The Secret Rapture

[JoeMo]

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2)

Could the resurrection of those raised to everlasting contempt come 1,000 years after the resurrection of those to everlasting life?  Nothing in this verse indicates that the events are simultaneous.

[JoeMo]

We know that Satan is NOT completely "consumed" to the point of non-existence, AT the SC.  If Satan is "the lawless one" - then he is "consumed" only in the sense that His kingdom is taken away, and it burns up  (II Peter).  I rather think THE "lawless one" is Satan himself.  One of the meanings given for "consumed" does fit here.

So perhaps one or the other IS "the lawless one".  I rather think THE "lawless one" is Satan himself.  Anyway - The Beast is a huge worldwide geopolitical system, powered by Satan.  The "little horn" and "false prophet" are Satan's "two witnesses".  One wonders why - if they are thrown into the "lake of fire" at the SC, they would need to be resurrected AGAIN, to face execution AGAIN - at Gog/Magog (as Adventists believe). 

IMO SDA's believe this because Revelation 20:10 (KJV) says "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are"; "are" being present tense.People misintepret this, thinking it means that they are still alive.  A more accurate translation would be in the NIV where it says "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.  It says nothing about them being resurrected and punished again.  When I tell someone that my parents are in the grave, it doesn't mean they are alive in the grave.

There is no reference to satan being thrown in the lake of fire at the second coming; scripture says he is thrown into the Abyss and bound for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-3)

[8thdaypriest]

I don't know where folks get the idea that any except those who died in Christ are going to be resurrected at the last trump?

Is this not what Rev 20:4-6 says?  That "blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection".  You seem be adding the wicked to that resurrection at Christ's return.

 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

I noticed that Daniel 12:2-3 mentions
"some will rise to everlasting life" BEFORE it mentions "some to everlasting condemnation".  Two kinds of people here.  I hadn't thought of it before, but I'm wondering if the "dead in Christ" rise FIRST, (same as in Revelation 11 - at the Voice of God that calls them up to Heaven) and the wicked are resurrected "second" but still in association with the end of the age, and the second coming. 

Most realize that "a day" can mean 1 literal day, or it can mean a general time period.  Just as "the time of the end" may NOT refer to a single POINT in time, but rather to a time period.

[8thdaypriest]

"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2)

Could the resurrection of those raised to everlasting contempt come 1,000 years after the resurrection of those to everlasting life?  Nothing in this verse indicates that the events are simultaneous.

I definitely see two TYPES of people here.  Those worthy to receive eternal life.  And those worthy to receive everlasting condemnation.  I don't see a spread of 1000 years between.  But it could be the righteous are raised "first" (just like the 2 witnesses are resurrected at the Voice of God, and they ascend to heaven).  I believe this is the resurrection of the righteous. 

[8thdaypriest]

We've wandered away from the "rapture" into a discussion of the "lake of fire".  I've thought about John's description. 

Revelation 21:7-8  “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars [hypocrites] shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    Many of those saved in the kingdom committed these very sins.  Paul claimed that he persecuted the followers of Christ.  He was forgiven, because he did it in ignorance. So let’s be clear.  Every person has committed sins against God.  We are saved because we ask for forgiveness - and we change our ways through the indwelling power of the Spirit of Christ.  Those who are lost, are those who refused to change their ways.  

    At the conclusion of this final judgment, Death and Hell (Sheol - the abode of the dead) are cast into the lake of fire.  Saying that “the abode of the dead” (Sheol) is consumed - is another way of saying that ALL OF THE DEAD are consumed.  The abode of the dead will then no longer exist.  It has will have been blotted out.  No one from Sheol can be resurrected after this event - because Sheol will no longer exist!

WHAT IS THE NATURE OF THE FIRE WHICH FINALLY CONSUMES?

        Brimstone (#2303) is from the Greek word “theion.”  Yes - the first four letters “thei” tell us that this refers in some way to the divine.  Strong’s tells us, “brimstone was regarded as having power to purify.”  It was called “divine incense.”  When you smell exploding firecrackers, you are smelling sulfur in the gunpowder.  So brimstone smelled like burning sulfur.  

        John the prophet, in vision was shown the “lake of fire.”  He was searching for words to describe this awesome, brilliant, glorious “fire.”  It is a purifying fire.  It may NOT literally be fire in our sense of the word today.  It may not have smelled like sulfur, but John is using imagery which his readers could understand.  It is “divine fire” and it will consume the last trace of evil from the universe of God.

THE SECOND DEATH OF THE WICKED WILL BE LIKE THE SACRIFICE ON THE ALTER.

        Psalm 37:20  “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”

    NOTE: Some translations read: “like the glory of the fields.”
                        To a shepherd, this meant lambs - not crops or flowers.

The point here is that the lambs were FIRST KILLED, and were DEAD when what remained was consumed into smoke - to vanish away. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Isaiah 33:14-17  "Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?’  He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly,’”

Isaiah 43:2   “. . . when you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned.”

Revelation 22:4  “They shall see His face.”

    NOTE:  We will “see His face” and will not be consumed.  The saved will receive immortal spiritual bodies, and will live “in His presence.”  

    This is why “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 15:50).  

 

[Wingnut]

"devoured" :  2719 katesqi,w katesthio {kat-es-thee'-o} or katafa,gw kataphago {kat-aph-ag'-o}
Meaning:  1) to consume by eating, to eat up, devour 1a) of birds 1b) of a dragon 1c) of a man eating up the little book 2) metaph. 2a) to devour i.e. squander, waste: substance 2b) to devour i.e. forcibly appropriate: widows' property 2c) to strip one of his goods 1c1) to ruin (by the infliction of injuries) 2d) by fire, to devour i.e. to utterly consume, destroy

So "devour" means essentially the SAME as "consume".   It means to destroy completely.

2 Thessalonians 2:8  "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming." (NKJ)

The return of Christ in the glory of His Father, starts a chain reaction (the 7 last plagues) that will utterly consume this earth. 

We know the Beast with its "little horn" and the "false prophet" will be thrown alive into a "lake of fire" AT the SC.   I personally believe the "lake of fire" at this time (following the SC) will be this earth.  Peter says, "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up (2Pe 3:10 NKJ).  Brimstone is simply melted elements. 

We know that Satan is NOT completely "consumed" to the point of non-existence, AT the SC.  If Satan is "the lawless one" - then he is "consumed" only in the sense that His kingdom is taken away, and it burns up  (II Peter).  I rather think THE "lawless one" is Satan himself.  One of the meanings given for "consumed" does fit here. 

 

So perhaps one or the other IS "the lawless one".  I rather think THE "lawless one" is Satan himself.  Anyway - The Beast is a huge worldwide geopolitical system, powered by Satan.  The "little horn" and "false prophet" are Satan's "two witnesses".  One wonders why - if they are thrown into the "lake of fire" at the SC, they would need to be resurrected AGAIN, to face execution AGAIN - at Gog/Magog (as Adventists believe). 

 

The Beast and the False Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire and consumed at Christs coming and Satan is imprisoned for 1000 years.  These two are the EXCEPTIONS in that they are consumed, and singled out for this special treatment.

I just have to read the vial plagues and in particular the 7th vial plague to see that you are so so wrong in saying that folks are consumed.  There is hail and earthquake, and men at Armageddon fighting against each other so that blood flows to the height of a horses bridle.  Only the peoples eyes are consumed in their sockets.  And remember, this is only at Jerusalem.  In China and Australia, folks are still left alive at Christ's coming.  They may be thirsty with rivers turned to blood, but they are not consumed.

Where your logic fails you too is that Christ's saints lived and reigned with Him for a thousand years.  There is only reigning on earth over the remnant, no reigning in heaven since there are no subjects there to reign over.  They are not going to reign over one another.

Also your logic fails you in that in Rev 20 everything is being finally wound up with fire.  There is absolutely no need to continue for 7 years after this, because Rev 20 describes the events immediately preceding the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven.  The earth MUST be purified by fire and only then does 2 Peter kick in, in which the elements melt, and every thorn and bug is destroyed.  Earth must be cauterised by fire as Rev 20 describes.  Burying bodies for 7 years just does not cut it or clean the earth up in preparation for New Jerusalem coming down to earth.

I have changed hundreds of my doctrines and religious beliefs over the last few decades.  In fact this thread helped change one for me.  Like you, I started out believing that all references to Gog in the Bible, referred to the same event in the 8th Millennium.  And I did not feel I needed to look out for a Gog from the North at the second coming.  A friend of mine always bangs on about the importance of Russia in the end time and I go "yea, yea, whatever".  But if Russia is Gog, it might be worth watching.

Rachel, your very handle tell me that you have a lot invested in believing that we are priests on earth during the 8th day.  I am looking forward to being a 7thdaypriest and helping all those traumatised by the 2nd coming, rebuild their lives, with lion and lamb playing together, children playing on the hole of a snake, and folks not killing or hurting each other in God's holy mountain - Jerusalem on earth.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Wingnut

[LifeHiscost]

Where your logic fails you too is that Christ's saints lived and reigned with Him for a thousand years.  There is only reigning on earth over the remnant, no reigning in heaven since there are no subjects there to reign over.  They are not going to reign over one another.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,  and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years....Revelation 20

 

Are you suggesting thrones will be sat upon this earth for the saved who are priests and kings, to reign with Jesus?
 

⁶ Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.....Revelation 20

 

³ And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season....Revelation 20

 

Since the heavenly city comes down after the thousand years, why would it be supposed the saved weren't reigning with Christ in that city during that thousand years, when the devil was cast into the bottomless pit?

 

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.....Revelation 20
 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Wingnut]

Let's just look at the overview of Rev 20.  Its a chapter of FINALISATION.

This makes sense because it sits right at the end of the Bible.

Rev 20:10 the Devil is finalised.

Rev 20:11-13 the dead are finalised.

Rev 20:8-9 those humans left alive on earth are finalised.

But wait... Rachel, you claim that normal life goes on for these folks left on earth, they just continue burying bodies for 7 more months, and burning leftover armaments for 7 more years.  Rev 21:1 proves that Rev 20 was about finalisation because it says (without chapter break)...

 

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

We have a new heaven and earth. Chapter 20 was the finalisation of the old earth.  And the old earth is finalised by fire from heaven, not by burying bones for 7 months, or burning armaments for 7 years.  Rev is telling a story, and we need to pay attention to the sequence of events.

[Wingnut]

 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,  and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years....Revelation 20

 

Are you suggesting thrones will be sat upon this earth for the saved who are priests and kings, to reign with Jesus?

 

Since the heavenly city comes down after the thousand years, why would it be supposed the saved weren't reigning with Christ in that city during that thousand years, when the devil was cast into the bottomless pit?

Exactly!  Why wouldn't Christ reign immediately?  In fact why even call it his second coming if He was not really coming?  Or why not just leave everybody during the 7th millennium to enjoy themselves as they are doing today.  The 1000 year fallow earth theory makes no sense.  Even the idea of Heb 9:4 saying "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God" applies to the 7th day sabbath, which is a type of the Millennial rest when we are  serving as priests during the millennial sabbath.

As for thrones, the scripture below shows we are to be kings as well as priests. Who will we rule?

The stone Daniel saw smash the feet of the image shows the stone expanding to fill the whole earth.  This is what happens to Christ's kingdom.  We  presumably will help rule this ever expanding kingdom.  There is no delay by the way in the stone smashing the feet, and the stone expanding to fill the earth.

 

27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

[Wingnut]

As an aside...

There is a Feast mentioned in Lev 23 which follows directly after the 7 day long Feast of Tabernacles (which pictures the Millennium).  That feast is called Shemini Atzeret.  Lev 23:39  "and on the eighth day shall be a Sabbath".  This feast pictures the 8th millennium.

What is interesting is that Feast keepers are commanded to live in booths or temporary dwellings for the 7 days, but on Shemini Atzeret, the eighth day, they move back into their homes.  I don't know what the Jews today do, but that is what the Bible commands.

This 8th day pictures a new beginning and permanence.  This pictures the New Jerusalem, and the new heavens and new earth.

I am not into the significance of numbers (which has a name which I forget).  But I believe that 8 is used in the Bible for New beginnings, which the new Jerusalem coming down in the 8th millennium fulfils.

If one keeps the Feast of Tabernacles in a booth of branches (see Neh 8) by the end of 7 days the branches are withered.  How do you get rid of them? You burn them - which is what Rev 20 with all its references to fire, points to.

[Wingnut]

Why does the Feast of Tabernacles picture the Millennium...?

Because when Christ returns, His feet stand on the Mt of Olives, which cracks in half, and living waters flow from it.

People will come up to Jerusalem from around the world to see Christ and to drink this fresh water.  Of course there will be rain again on earth, so folks will survive even with rivers turned to blood. There is enough oxygen in the atmosphere to survive thousands of years even if the seas are blood.  But the seas will be restored as the living waters reach them.  During the Tribulation, the 2 witnesses do like Elijah and command that no rain fall.  Hence the jubilation when the 2 witnesses are killed.

When folks come to Jerusalem, there will be no permanent buildings left.  They will dwell in booths, just as at the Exodus.  And every year they will commemorate this event by some folks from every nation coming up to Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, just like muslims go to Mecca.  In particular, the kings of all Gentile nations of all the world will come up, be subject to Christ's command, and dwell in booths made of branches.  Otherwise their nations will get no rain the following year (Zech 14).

Booths too picture the impermanence of physical existence.  Like Abraham, we are strangers and pilgrims.  Here is no continuing city.  This impermanence continues through the millennium.  Only on the 8th day is the majority of mankind changed to immortal.  Hence the 7 impermanent millennia, followed by Shemini Atzeret - the 8th millennium with its permanence of immortality, new Jerusalem, new heavens, new earth.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Wingnut

[8thdaypriest]

The Beast and the False Prophet are thrown into the lake of fire and consumed at Christs coming and Satan is imprisoned for 1000 years.  These two are the EXCEPTIONS in that they are consumed, and singled out for this special treatment.

IMO:  The "Beast" is a huge world-wide geopolitical system.  The BEAST is not just one man.  The BEAST has 7 heads - going back thru centuries and centuries.  To destroy ALL of the Beast, you would have to resurrect everyone who served the BEAST back thru the centuries.  And that would be a resurrection of the wicked, and then their destruction.  The FALSE PROPHET is - most probably a last day man, channeled by Satan Himself.  He could even be the counterfeit Christ. 

I just have to read the vial plagues and in particular the 7th vial plague to see that you are so so wrong in saying that folks are consumed.  There is hail and earthquake, and men at Armageddon fighting against each other so that blood flows to the height of a horses bridle.  Only the peoples eyes are consumed in their sockets.  And remember, this is only at Jerusalem.  In China and Australia, folks are still left alive at Christ's coming.  They may be thirsty with rivers turned to blood, but they are not consumed.

Where your logic fails you too is that Christ's saints lived and reigned with Him for a thousand years.  There is only reigning on earth over the remnant, no reigning in heaven since there are no subjects there to reign over.  They are not going to reign over one another.

Rachel replies:  I don't believe we will reign over anyone in Heaven.  I believe we will rule "the nations" for 1000 years DURING the 8th day - ON THIS EARTH.  I do not personally FEEL READY to "rule over" anyone.  And I've been studying the Bible and trying to walk with Christ for 37 years now-since I was 30.  I FEEL I would need preparation for some time, first.  

Also your logic fails you in that in Rev 20 everything is being finally wound up with fire.  There is absolutely no need to continue for 7 years after this, because Rev 20 describes the events immediately preceding the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven.  The earth MUST be purified by fire and only then does 2 Peter kick in, in which the elements melt, and every thorn and bug is destroyed.  Earth must be cauterised by fire as Rev 20 describes.  Burying bodies for 7 years just does not cut it or clean the earth up in preparation for New Jerusalem coming down to earth.

I have changed hundreds of my doctrines and religious beliefs over the last few decades.  In fact this thread helped change one for me.  Like you, I started out believing that all references to Gog in the Bible, referred to the same event in the 8th Millennium.  And I did not feel I needed to look out for a Gog from the North at the second coming.  A friend of mine always bangs on about the importance of Russia in the end time and I go "yea, yea, whatever".  But if Russia is Gog, it might be worth watching.

Rachel replies:  I believe there WILL BE a Battle, with Russia, and Muslims against the present state of Israel.  Satan has worked for centuries, to bring this about.  He is working to deceive the world into believing that He is Christ come - when He appears in the rebuilt Temple on the Mount.  In order to deceive folks who have read the prophecies, He must make it appear that prophecy HAS been fulfilled.  "Israel" must be "returned to the land (even though they never believed in Christ and in fact fight against Him, and have NOT surrendered their hearts to God).  Satan has to create an Antichrist, so that He can appear to vanquish said Antichrist and rescue "Israel".  Most folks have heard of the 7 last plagues.  So Satan has to make several last plagues, before He appears.  (I believe Satan's plagues will be the trumpets.)  The  Battle of Armageddon takes place under the sixth bowl.  Most folks have heard of it, even if they don't understand the specifics.  Evangelicals are teaching that Christ will defend "Israel" to vanquish the Antichrist.  They are saying that Armageddon IS Gog/Magog.  Satan is fomenting this coming Battle, so that he can appear to "save Israel".  The world will then accept HIM as Christ come. 

Rachel, your very handle tell me that you have a lot invested in believing that we are priests on earth during the 8th day.  I am looking forward to being a 7thdaypriest and helping all those traumatised by the 2nd coming, rebuild their lives, with lion and lamb playing together, children playing on the hole of a snake, and folks not killing or hurting each other in God's holy mountain - Jerusalem on earth.

Wingnut, 

You and I are simply giving opinions here.  I'm very clear on that - in my book.  It's my opinion - which I feel completely free to change - IF someone convinces me of a better one.  I have also changed my view on many doctrines and beliefs, over the years.   That doesn't make me right - or wrong.  Just says I have tried to think for myself.  

The prophecies have not yet been fulfilled.  I don't really like comments such as "your logic fails you" or "you have a lot invested in believing".  The first implies I am not logical.  And the second implies I am clinging to an opinion, simply because I have published it.  I find such comments less than helpful, in a discussion. 

[JoeMo]

Wingnut,

I like the fresh perspective that you bring to the ongoing diverse eschatology discussed on CA.  I can't say that I agree with everything you propose; but I can't say that I disagree with any of it.  I need some time to wrap my head around it.  From a 50,000 level, it appears that you, Rachel, and I have reached the same general conclusions about things surrounding the 2nd coming and the post-milleninial period. Although I am open to the idea of spending the millennium in heaven, I lean towards the millennium being on earth; and part of our "work" will be to search out the small pockets of survivors and teach them of the Lord.

I don't know if it was in this thread or elsewhere that someone spoke of the time of the 2nd Coming being like the days of Noah; and Noah having to endure the wrath of God while still on earth as a model of Christians being stuck on earth during the 7 bowls.  I don't think that analogy works.  Noah and his family and anyone else who wanted to be under the protection of the Almighty God had an opportunity to escape the coming wrath simply by believing that it was coming; and getting into the ark of safety.  In the same way, believers at the end of time will be shielded from God's final wrath - be it by rapture/translation or being under His wings.

If you haven't been there yet, I would recommend that you take a stroll over to www.prophecyviewpoint.com (Rachel's website). Some good stuff on there.

[8thdaypriest]

Exactly!  Why wouldn't Christ reign immediately?  In fact why even call it his second coming if He was not really coming?  Or why not just leave everybody during the 7th millennium to enjoy themselves as they are doing today.  The 1000 year fallow earth theory makes no sense.  Even the idea of Heb 9:4 saying "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God" applies to the 7th day sabbath, which is a type of the Millennial rest when we are  serving as priests during the millennial sabbath.

The seventy years of Babylonian captivity during which the land lay desolate, were to fulfill 70 sabbatical years (rest years) which Israel had not kept.  Israel had been in rebellion for 490 years (2 Chron. 36:21).  The “rest” of desolation after the Babylonians destroyed “the land,” is a type (or symbolic prophecy) of the desolation which will come upon the whole earth, because men have forsaken the Law of the LORD.

    Leviticus 26:33-35  “I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.  Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.  As long as it lies desolate it shall rest – for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.”      

 

[JoeMo]

Wingnut,

I have to agree with Rachel's stand here; everything we discuss here is simply our opinions.  Reached by study independent of any dominating denominational influence.  I, like Rachel, reserve the right to be wrong and to change my mind when presented with a superior, biblically sound viewpoint. That's why I'm still here discussing this.  Let's keep our discussion on subject rather than question each other's sensibilities.

[JoeMo]

The seventy years of Babylonian captivity during which the land lay desolate, were to fulfill 70 sabbatical years (rest years) which Israel had not kept.  Israel had been in rebellion for 490 years (2 Chron. 36:21).  The “rest” of desolation after the Babylonians destroyed “the land,” is a type (or symbolic prophecy) of the desolation which will come upon the whole earth, because men have forsaken the Law of the LORD.

If this is true, since there were still people living in the desolate land during the Babylonian exile, would there still not be people living on the earth after the 2nd coming devastation?

[8thdaypriest]

I'm posting in this thread about the 7th millennium, and I'm posting in the other thread titled "Where will the redeemed spend the 7th millennium."  It's getting a little confusing.  Sorry.  Geriatric brain you know.  Do you think we might all put our posts on this topic in the thread on that topic?

[Wingnut]

Rachel, I apologise for the tone of some of my last posts to you.  

I was just about to post here, but will post on the redeemed thread instead.

 

[stinsonmarri]

I see the order of end-time events as follows...

First four seals are the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

In the 4th seal alone, one quarter of earth's population dies (Rev 6:8).  That is close to 2 billion people.

That is why I don't get excited by folks who say we have to watch carefully for signs of the end-time.  I will know I am in the end times when one quarter of earth's population dies, as it did during the Black Death of the 13th century.

Following this great dying comes the 5th seal or persecution of God's people when a Mark of the Beast is forced upon those who survived the great dying of the 4th seal. The fifth seal describes the Great Tribulation of the saints.

The sixth seal involves heavenly signs, when debris falls from heaven turning the moon to blood and the sun to sackcloth (not the rubbish blood moons or eclipses story).

It is the sealing of the saint in Rev 7:3 which I believe is the rapture.  Thus I believe in a post tribulation rapture.  The sealed saints are those who have refused The Mark.  They are sealed or hidden from the Trumpet plagues.

The raptured saints are not mentioned again till Rev 14 or when they are about to return to earth with Christ.  With Christ's heavenly armies, all first resurrection saints will watch from the sky as Christ pours out the last 7 vials onto the earth.

 

First your horsemen of the apocalypse doeth not make sense. We always try second guess what the Bible says. Rev Chapter six is the continuation of Chapter 4 and 5.  THE SON takes a Book out of HIS FATHER'S RIGHT HAND. Don't you see that? The beast in the KJV is wrong they are the four cherubim that Ezekiel saw that carries THE FATHER'S Throne. So they and the 24 elders are extremely happy why? Because THE SON who was THE LAMB is the only ONE worthy to open the Book! Now we need to take time and read what the elders only said:

And when HE had taken the Book, the four cherubim and four and twenty elders fell down before THE LAMB, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the Book, and to open the seals thereof: for THOU wast slain, and hast redeemed us to YAHWEH ELOHIM by THY Blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  And hast made us unto our YAHWEH ELOHIM kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Rev 5:8-9 

Here the elders states very clear that because THE LAMB was worthy to take the Book and open the seals, they now are redeemed by YAHSHUA'S Blood! These 24 elders stated very clear that they come from every kindred, tongue, people and nation. These 24 elders are some of the multitude of people who was risen out of the grave during the resurrection of YAHSHUA. It shows they were not sealed yet it was YAHSHUA opening the seals they stated, that now are finally been redeem. That is why it was a great celebration all through Heaven because not only the elders were being sealed, Enoch, Moses, Elijah and the rest of those risen all now are saved because the Book of Life has been open. The horses representing the period of times of the earth showing the ones on the earth who were permitted to  become immortalized now has been complete. They have been sealed or redeemed and their names now can remain in the Book of Life forever! 

There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. THE COMMANDER of the angel hosts, the sons of ELOHIM, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The Heavenly Council before which Lucifer had accused YAHWEH ELOHIM and YAHSHUA ELOHIM, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome THE REDEEMER. They are eager to celebrate HIS triumph and to GLORIFY their KING. But HE Waves them back. Not yet; HE cannot now receive the coronet of GLORY and the Royal Robe. HE enters into THE PRESENCE of HIS FATHER. HE points to HIS wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; HE lifts HIS HANDS, bearing the print of nails. HE  points to the tokens of HIS Triumph; HE presents to YAHWEH ELOHIM the wave sheaf, those raised with HIM as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at HIS second coming. DA p. 834

You see this make sense because YAHSHUA had to finalize the sealing of all the people of the past and then present. So YAHSHUA opens the first sealed and a white horse is presented with a rider who men still have this superiority ideology over women. Here is what what the word that KJV who chose to use him actually meant from Strong:

The proper personal pronoun) of the other persons: - her, it (-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-]) self, [your-] selves, she, that, their (-s), them ([-selves]), there [-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. 

Now let's just see if the Bible agree with Strong definition:

And ELOHIM said, Let US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion (power) over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  So ELOHIM created man in ELOHIM image, in the image of ELOHIM created; male and female created ELOHIM them. And ELOHIM blessed them, and ELOHIM said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion (power) over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen 1:26-28  

So now we know that rider was both Adams and the white horse was when the earth was pure and these two were only ones at that time to be sealed and saved. Where? In the Book of Life!!!!!!! The sin came in by their son Cain who was the first murder which was reflect by the earth that for the first time taste the blood of man and cried out to ELOHIM. The moaning of the earth is real and we feel it even today!

And YAHWEH ELOHIM said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And HE said, What hast thou done? The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto ME from the ground. Gen 4:9, 10  

But we are dealing with all who are sealed during this time which we know who some are: Able, Seth, Enoch and all others up to Noah and their sons and wives! Then the horse is black standing for paganism by Nimrod (who is the rider), spreading this belief through out the world. Those saved are those stretching  the way down to the Middle ages period of time. Then the horse or the earth is gray showing that the earth is starting to die. The reason men are taking over the earth and destroying it. But those saved are those during this time are being persecuted by the Catholic Church. Then the horses stop showing that the earth by the number four is north; south; east and west, just like the four corner of the golden altar! Then under the altar are a special group of martyrs that were under the fifth seal who were during the Inquisition of the Catholic Church. The Bible does not mention the mark of the beast all during this time. The sixth seal show signs that are take place from the time knowledge has increase until the 144,000 are sealed not rapture because again the Bible does not indicate that at all!!!!!! The Seventh sealed is the Time of Trouble when the great multitude are save. Here the Bible shows between the first and second woes, the evil angels who were held in prison according to Jude:

 And the angels who did not keep to their estates or houses not being content to keep their positions but went out from the place which was theirs, HE ELOHIM has put in eternal chains and in darkness  till the great day of the judging. Jude 1:6 BBE, KJV, 0JB,Scripture 98

These evil beings will be release from prison but they are told they cannot touch anyone that will be sealed nor killed the wicked only torture them so they want to die but can't!

And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star (an angel) fall from Heaven unto soil land: (the word is Ge look it up please) and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit (the Universe is the only dark place that has no bottom).  And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the abyss, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the abyss. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth (ge use as the earth is correct here): and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was Commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of YAHWEH ELOHIM in their foreheads ((literally, the space between the eyes the forehead). And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.  And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. Rev 9:1-6, 9  

This is what the Bible states very clearly if we only read and understand what the words actually meant and not speculate and put our spin on it. We must not understand words in the different shade of meaning that the English languages has. We need to realize that even the NT was written originally in the Paleo Hebrew language and was destroyed by both the Jews and the Catholic Church this is historical fact!

Blessings!

[Samie]

I noticed that Daniel 12:2-3 mentions"some will rise to everlasting life" BEFORE it mentions "some to everlasting condemnation".  Two kinds of people here.  I hadn't thought of it before, but I'm wondering if the "dead in Christ" rise FIRST, (same as in Revelation 11 - at the Voice of God that calls them up to Heaven) and the wicked are resurrected "second" but still in association with the end of the age, and the second coming.

Yes, Jesus Himself said that a time period is coming when ALL in the graves will hear His voice and come out. "all in the graves" necessarily includes both the righteous and the unrighteous.  The righteous will rise first; then the wicked will rise next.  This time period is the 2nd Coming because Jesus said He will reward every man when He comes again. That each one is to receive his own reward necessitates one's presence in the rewarding.  And the rewards are eternal life for the righteous, and wrath of God - the 7 last plagues, for the wicked.

^NKJ John 5:28-29   ²⁸ "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice  ²⁹ "and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

^NKJ Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

 

^NKJ Acts 24:15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

^NKJ Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

^NKJ Romans 2:5-8   ⁵ But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,  ⁶ who "will render to each one according to his deeds":  ⁷ eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;  ⁸ but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath

^NKJ Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

[stinsonmarri]

Sammie I was surprise that you didn't provide these powerful Scriptures:

But now is THE MESSIAH risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in THE MESSIAH shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: THE MESSIAH THE FIRSTFRUIT; afterward they that are of THE MESSIAH'S at HIS coming. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of ELOHIM; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the Law. 1Co 15:20-23, 26, 35,50-56  

 For YAHSHUA HIMSELF shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of THE ARCHANGEL, and with THE TRUMP of YAHWEH ELOHIM and the dead in THE MESSIAH shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet YAHSHUA in the air: and so shall we ever be with YAHSHUA. 1Th 4:16, 17 

He that hath an ear, let him hear what THE HOLY SPIRIT saith unto the churches; He that over cometh shall not be hurt of the second death.  Rev 2:11  

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Rev 14:13

 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.And death and hell (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  Rev 20:6, 14

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Rev 21:8

Blessings!

 

 

[Samie]

Sammie I was surprise that you didn't provide these powerful Scriptures:

I surmise the texts provided are sufficient enough for the issue tackled.  There is no secret rapture because everyone will be rewarded according to his works when Jesus comes, not before He comes as would be the case if there would be a secret rapture.

[phkrause]

I surmise the texts provided are sufficient enough for the issue tackled.  There is no secret rapture because everyone will be rewarded according to his works when Jesus comes, not before He comes as would be the case if there would be a secret rapture.

This is definitely something we agree on, there will be no secret rapture!!

[Samie]

This is definitely something we agree on, there will be no secret rapture!!

Praise God for that, brother.  I guess there are yet other issues we do agree on:  Sabbath & health reform maybe.

Many, however, who don't believe there will be a secret rapture, believe in the rewarding of some of the wicked BEFORE Christ returns.  Me thinks this is quite not in consonance with the Savior's own words that when He comes again He will reward every man according to his works. I am not sure whether we are in agreement on this.