whbae Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 Christ came to forgive sin? This something new to me. I thought He came to pay the penalty of the sin for us.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 2, 2016 Administrators Posted January 2, 2016 Why does that surprise you? To not condem someone who really deserves it, to suffer the consequences for the wrong done to you instead of heaping that upon the one who did you wrong - is that not simply forgiveness? Listen to how many times Jesus surprised someone by saying to them, "Your sins are forgiven", even when they were not even seeking that. The words he uttered when he healed someone were often words of forgiveness. Forgiveness and healing are perhaps really the same thing anyway. CoAspen 1 "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 4 hours ago, Tom Wetmore said: Jesus, the only one who could forgive her, the only one who could extend her mercy and grace. It was an offense against him that only he could choose to seek to penalize or forgive. It is because his nature is not to condemn but to save, not to take life, but to give it. 1] She didn't ask for forgiveness 2] Why wasn't this extended to OT characters?
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 3 hours ago, whbae said: Christ came to forgive sin? This something new to me. I thought He came to pay the penalty of the sin for us. Correct....
Wingnut Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 4 hours ago, JoeMo said: Sorry Wingnut, I have to disagree. IMO, grace WAS indeed given as a blanket gist to the entire world. It has been and always will be (in this age, at least) expended to all who would receive it. The question is, will we receive it? A few years ago, I gave one of my children a $5,000 check to help him out. He tore it up in front of me and told me he didn't need my charity; that He would dig himself out of his situation. Pride cost him $5,000. Isn't it similar to us? God offers everyone a "get out of hell free" card; and some of us say "No thanks, I don't need your charity: I'll work this out myself". I don't know why you say you are disagreeing with me when you write that it is available to all who will receive it. What I don't understand is the phrase "blanket gist". That is not English as she is spoke. Here is what I wrote again... "Grace is not blanket-given at the foundation of the world. Grace is extended to each person when they accept Christ, and daily forgive others." What I meant by "Grace is not blanket-given at the foundation of the world" is that some claim they do not have to know Christ or accept Christ to receive Eternal life. They say we are "born in the lifeboat". I say, Ellen says, and the Bible says we are not born saved. Being saved is not the default setting. If you think it is, you are very mistaken. We are born lost, and we have to accept Christ's grace, and do such things as forgive others to stay saved.
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 6 hours ago, Tom Wetmore said: How? Only by an act of mercy, grace, forgiveness. It really isn't about the law. Paul thoroughly and unequivocally disagrees with your position: Romans 7:4 "you also died to the law through the body of Christ" In order for God the Father to legally deliver you from under law (i.e., condemnation) your old life had to die in the humanity of Christ. Once that occurred you were legally delivered from under condemnation to a state of grace and forgiveness.
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 6 minutes ago, Wingnut said: Grace is extended to each person when they accept Christ, and daily forgive others." Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in transgressions (law breakers), made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 5 hours ago, JoeMo said: I also tend to think that something (arguably) "changed" at the cross. If you are thinking of the woman caught in adultery, this was before the cross.
Wingnut Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 8 minutes ago, Robert said: Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in transgressions (law breakers), made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved! Of course by grace we are saved. I agree with all scriptures. Thus I don't see what new thing you are adding.
Wingnut Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 12 hours ago, Robert said: So really the question, in my mind, remains unanswered: Why wasn't mercy extended in the OT towards the man gathering wood on the Sabbath, but in the NT not once did Christ demand the sinner's death for the transgression of the law? Why don'y you just answer this question which you posed? I am sure you think you have an answer, but I feel you are stringing this out.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 2, 2016 Administrators Posted January 2, 2016 41 minutes ago, Robert said: 1] She didn't ask for forgiveness 2] Why wasn't this extended to OT characters? That just reinforces what I have been saying. He forgave her even though she wasn't asking for it. She knew she deserved to be stoned. She didn't expect or ask for mercy. But she got it anyway. Because that is what he was here to do. Save and forgive and heal people. To set the captives of sin free. How do you set sinners free? You forgive them. phkrause and CoAspen 2 "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
GayatfootofCross Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 Some have no idea what GRACE is cause it has never been experienced or trusted or the understood rightly of Meeting the Divine! (and even experienced much by among humans) I love it when it is fleshed out to be beholdened! and Wonderment! #the Science and the Song For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 50 minutes ago, Tom Wetmore said: He forgave her even though she wasn't asking for it. Then why did He not afford the same love towards those OT characters? I've given my answer and I don't believe anyone has rejected it, but neither have I received any feedback.
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 46 minutes ago, Tom Wetmore said: She knew she deserved to be stoned. Please prove this assumption using the immediate context.
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 Let's compare the two: Number 15:32 When the Israelites were in the wilderness they found a man gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to the whole community. 34 They put him in custody, because there was no clear instruction about what should be done to him.35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; the whole community must stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So the whole community took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord commanded Moses. John 8:3 The experts in the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught committing adultery. They made her stand in front of them 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. 5 In the law Moses commanded us to stone to death such women. What then do you say?... “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.” One dies, the other lives. Why? Were OT believers guiltless before God's law? No! I've given my answer...what's your answer to this conundrum?
GayatfootofCross Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 of course some thrive on a GRACELESS religion For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Unity Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 18 hours ago, Robert said: Do you have any proof texts for your supposition? Keep in mind Christ said, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” He didn't say, " “Let any one of you who is without unconfessed sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Besides Christ was without sin and He didn't execute her. If you read the context she neither confessed her sin or asked for mercy. Also keep in mind that it was Christ who was the giver of the law. Now read the following: Number 15:32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord (Jesus) said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” Notice no mercy was extended towards this man by Christ, but in the NT there was no condemnation. Why? Jeremiah 7:23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. If the Jews didn't obey His voice then God was no longer their God and they are no longer His people. They broke His covenant, so therefore the power God gave them was gone. This is evidenced by their bondage to Rome. From the perspective of a Jew, who was thoroughly aware of the process of forgiveness, it was clearly implied that Jesus meant unconfessed sin. Sin that was repented of and confessed was symbolically cleansed by the blood of a sacrifice, and God accepted their repentance and confession by forgiving them. She didn't need to confess in order to repent and receive mercy. Jesus is a prophet so He knows her thoughts. That all makes your last question is simple. There was no mercy for that man because God is all knowing and knew the man's thoughts.
Wingnut Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Robert said: Then why did He not afford the same love towards those OT characters? I've given my answer and I don't believe anyone has rejected it, but neither have I received any feedback. Some folks think that because nobody has rejected/responded to their argument, that they have somehow carried the day. The reasons folks say nothing in response, is usually because... 1) you say you have answered it, but they cannot find where. 2) your argument may be considered frivolous, and not worthy of a response 3) your explanations may not be comprehendible, except on planet Zircondonium, where illogic is king. 4) ... one party just thinks "whatever" and refuses to invest more time, effort and emotion into this particular discussion. 5) ... because one exercises the power of the remote, such that when you think a program on TV is going nowhere slowly, you flip channels because you can. 6) ...if a teacher gets no response from their class, it may actually be because the teacher is doing such a terrible job of teaching, that the kids just want the lesson to be over. None of the above are good reasons for thinking silence means victory. For all of the above reasons, I have to say I recuse myself from this thread
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 7 hours ago, Unity said: it was clearly implied that Jesus meant unconfessed sin. This is pure conjecture on your part. There's nothing in that context that hints at what you are stating, nothing! Quote There was no mercy for that man because God is all knowing and knew the man's thoughts. There was no mercy to anyone who sinned under law. That's my point. The Jews entered into the OC at Sinai, which was and is "obey & live", "disobey & die". When anyone sinned under that covenant they were sinning under law. God would have extended grace, but they wanted to be ruled by law because in their minds they could earn salvation and thus glory in their own righteousness.
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 7 hours ago, jackson said: Robert, Paul is speaking of those who had repented and turned to Christ. They are the only one's no long under condemnation/under the law. In Romans 7:4? No....The context reveals an historical fact. "You died to the law" where? "in the body of Christ". When did Christ die? That's when your old life from Adam died.
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 6 hours ago, Wingnut said: For all of the above reasons, I have to say I recuse myself from this thread Which means you don't have a clue to the answer? At least I attempted to answer my own question. Anyway, thanks for your efforts.
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 16 minutes ago, Robert said: In Romans 7:4? No....The context reveals an historical fact. "You died to the law" where? "in the body of Christ". When did Christ die? That's when your old life from Adam died. Romans 6:6 & 2 Cor 5:15 states the exact same thing: "Our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with..." (Rom 6:6 NASB) "One died for all, and therefore all died" (2 Cor 5:15 NIV) Christ's death was a corporate death. He assumed our fallen humanity from Adam. Since we all share Adam's life after the fall and since Christ as God assumed our life at the incarnation, that corporate life also died on the cross. This fact is a past historical event.
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Robert said: Romans 6:6 & 2 Cor 5:15 states the exact same thing: "Our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with..." (Rom 6:6 NASB) "One died for all, and therefore all died" (2 Cor 5:15 NIV) Christ's death was a corporate death. He assumed our fallen humanity from Adam. Since we all share Adam's life after the fall and since Christ as God assumed our life at the incarnation, that corporate life also died on the cross. This fact is a past historical event. Now some, especially Evangelicals and Catholics, resist this idea that Christ, as God, assumed our fallen life in the person of Christ as the son of man. They say that would make Him a sinner. Well, that's baloney. Yes, we are born in iniquity, meaning we are born "bent-to-self" and because we are born spiritually dead our minds are in full agreement with the desires of our fallen nature and we automatically sin. However, Christ as the son of man was born spiritually alive. This simply means that from conception the Holy Spirit controlled His mind and therefore it was not in harmony with "our" (not His) fallen nature. So just because we are born with these self-centered natures doesn't mean we are guilty of sin. However, because we are born with these natures we do stand condemned. Why? "Flesh and blood" cannot enter the kingdom of God". Also read Romans 5:12-14 What implications did this have with Christ as the son of man? It means that Christ too was born condemned, not for sinning, but for sharing in our fallen nature. But He wasn't guilty of sin because guilt involves volition and Christ never sinned, not even by a thought. Christ as God assumed us in order to legally redeem us before His holy law.
Robert Posted January 2, 2016 Author Posted January 2, 2016 5 hours ago, Robert said: There was no mercy to anyone who sinned under law. That's my point. The Jews entered into the OC at Sinai, which was and is "obey & live", "disobey & die". When anyone sinned under that covenant they were sinning under law. Evidence: "all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified." Rom 2:12,13 If you are "under law" then you are under the terms of the Old Covenant. The law, not Christ, will be your judge. If you are under law then you better be more than a mere hearer of the law! You better be a doer of the law to be just before it. That's what Paul is stating. So, those OT characters, who died by stoning, died because they chose to be under law. They died because in their pride they thought they could gain heaven through their law performance.
Robert Posted January 3, 2016 Author Posted January 3, 2016 2 hours ago, jackson said: Paul is clear that the old life (under the condemnation of the law) dies at baptism not at Christ's death. You are kidding me, right? You can't be serious. Baptism is a symbol of what actually happened "in Christ Jesus". It was "in Christ" that your old life actual died the curse of the law. The symbol can never supersede reality. The gospel is our birth, life, death and resurrection in Christ Jesus. Everything else pales in comparison.
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