antediluvians were eating and drinking for 7 days before the rains came and knew it not. that their probation had closed, for unbeknown to them, they were shut out of the ark. But Noah and his family were not raptured away from the flood. They went through it for 40 days and nights safely enscounced in the ark and protected by GOd. The final atonement finishes and probation closes before the 7 last plagues. Worldly people will be eating and drinking, not knowing their probation is closing. When the 7 last plagues begin falling after the judgment, God's people will be on the earth still, but their bread and water will be sure while a thousand die on their right and 10,000 on their left (see Psm 91) It will be a terrible time. So terrible that those days will be shortened for the elect;s sake .(Mark 13:19-20) As the plagues end, the Son of Man comes to earth to meet in the air the raised dead and the righteous living, while the wicked are hiding themselves in the rocks and consumed at the brightness of His coming.(2 Thess 2:8) This is why the Adventists preach the 3 Angels' Messages to prepare for the judgment and not be like the 5 sleepy virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. The close of probation for Noah's generation occurred secretly seven days before the flood. In the last days, probation will close silently and secretly before Christ's return. Both Noah and the end time righteous go through the tribulation protected by God rather than raptured away. Jackson, I believe the Second Coming will be "as it was in the days of Noah" and like Sodom and Gomorrah, in one sense. Everyone OUTSIDE of the ark of Noah - DIED. And everyone not removed (by angels) from Sodom - DIED. I don't believe the "close of probation" (an Adventist term) will be a "secret" to the redeemed. Noah and family KNEW the LORD had shut the door. I believe it will not be recognized by the wicked. They are "making merry" because they have killed the "two witnesses". If I was going to "set a time" - I would say probation closes WHEN the last witnesses is silenced. And that happens 3 days BEFORE the Voice of God resurrects the witnesses. I puzzled over "Lot's wife". Who does she represent? She WAS dragged out of Sodom, by the hand of angels. I now believe she represents those in covenant with the LORD, whose hearts are still partly in Sodom. Rather than looking straight ahead, and running for her life FROM "Sodom" (the wicked world) she hesitates and looks back. She is "halting between two opinions". Those finally translated from this earth, will be 100% - all in - wanting OUT of this world. Nothing will hold them back. Not kids or grandkids, or friends - NOTHING. Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 Hi Rachel Please check out my post in the other thread on this subject. Like you quoted, a thousand years is with the LORD as a day. This statement is a principal, not a law. If it were a law, and if Bishop Usher were right, then we would all be in the millennium already since longer than 6000 years of human history have passed. What I am saying is that when God thinks of "The day of the LORD" He thinks of the total end time period when Christ is LORD or king of the earth. This can refer to any time from the 6th seal onwards, till the 8th Millennium when all earth will be consumed by fire, as John describes in Rev 20, or Peter describes in 2 Pet 3:10, or like all the scriptures you listed, which I quote. We know that at the 8th Millennium divine intervention all the earth will be cauterised with fire, and any scriptures pointing to a complete end, point to then. Rev 20 is all about a complete end and always this end is by fire (no other means). As for the abyss story. We know that even at present demons are locked in the abyss and will be released from the "bottomless pit" (Rev 9). This is somewhere on earth. Does this pit even occupy physical space? If so, how much space does it take to confine Satan? A 5' x 5' cell? It does not matter. Even if the abyss is on earth, the confinement of Satan will not interfere with those living on earth through the millennium. I can see that you know your Bible by some of the "proofs" you throw in for luck, like the priests undergoing a 7 day purification ritual No Wingnut. "We" don't know that. You believe that. I do not believe the "fire" which consumes the Gog/Magog army will consume the entire earth. Else why the rest of the Ezekiel story where special people are appointed to gather up the bones, and take them to a special City appointed for the burial of Gog and his army. Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 I've been sick this last week, so I haven't been posting. I haven't done anything. REALLY bad bug! Finally on antibiotics as of Tues, when spiked to 102.8. I'm just now getting to where I can think. Wingnut, I sent you a couple of personal messages. Didn't get any reply. Are you not set up for that? You and I may just have to agree to disagree. I'm definitely NOT where you are, in my understanding of eschatology, and of post Second Coming events. Quote 8thdaypriest
Wingnut Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I've been sick this last week, so I haven't been posting. I haven't done anything. REALLY bad bug! Finally on antibiotics as of Tues, when spiked to 102.8. I'm just now getting to where I can think. Wingnut, I sent you a couple of personal messages. Didn't get any reply. Are you not set up for that? You and I may just have to agree to disagree. I'm definitely NOT where you are, in my understanding of eschatology, and of post Second Coming events. I am sorry that you have been sick Rachel, and hope the antibiotics are taking effect. I did receive one message before, but cannot see any from you. Your comment on Ezek puzzled me. It was from you I got the motivation to check out the Gog story. There are two instances where Gog is divinely defeated, one at the second coming, one in the 8th millennium. When do you believe the 7 month burying and 7 year burning of weapons of war occurs? It really is a pleasure and honour to debate with someone who knows their Bible as well as you do. You grab scriptures from parts of scripture I have not read for years. One of these days you will be quoting Song of Songs, and at that point I will roll over in defeat. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 I am sorry that you have been sick Rachel, and hope the antibiotics are taking effect. I did receive one message before, but cannot see any from you. Your comment on Ezek puzzled me. It was from you I got the motivation to check out the Gog story. There are two instances where Gog is divinely defeated, one at the second coming, one in the 8th millennium. When do you believe the 7 month burying and 7 year burning of weapons of war occurs? It really is a pleasure and honour to debate with someone who knows their Bible as well as you do. You grab scriptures from parts of scripture I have not read for years. One of these days you will be quoting Song of Songs, and at that point I will roll over in defeat. I believe there is ONLY ONE Gog/Magog Battle, and that one will take place during the 8th millennium. The clean-up and burying FOLLOW that Battle. The Great White Throne Judgment FOLLOWS the Gog/Magog Battle. Quote 8thdaypriest
Wingnut Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I believe there is ONLY ONE Gog/Magog Battle, and that one will take place during the 8th millennium. The clean-up and burying FOLLOW that Battle. The Great White Throne Judgment FOLLOWS the Gog/Magog Battle. 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. If fire "devoured" them, I see nothing to bury, and nothing to burn for 7 years as Ezek 39:10 says will happen. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. If fire "devoured" them, I see nothing to bury, and nothing to burn for 7 years as Ezek 39:10 says will happen. The "consuming fire" : The bodies (at the Second Coming) are left unburied (Jer. 25:33). The "birds" will feast on them. There will be no one left to bury them. The bodies of Nadab and Abihu were carried out of the courtyard, by their tunics (Lev. 10:5). On "the 8th day" by the way. The same day that Aaron began his ministry as high priest. All these were consumed by the “fire” of God. The glory of God is “fire,” but not fire in our earthly sense. "Our God is a consuming fire" (Deut 4:24). There's the glory of God. That's one kind of fire. And there's HEAT that consumes physical things - like melting elements, "fire and brimstone". That's another TYPE of "fire". The question is: WHAT TYPE of "fire" will consume Gog and his army? I personally believe it will be the glory of God type. If that is so, then why would it not simply KILL THEM, in this glory, leaving the corpses to be abhorred, and the bones to bury? Isaiah 66:24 “‘And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.’” Jesus quoted from this passage. See Mark 9:44, 46 & 48. 1. At the second coming: The earth will be burned up - and the wicked along with it. Who knows? If the earth is "moved out of its place" moving it closer to the sun, and if the sun gets 7 times hotter, that would be a gamma ray burst, and would fry everything. 2. At the Gog-Magog battle: The rebellious will be consumed by “fire” from heaven. I personally believe this is the glory of God, which will KILL the enemy, but leave the bodies to be disposed of. 3. At the final judgment of the dead: The lost will be consumed in the special “lake of fire” that was created to consume spirit beings (the Devil and his angels). I do NOT personally believe that what remains of the wicked dead from the SC, will be physically alive, when this is thrown in. I mean - they already DIED twice - once at the end of their first life, and again under judgment (either at the SC, or at Gog-Magog). Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted October 9, 2015 Author Posted October 9, 2015 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. If fire "devoured" them, I see nothing to bury, and nothing to burn for 7 years as Ezek 39:10 says will happen. "devoured" : 2719 katesqi,w katesthio {kat-es-thee'-o} or katafa,gw kataphago {kat-aph-ag'-o}Meaning: 1) to consume by eating, to eat up, devour 1a) of birds 1b) of a dragon 1c) of a man eating up the little book 2) metaph. 2a) to devour i.e. squander, waste: substance 2b) to devour i.e. forcibly appropriate: widows' property 2c) to strip one of his goods 1c1) to ruin (by the infliction of injuries) 2d) by fire, to devour i.e. to utterly consume, destroy So "devour" means essentially the SAME as "consume". It means to destroy completely. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming." (NKJ) The return of Christ in the glory of His Father, starts a chain reaction (the 7 last plagues) that will utterly consume this earth. We know the Beast with its "little horn" and the "false prophet" will be thrown alive into a "lake of fire" AT the SC. I personally believe the "lake of fire" at this time (following the SC) will be this earth. Peter says, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up (2Pe 3:10 NKJ). Brimstone is simply melted elements. We know that Satan is NOT completely "consumed" to the point of non-existence, AT the SC. If Satan is "the lawless one" - then he is "consumed" only in the sense that His kingdom is taken away, and it burns up (II Peter). I rather think THE "lawless one" is Satan himself. One of the meanings given for "consumed" does fit here. So perhaps one or the other IS "the lawless one". I rather think THE "lawless one" is Satan himself. Anyway - The Beast is a huge worldwide geopolitical system, powered by Satan. The "little horn" and "false prophet" are Satan's "two witnesses". One wonders why - if they are thrown into the "lake of fire" at the SC, they would need to be resurrected AGAIN, to face execution AGAIN - at Gog/Magog (as Adventists believe). Quote 8thdaypriest
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