The Secret Rapture

[stinsonmarri]

Wingnut: The Bible says very clear you have to seek HIS WISDOM through THE HOLY SPIRIT!

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith ELOHIM, I will pour out of THE SPIRIT upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of THE SPIRIT; and they shall prophesy: Act 2:16-18 

There are different types of work to do, but the same ELOHIM produces every gift in every person. The evidence of the SPIRIT's presence is given to each person for the common good of everyone.  The SPIRIT gives one person the ability to speak with wisdom. The same SPIRIT gives another person the ability to speak with knowledge. Another can work miracles. Another can speak what ELOHIM has revealed. Another can tell the difference between spirits. Another can speak in different kinds of languages. Another can translate languages. 1 Co 12:6-8, 10 (GW)

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which THE HOLY SPIRIT teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co 2:13 

And he changeth the times and the seasons: HE removeth kings, and setteth up kings: HE giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: He revealed the deep and secret things: HE knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelled with HIM. Dan 2:21, 22 

The secret things belong unto YAHWEH our ELOHIM: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the Words of this Law. Deut 29:29  

The Bible says:

Study to shew thyself approved unto ELOHIM, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more unrighteousness.  2 Tim 2:15, 16 

All scripture is given by inspiration of ELOHIM, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  That the man of ELOHIM may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:16, 17  

You see I pray and study not adding or taking away from the Bible. I also to believe that words have been changed in the Bible. So I look up words through word origins which provides their original meaning. EGW is a supplement to the Bible and I know if she cannot supply Scriptures to back up what is reveal, the is her thoughts. She has made it very clear about error and not to take her over the Bible. Here I have given you Scriptures to show the truth. You and Rachael have not shown anywhere the rapture and the Bible clearly states every eye shall see YAHSHUA coming in the clouds of GLORY! ELOHIM said HE will send a strong delusional for those to believe a lie! ELOHIM also deals with numbers Three, four makes seven, 10, 12. THREE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS, four corner on the Golden Horn represented the four corners of the earth and there were only four horses! 10 means universal, 12 sons of Jacob or Israel, 12 disciples and 12 gates into the city. There are more numbers but these are some of the significant ones. Finally lines upon lines that the Bible states as well, which means symbols are put together like a puzzle. The Bible is not like other books. ELOHIM give the summation first and then breaks it down how it all comes about. When you try to read your way instead of HIS you become confuse!!!!

Blessings!

 

[stinsonmarri]

You still have not told me the secret to your being able to tell that the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse (even their name "apocalypse" implies future) are references to history, not the future.  How do you know I am wrong and you are right?

Here what this originally meant:

 

Apo- before vowels ap-, word-forming element meaning "from, away from, separate, free from," from Greek apo "from, away from; after; in descent from," in compounds, "from, asunder, away, off; finishing, completing; ceasing from; back again," from PIE root *apo- "off, away" (cognates: Sanskrit apa "away from," Avestan apa "away from," Latin ab "away from, from," Gothic af, Old English of "away from").

Calypso: sea nymph in the "Odyssey," literally "hidden, hider" (perhaps originally a death goddess) from Greek kalyptein "to cover, conceal," from PIE *kel- "to cover, conceal, save," root of English Hell (see cell). Etymology Online Dictionary

Then the English so call Christians with their many shades of meaning put these two Greek words together and here is believing that this mean some hidden future. From who? Not ELOHIM because this word is not found in the Bible. Man is so easily to believe strange doctrines from paganism that does not match with the Bible at all. Just man's vain imagination!!!!

Blessings

[8thdaypriest]

[8thdaypriest]

Wingnut: The Bible says very clear you have to seek HIS WISDOM through THE HOLY SPIRIT!

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith ELOHIM, I will pour out of THE SPIRIT upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of THE SPIRIT; and they shall prophesy: Act 2:16-18 

There are different types of work to do, but the same ELOHIM produces every gift in every person. The evidence of the SPIRIT's presence is given to each person for the common good of everyone.  The SPIRIT gives one person the ability to speak with wisdom. The same SPIRIT gives another person the ability to speak with knowledge. Another can work miracles. Another can speak what ELOHIM has revealed. Another can tell the difference between spirits. Another can speak in different kinds of languages. Another can translate languages. 1 Co 12:6-8, 10 (GW)

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which THE HOLY SPIRIT teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1Co 2:13 

And he changeth the times and the seasons: HE removeth kings, and setteth up kings: HE giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: He revealed the deep and secret things: HE knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelled with HIM. Dan 2:21, 22 

The secret things belong unto YAHWEH our ELOHIM: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the Words of this Law. Deut 29:29  

The Bible says:

Study to shew thyself approved unto ELOHIM, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more unrighteousness.  2 Tim 2:15, 16 

All scripture is given by inspiration of ELOHIM, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  That the man of ELOHIM may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:16, 17  

You see I pray and study not adding or taking away from the Bible. I also to believe that words have been changed in the Bible. So I look up words through word origins which provides their original meaning. EGW is a supplement to the Bible and I know if she cannot supply Scriptures to back up what is reveal, the is her thoughts. She has made it very clear about error and not to take her over the Bible. Here I have given you Scriptures to show the truth. You and Rachael have not shown anywhere the rapture and the Bible clearly states every eye shall see YAHSHUA coming in the clouds of GLORY! ELOHIM said HE will send a strong delusional for those to believe a lie! ELOHIM also deals with numbers Three, four makes seven, 10, 12. THREE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS, four corner on the Golden Horn represented the four corners of the earth and there were only four horses! 10 means universal, 12 sons of Jacob or Israel, 12 disciples and 12 gates into the city. There are more numbers but these are some of the significant ones. Finally lines upon lines that the Bible states as well, which means symbols are put together like a puzzle. The Bible is not like other books. ELOHIM give the summation first and then breaks it down how it all comes about. When you try to read your way instead of HIS you become confuse!!!!

Blessings!

 

Stinsonmarie:

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A "SECRET RAPTURE".  Please STOP implying that I do.  I titled my thread "Secret Rapture" to draw attention to the FACT that there is NOT a "secret rapture" or a pre-Second Coming "rapture". 

You come across as very arrogant Stinsonmarie, when you imply that Wingnut and I do not pray constantly for the understanding that only God can give through His spirit.  When you call us "confused" and say that only you are reading things in "HIS way".   That type of verbiage is NOT helpful in a discussion of our opinions concerning Bible symbolism, or Bible prophecy. 

[stinsonmarri]

Stinsonmarie:

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN A "SECRET RAPTURE".  Please STOP implying that I do.  I titled my thread "Secret Rapture" to draw attention to the FACT that there is NOT a "secret rapture" or a pre-Second Coming "rapture". 

You come across as very arrogant Stinsonmarie, when you imply that Wingnut and I do not pray constantly for the understanding that only God can give through His spirit.  When you call us "confused" and say that only you are reading things in "HIS way".   That type of verbiage is NOT helpful in a discussion of our opinions concerning Bible symbolism, or Bible prophecy. 

If what I read was wrong please forgive. I am not arrogant at all and I made a mistake just let me know I will surely correct it. I never said you did not pray Rachel, I stated what I did. I gave you what the Bible said about the gift of the SPIRIT. That I feel is true you are confuse Rachel. You feel that you can make the statement against EGW and its alright. However, if we feel that about you then we become arrogant. The verbiage is from you who feel that you must come and show that the original message we as SDA hold to is wrong. I could go over each statement you have presented against the Church because you have left them. Do I feel that there is errors also in the church, yes! But when you make out right objection to my faith, I must stand up not maliciously or with arrogant but with truth and justice according to the Bible only! You do believe that the righteous are translated when the Bible gives no evidence of that until YAHSHUA comes! So it may not be the rapture but you believe people will be taken away before HIS coming, when the Bible clearly says every eye not just the wicked but every one. You show in the Bible where the righteous are taken to Heaven before YAHSHUA'S coming!

Oh, my handle is stinsonmarri and not stinsonmarie thank you!

Blessings!

Edited October 22, 2015 by stinsonmarri

[Wingnut]

Stinsonmarri 

Rachel and I differ on the rapture and many other issues.

But I like debating with her because she does not tell me that if I had more Holy Spirit, I would come round to her way of thinking.  

Instead, she has a vast knowledge of scripture, which she uses to justify her (sometimes wrong) position on a topic.  At least I am left fully understanding why she believes the way she believes, because by the way she interprets a particular scripture, that would appear to be true.  In turn, I try to point out "But what does the Bible ALSO say?"  And so the conversation goes around in pleasant circles.

We are all on a learning curve.  You may be higher up on that learning curve than me.

I may not recognise the error of my ways because I am so low down on that learning curve.

So I ask you to spend less time praying for me, and more time pointing out scriptures relevant to the discussion which will convince me, for instance, that there is no rapture.  Such as explain to me how two can be in one bed, and one is taken and the other left.  This sounds (to uneducated me), a lot like a rapture or translation.  

And I don't believe this "translation" occurs at the very end when Christ comes with sound of trump, great glory etc.  I believe this is Him coming like a thief in the night to snatch away his believers before even the first trumpet plague.  

I don't believe that when Christ comes, any will still be sleeping in bed.  They will be hiding under that bed, screaming in terror for the mountains to fall on them to hide them from the face of Him who comes in glory like the sun, and with deafening trumpet blasts, loud enough to waken the dead.

You may feel its not worth the effort trying to turn me from my errors.  I appreciate the time and effort that goes into any post.

But quoting scriptures on how God gives wisdom to the wise is of little help to me because I have no way of telling the wise from the otherwise, other than comparing what they say against scripture. 

[8thdaypriest]

If what I read was wrong please forgive. I am not arrogant at all and I made a mistake just let me know I will surely correct it. I never said you did not pray Rachel, I stated what I did. I gave you what the Bible said about the gift of the SPIRIT. That I feel is true you are confuse Rachel. You feel that you can make the statement against EGW and its alright. However, if we feel that about you then we become arrogant. The verbiage is from you who feel that you must come and show that the original message we as SDA hold to is wrong. I could go over each statement you have presented against the Church because you have left them. Do I feel that there is errors also in the church, yes! But when you make out right objection to my faith, I must stand up not maliciously or with arrogant but with truth and justice according to the Bible only! You do believe that the righteous are translated when the Bible gives no evidence of that until YAHSHUA comes! So it may not be the rapture but you believe people will be taken away before HIS coming, when the Bible clearly says every eye not just the wicked but every one. You show in the Bible where the righteous are taken to Heaven before YAHSHUA'S coming!

Oh, my handle is stinsonmarri and not stinsonmarie thank you!

Blessings!

Sorry about misspelling your name. 

No Stinsonmarri,  I do NOT BELIEVE  the righteous will be removed from this earth UNTIL Jesus returns in the clouds in glory. 

I believe THAT will happen "at the last trump" - when the 7th trumpet sounds.  

I DO BELIEVE the righteous will be removed from this earth BEFORE the 7 last wrath plagues are poured out, or just as they are poured out.  Maybe that's where you got confused.  Because you believe the wrath plagues happen BEFORE Jesus returns.  I believe they are poured out WHEN Jesus comes. 

Wingnut seems to believe that some of the righteous will removed BEFORE Jesus returns in glory.  I do NOT believe that. 

Edited October 22, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[stinsonmarri]

So Rachel you and Wing nut do have some differences. Rachael the Seven last plagues are between the second and third woes. When the third woe comes probation has ended.

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And they heard A GREAT VOICE from Heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to Heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to THE ELOHIM of HEAVEN. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of our YAHSHUA, and of HIS MESSIAH; and he shall reign forever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before YAHWEH ELOHIM on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped YAHWEH ELOHIM,  Saying, We give thee thanks, O YAHSHUA ELOHIM ALMIGHTY, which art, and wast, and art to come; because THOU hast taken to THEE THY Great Power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and THY wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that THOU shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear THY NAME, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the Temple of ELOHIM was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in HIS Temple the Ark of HIS Testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Rev 11:7, 12-19

And I saw another sign in Heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of ELOHIM. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of ELOHIM. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of ELOHIM, and the song of THE LAMB, saying, Great and marvelous are THY works, YAHSHUA ELOHIM ALMIGHTY; JUST and TRUE are THY ways, THOU KING of saints. Who shall not fear THEE, O YAHSHUA and glorify THY NAME? for THOU only art HOLY: for all nations shall come and worship before THEE; for thy JUDGEMENT are made manifest. And after that I looked, and, behold, the Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony in Heaven was opened: And the seven angels came out of the Temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four cherubim gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of ELOHIM, who liveth forever and ever. And the Temple was filled with smoke from THE GLORY of ELOHIM, and from HIS POWER; and no man was able to enter into the Temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. Rev 15:1-8

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a GREAT VOICE out of the Temple of Heaven, from the Throne, saying, IT IS DONE. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.  And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before ELOHIM, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.  And there fell upon men a great hail out of Heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed ELOHIM because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. Rev 16:17-21 

And I heard another VOICE from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto Heaven, and ELOHIM hath remembered her iniquities. Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. Rev 18: 4, 5, 10  

Rachel the Bible is very clear when the plagues would fall during the one hour period of the beast reign which is only two month or 60 days very short time. Once all of the great multitude is sealed which will take 3 1/2 years. When the 144,000 finish using the Word of ELOHIM the Two Witness, the beast will arrive from outer space that is the bottomless pit. He will destroy the Bibles but they will not be buried. Then YAHWEH will called them up, but not the Bibles but the hidden Ark of the Covenant to prove for once and all it was exactly like the original in Heaven. It will show that no man could touch because of THE GLORY SHEKINAH of ELOHIM! The Second Woe has past and Third Woe comes quickly and this is when the plagues will fall. They will not be universal at all. The same thing is repeated about the great voices, earthquake and the hail which is both the Seventh plague and the Seventh Trumpet. What is happening is that the angels gives the summary first and each time Gabriel explain more and more what is happening once the Seven Trumpets sounds. Chapter 12-18 first goes back in time to shows how the 144,000 became the remnant also how sin started in Heaven. Satan was not kick down here to earth because earth was not created yet. The Greek word "ge" means a world that has soil and terrain. All who believes this ridiculous concept that Satan and his evil angels were cast down here are truly misguided. This earth was perfect and only Satan could tempt the pair at one tree, the Tree of Good and Evil! The Bible tell you where the angels were place in prison in darkness which is the bottomless pit on a planet that had soil and terrain but did not need a firmament like the moon. They were angels that do not need oxygen like we do!

 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, HE hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the Great Day.  Jude 1:6

When YAHSHUA comes the angels in Heaven are coming with HIM and the Bible clearly states the remnant was frighten by the earthquake and the city Jerusalem fallen killing seven thousand of thousands actually.

 

Blessings!

 

Edited October 27, 2015 by stinsonmarri

[Gregory Matthews]

Universal or global?

There is a difference. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Universal or global?

There is a difference. 

 

Thanks Gregory.  Yes - I like that.  Though "the heavens" do "pass away with a great noise".  I'm assuming those "heavens" would be just the atmosphere around our one planet.  Think I will go ahead and change the wording in the studies at my website to "global".  I do like that much better. 

Rachel,  www.prophecyviewpoint.com

[Gregory Matthews]

In the Bible, the word "heavens" may have three different meanings.

1)  Where the birds fly--a localized area surrounding this Earth.

2) Where the Stars are.

3) Where God is.

 

[phkrause]

I came across a great lecture by Lyle Albrecht about the History of the Secret Rapture!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlxWdO9pWPY

[Gustave]

It's fairly simple to instruct people about the Rapture. You WANT to be left behind.

https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/assets/newspaper_campaign_8-b69881f822865f94687dc1db4382012b215c46d120e769d05c3368fb829fe62c.pdf

[JoeMo]

15 hours ago, Gustave said:

It's fairly simple to instruct people about the Rapture. You WANT to be left behind.

https://www.biblechristiansociety.com/assets/newspaper_campaign_8-b69881f822865f94687dc1db4382012b215c46d120e769d05c3368fb829fe62c.pdf

I used this logic for over 20 years to "prove" their was no secret rapture.  I have since come to believe that their WILL be a rapture (Adventists call it "Translation" at sometime during the latter part of the Great Tribulation.

Through my studies, I have come to believe the seals to be the result of man's wrath against man, the trumpets are the result os satan's wrath against man, and the seven bowls are God's wrath against evil men.

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" (Romans 5:8-10)

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."  (1 Thes. 1:9-10)

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1 Thes. 5:9)

Rev. 14:14-20 talks about the harvest of the earth.  If one looks at the book of Rev. as more or less chronological, this harvest happens after the trumpets and before the 7 bowls of God's wrath.  I believe that God's people will be raptured or translated (whatever you want to call it) or otherwise protected before the wrath of God falls on the earth.  There is strong biblical evidence that all (or almost all) human life remaining on planet earth could be extinguished by the seven bowls of God's wrath.

This is just my current opinion.  I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong.

[Gustave]

28 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I used this logic for over 20 years to "prove" their was no secret rapture.  I have since come to believe that their WILL be a rapture (Adventists call it "Translation" at sometime during the latter part of the Great Tribulation.

Through my studies, I have come to believe the seals to be the result of man's wrath against man, the trumpets are the result os satan's wrath against man, and the seven bowls are God's wrath against evil men.

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" (Romans 5:8-10)

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."  (1 Thes. 1:9-10)

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1 Thes. 5:9)

Rev. 14:14-20 talks about the harvest of the earth.  If one looks at the book of Rev. as more or less chronological, this harvest happens after the trumpets and before the 7 bowls of God's wrath.  I believe that God's people will be raptured or translated (whatever you want to call it) or otherwise protected before the wrath of God falls on the earth.  There is strong biblical evidence that all (or almost all) human life remaining on planet earth could be extinguished by the seven bowls of God's wrath.

This is just my current opinion.  I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong.

1 Thessalonians 5,9  unless I'm missing something simply says that God didn't predestinate us for wrath BUT salvation via Christ. This lines up with other scriptures that say the same thing. 

Chrysostom, in speaking of Romans 5 8-10 says:

"And what he has said looks indeed like tautology, but it is not to any one who accurately attends to it. Consider then. He wishes to give them reasons for confidence respecting things to come. And first he gives them a sense of shame from the righteous man’s decision, when he says, that he also “was fully persuaded that what God had promised He was able also to perform;” and next from the grace that was given; then from the tribulation, as sufficing to lead us into hopes; and again from the Spirit, whom we have received. Next from death, and from our former viciousness, he maketh this good. And it seems indeed, as I said, that what he had mentioned was one thing, but it is discovered to be two, three, and even many more. First, that “He died:” second, that it was “for the ungodly;” third, that He “reconciled, saved, justified” us, made us immortal, made us sons and heirs. It is not from His Death then only, he says, that we draw strong assertions, but from the gift which was given unto us through His Death. And indeed if He had died only for such creatures as we be, a proof of the greatest love would what He had done be! but when He is seen at once dying, and yielding us a gift, and that such a gift, and to such creatures, what was done casts into shade our highest conceptions, and leads the very dullest on to faith. For there is no one else that will save us, except He Who so loved us when we were sinners, as even to give Himself up for us. Do you see what a ground this topic affords for hope? For before this there were two difficulties in the way of our being saved; our being sinners, and our salvation requiring the Lord’s Death, a thing which was quite incredible before it took place, and required exceeding love for it to take place. But now since this hath come about, the other requisites are easier. For we have become friends, and there is no further need of Death. Shall then He who hath so spared his enemies as not to spare His Son, fail to defend them now they are become friends, when He hath no longer any need to give up his Son? For it is either because a person does not wish it, or because though he may wish it perhaps,9 yet he is unable to do it, that he does not save. Now none of these things can be said of God. For that He is willing is plain from His having given up His Son. 10 But that He is able also is the very thing He proved likewise, from the very fact of His having justified men who were sinners. What is there then to prevent us any more from obtaining the things to come? Nothing! Then again, lest upon hearing of sinners, and enemies, and strengthless ones, and ungodly, thou shouldest be inclined to feel abashed and blush; hear what he says".

I'm thinking the conventional (historic Orthodox) position in this matter is the correct one. Jesus does say that at the end of days it will be like the days of Noah and in that case the saved people were who was LEFT behind. Scripture also says that in the end of days it will be like Sodom & Gomorrah and in that case it was the saved people who were LEFT behind.

Also, Matthew 13, 40 appears to be explicit in that Jesus says what happens in the end of days is that He will send out his angels to collect all the evil doers - again the saved are LEFT behind. 

It would seem stretching that text in Revelation to say it teaches a rapture would conflict with what Jesus said about the end of days would it not? 

But, I'll agree the teaching makes for interesting books and movies. 

[JoeMo]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 explicitly says that there will be a rapture.  Whether it comes before, during, or after the second coming; whether it is those taken or those left, there will be a rapture where God's elect from all ages are taken off of the earth.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

[8thdaypriest]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Rev. 14:14-20 talks about the harvest of the earth.  If one looks at the book of Rev. as more or less chronological, this harvest happens after the trumpets and before the 7 bowls of God's wrath.  I believe that God's people will be raptured or translated (whatever you want to call it) or otherwise protected before the wrath of God falls on the earth.  There is strong biblical evidence that all (or almost all) human life remaining on planet earth could be extinguished by the seven bowls of God's wrath.

The Trumpet judgments are NOT UNIVERSAL.  Notice the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.   The Bowls are universal.

In 15:2, those who have the victory over the Beast, and over his image, and over his mark, all stand on the Sea of glass, AS the 7 angels with the seven last plagues are about to pour out the "wrath of God on the earth."   The "sea of glass" is before the Throne of God in Heaven.   That means they are NOT still on the earth, when those last bowls of wrath are poured out.

[8thdaypriest]

Hebrews 1:10 [God is speaking to His Son.]   And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail."

What does "they will perish" MEAN?    What does it mean that the Son of God "will fold them up" ?

2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." (NKJ)

No one left on this planet will survive. 

I used to believe that Satan would be left alive, with his angels, on a lifeless planet earth.  Now I'm thinking that the ENTIRE (known to humans) universe, will be "perished".   Satan will be cast into the "abyss" - "the bottomless pit" - the "without form and void" (same Hebrew words translated in different ways).  Maybe the LORD will cast Satan into a black hole.  We just don't have a definition for "bottomless pit". 

At this point, I believe this world, as we know it - will be GONE.  It will be "perished", "dissolved" and passed away.  It will also be "changed".   That's the same word used to describe what happens to US.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."  

We get a new "spiritual body" and we will have a new earth to live on under new heavens.   And there will be a New Jerusalem.   I believe the NEW earth, really will be a NEW earth, not just this old one brought back to life. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 10/27/2015 at 2:18 PM, stinsonmarri said:

Rachel the Bible is very clear when the plagues would fall during the one hour period of the beast reign which is only two month or 60 days very short time. Once all of the great multitude is sealed which will take 3 1/2 years. When the 144,000 finish using the Word of ELOHIM the Two Witness, the beast will arrive from outer space that is the bottomless pit. He will destroy the Bibles but they will not be buried. Then YAHWEH will called them up, but not the Bibles but the hidden Ark of the Covenant to prove for once and all it was exactly like the original in Heaven. It will show that no man could touch because of THE GLORY SHEKINAH of ELOHIM! The Second Woe has past and Third Woe comes quickly and this is when the plagues will fall. They will not be universal at all. The same thing is repeated about the great voices, earthquake and the hail which is both the Seventh plague and the Seventh Trumpet. What is happening is that the angels gives the summary first and each time Gabriel explain more and more what is happening once the Seven Trumpets sounds. Chapter 12-18 first goes back in time to shows how the 144,000 became the remnant also how sin started in Heaven. Satan was not kick down here to earth because earth was not created yet. The Greek word "ge" means a world that has soil and terrain. All who believes this ridiculous concept that Satan and his evil angels were cast down here are truly misguided. This earth was perfect and only Satan could tempt the pair at one tree, the Tree of Good and Evil! The Bible tell you where the angels were place in prison in darkness which is the bottomless pit on a planet that had soil and terrain but did not need a firmament like the moon. They were angels that do not need oxygen like we do!

 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, HE hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the Great Day.  Jude 1:6

When YAHSHUA comes the angels in Heaven are coming with HIM and the Bible clearly states the remnant was frighten by the earthquake and the city Jerusalem fallen killing seven thousand of thousands actually.

"The Bible is very clear".   "The Bible clearly states."   These are phrases you use quite often.   You may not realize how it comes across when you say this.   It sounds as if you are saying - (to those of us who read the SAME Bible passages) that we are "misguided" or lacking the Spirit to guide us, because we do not understand the words in the same way that you do.   I believe you actually used the word "misguided".   That is another put-down word, used to diminish.  

I do not agree with the day for year fulfillment interpretation, of the prophecies concerning the Beast's reign.   I believe that the prophecies of Revelation will be fulfilled day for day, and year for year.   The Beast will persecute the "saints" for 3.5 years=42 months=1260 days.   Which means the Beast has power and authority to do this, during that time period.  

[SM]  "The beast will arrive from outer space that is the bottomless pit".    [8thDay] I had not heard that one before.   I believe that Jesus will cast Satan INTO the "bottomless pit" on the day that He returns.   I don't remember reading that Jesus will return Satan to outer space. 

[SM] "The Bible tell you where the angels were place in prison in darkness which is the bottomless pit on a planet that had soil and terrain but did not need a firmament like the moon. They were angels that do not need oxygen like we do!  [8thDay]  I doubt "the bottomless pit" is a planet with soil.  I like the idea of a black hole myself.  

I believe that Satan and his demons exist in and work from a spiritual dimension (as opposed to a physical dimension).  Paul called them "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Eph 6:12).   The good angels under Christ's command, work in that same spiritual dimension.  

 

[stinsonmarri]

19 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

"The Bible is very clear".   "The Bible clearly states."   These are phrases you use quite often.   You may not realize how it comes across when you say this.   It sounds as if you are saying - (to those of us who read the SAME Bible passages) that we are "misguided" or lacking the Spirit to guide us, because we do not understand the words in the same way that you do.   I believe you actually used the word "misguided".   That is another put-down word, used to diminish.  

I do not agree with the day for year fulfillment interpretation, of the prophecies concerning the Beast's reign.   I believe that the prophecies of Revelation will be fulfilled day for day, and year for year.   The Beast will persecute the "saints" for 3.5 years=42 months=1260 days.   Which means the Beast has power and authority to do this, during that time period.  

[SM]  "The beast will arrive from outer space that is the bottomless pit".    [8thDay] I had not heard that one before.   I believe that Jesus will cast Satan INTO the "bottomless pit" on the day that He returns.   I don't remember reading that Jesus will return Satan to outer space. 

[SM] "The Bible tell you where the angels were place in prison in darkness which is the bottomless pit on a planet that had soil and terrain but did not need a firmament like the moon. They were angels that do not need oxygen like we do!  [8thDay]  I doubt "the bottomless pit" is a planet with soil.  I like the idea of a black hole myself.  

I believe that Satan and his demons exist in and work from a spiritual dimension (as opposed to a physical dimension).  Paul called them "the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms" (Eph 6:12).   The good angels under Christ's command, work in that same spiritual dimension.  

 

Rachel, that's where we differ. The Bible is clear and let me show you:

In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.  Dan 9:2 

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint THE MOST HOLY. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto THE MESSIAH THE PRINCE shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall MESSIAH be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Dan 9:25-27 

And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. Eze 4:6 

Shâbûa‛    shâbûa‛    shebû‛âh: Properly passive participle of H7650 as a denominative of H7651; literally sevened, that is, a week (specifically of years? - seven, week.

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC); 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV); Holman Christian Standard Bible says: Seventy weeks are  490 years

English Standard; Christian Standard Bible; (CSB) gives Texts that states: Literal a day for the year, a day for the year- Lev 25:8; Num 14:34; Ezek 4:5-6

I find that words need to be defined and understood, which I again would say the Bible clearly states:

And THE SPIRIT of YAHWEH shall rest on HIM; HE will have THE SPIRIT of Wisdom and Understanding, THE SPIRIT of Counsel and power, THE SPIRIT of Knowledge and of THE FEAR (RESPECT) of YAHWEH. Isa 11:2

And HE changeth the times and the seasons: HE removeth kings, and setteth up kings: HE giveth Wisdom unto the Wise, and Knowledge to them that Know Understanding: Dan 2:21 

 Now, you may not agree with me and that is your right. It is also my right to say what the Bible says that is clear. It  is YAHWEH who gives Understanding and Knowledge through HIS Word. HIS Word compliments what is given. Meaning of words are truly important and unfortunately, people have added or subtracted and even attempt to change what HE says. But HE Said HE would not let HIS Words go void and that Rachel is clear to me.

Blessings!

[JoeMo]

stinsonmarrie,

I agree that the 70 weeks are 70 weeks of years (490 years); that is clear from the Hebrew.  However, that doesn't mean that the 2,300 evening/mornings or the 1260 days are equal to 2,300 years or 1,260 years respectively (at least to me it doesn't).

Secondly, you seem to interpret the word "Messiah" in Dan. 9:25-27 as Christ. The text does not say that.  In fact, the Hebrew word messiach simply means an anointed one.  That anointed one could be the antichrist - anointed by the world.  Verse 27 implies (at least to me) that this "messiah is the one who makes desolate; or brings about the abomination of desolation.

I also noted that you used an alternate translation in Dan. 9:27.  ..."he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."  Other translation use ..."he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.  Using the mainstream translation seems to indicate that wrath will be poured out upon this particular "messiah".

I read every single English translation of this verse; and most of them imply that this "messiah" is a desolator.

[8thdaypriest]

22 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

stinsonmarrie,

I agree that the 70 weeks are 70 weeks of years (490 years); that is clear from the Hebrew.  However, that doesn't mean that the 2,300 evening/mornings or the 1260 days are equal to 2,300 years or 1,260 years respectively (at least to me it doesn't).

Secondly, you seem to interpret the word "Messiah" in Dan. 9:25-27 as Christ. The text does not say that.  In fact, the Hebrew word messiach simply means an anointed one.  That anointed one could be the antichrist - anointed by the world.  Verse 27 implies (at least to me) that this "messiah is the one who makes desolate; or brings about the abomination of desolation.

I also noted that you used an alternate translation in Dan. 9:27.  ..."he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."  Other translation use ..."he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.  Using the mainstream translation seems to indicate that wrath will be poured out upon this particular "messiah".

I read every single English translation of this verse; and most of them imply that this "messiah" is a desolator.

Ezekiel 28:14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones." 

Many believe the "King of Tyre" (the ruler over Tyre in the Spirit realm) is Satan, also called "the ruler of this world" by Christ, in John 12:31, 14:30, and 16:11.  

The "ruler of this world is judged".  The dominion that he stole by deception will be destroyed forever  (Daniel 7:26).   This is "the end that is decreed".