The woman caught in adultery

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, Robert said:

Give me evidence from the Scriptures where He explained the gospel.

Try all the parables, where Jesus said, "The Kingdom of God is like unto . . . . "

The story of the prodigal repentant son teaches the good news of a forgiving Father who is longing for our return. 

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, JoeMo said:

In a larger sense, I think many (if not most) denominations use fear to control their denominations.  Instilling fear in people IMHO is a form of abuse.

"If you don't pay a full tithe, God may take the money from you anyways in the form of hospital bills"  "If you don't go to church on Saturday (or Sunday), you are violating God's Law and will burn".  "If you wear that ring, you cannot hold any office in this church because you are violating then tenets of our faith". "It is (actually was) a Mortal sin to eat meat on Friday". "If you divorce your mate for anything but adultery and remarry, you are out of the church". "In the time of trouble we will face an angry God with no Mediator".  "At the end of probation, if you have left any sin unconfessed you will perish or burn in hell forever". " If you are not among the saved, God will still prepare for you a body that will last forever - designed to burn in agonizing pain for eternity".

I have heard these types of statements and many other fear-mongering threats from th pulpit of in various conversations.  To me, that constitutes emotional/spiritual abuse.

There ARE a few places where Jesus seems threatening, or at least describes God that way.

Matthew 5:30 "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."

Matthew 18:8 "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire."

Also Mark 9:43 and 45

If the Father knew that these statements would be used for two thousand years to scare people, WHY did He let Jesus say these things?  Or is it just that we misunderstand what He said?

 

[JoeMo]

4 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

There ARE a few places where Jesus seems threatening, or at least describes God that way.

Matthew 5:30 "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."

Matthew 18:8 "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire."

Also Mark 9:43 and 45

If the Father knew that these statements would be used for two thousand years to scare people, WHY did He let Jesus say these things?  Or is it just that we misunderstand what He said?

 

The verses in Mark that talk about how "the worm dieth not" are frequently used as "proof texts" for burning in hell forever.  IMHO, Jesus never meant for us to literally cut our hands off or gouge out our own eyes - that would be self-mutilation - He was just making a point emphasizing how egregious and disgusting sin is.  Taking the allegory even further, should I infer that I need to castrate myself in order to avoid sexual immorality; or cut out my tongue to prevent me from saying stupid things?   I think not.  Jesus said if I ever even THINK impure or hateful thoughts, I've already committed adultery or murder.  Being a eunich won't necessarily prevent me from sinning in my mind; and cutting of my hands won't prevent me from wishing I could strangle someone.  He suffered and died to pay the penaly for our sins so we wouldn't have to do these extreme things.

I must say, it IS indeed true that it would be better to enter the Kingdom maimed than to suffer the second death able-bodied.  I believe that whatever disabilities we have in this life will be totally healed/restored in the Kingdom.

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, Robert said:

What Christ does in you is not the gospel.  It's sanctification, the fruits of accepting the gospel.

The gospel is what Christ did to save the fallen race.  If you call what He does in you the gospel, then the gospel becomes Christ's works plus your works, which is nothing more than subtle legalism.

I love the story of Peter walking on the water.  It is completely illustrative of salvation.

The water was symbolic of sin.  We can't get to Christ (even if we wanted to) because there is a wide expanse of water to cross (sin to overcome). 

Jesus caused Peter to walk over the water, just as He causes us to overcome sin.  (Peter DID have to climb out of the boat first.)

Peter took his eyes OFF Jesus, and began to sink.  "Save me" he cried out.  And Jesus reached down and lifted him up.  Jesus "saved" him. 

We take our eyes OFF Jesus and begin to sink into sin.  But when we cry out, Jesus will lift us up again.  

When we say that Jesus saves, do we mean that Jesus will (future) save us?  Do we mean that He saves us (present). 

I feel that I am "saved" day by day, as temptations come.  I feel that I was (past tense) saved from my old life.  I know that I will be (future) saved from the presence of the Devil and his angels, and from this dying world. 
 

[8thdaypriest]

Robert says that Jesus paid for ALL SIN. 

So IF Jesus paid for ALL sins, then HOW could anyone be finally "lost".   There would be no such thing as an unforgivable sin.

But even Robert says that persons must BELIEVE when presented with the evidence.  That would mean NOT BELIEVING would be the unforgivable sin. 

I think the answer lies in the different TYPES of sin.  All sins were NOT equal in the eyes of the LORD.  1.  There were sins of ignorance.  2.  There were sins of failure (while one was trying), the type we describe as overcoming us  3.  and there were rebellious sins with attitude.  There was no sacrifice one could bring to obtain atonement, to cover rebellious sins.  When the LORD actually executed, or commanded the execution of a "sinner" - it was always one who committed a sin of rebellion.   In these cases, the LORD knew these persons would never change.  In King David's case, when his heart was changed, and he mourned his sin - at that point - his sin of rebellion, became forgivable.  It all depends upon the HEART attitude towards God. 

One is finally "lost" because he refuses to believe in Christ as Savior (when presented with the gospel), OR refuses to submit to Christ as LORD-Master (continues to sin without humble confession and without repentance - in other words, he remains rebellious). 

Belief, sorrow for sins, and humble submission ARE REQUIRED for admission to the eternal kingdom.  The Bible makes that clear. 

Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

"Willfully" - there's the sin with attitude.  Continuing rebellious sin.  That TYPE of sin is NOT forgiven - so long as the person remains in rebellion. 

 

[pnattmbtc]

Quote

Give me evidence from the Scriptures where He explained the gospel.

Where didn't He explain the gospel?  Everything Jesus did and said was explaining the gospel.

[pnattmbtc]

On 1/7/2016 at 2:28 AM, Robert said:

This isn't telling me how Christ saved us.....

It's explaining how Christ saves us:

Quote

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

Note the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

[JoeMo]

9 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Note the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Acts 15:11)

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.(Rom. 10:9)

Seems pretty obvious to me.

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, jackson said:

In response to your post read your comments in blue and my answers in black:

Why would the LORD have a different standard - different requirement - different way, for saving children, slaves, ignorant pagans, or mentally disabled?  I just think the LORD will maintain the same standard, and the same condition for "salvation" - that is - BELIEF in Christ as Lord and Savior.  And in order to BELIEVE, a human being MUST HEAR.  And in order to HEAR, person's who died in ignorance or immaturity, must be resurrected to continue their physical lives. THAT is where my belief concerning the "rest of the dead" comes from - God's standard method for salvation.

Ezek 9:6   Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house. ......  9:10   And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, [but] I will recompense their way upon their head. 

Rachel comments:  When Jerusalem suffered siege and then conquest by the Babylonians and the Romans, many little children starved or were killed.  And when this world finally is destroyed by the last plagues, and is "burned up" millions of "little children" will die - yes, but that does not mean these children will never be resurrected to continue their physical lives, to HEAR the truths of God, and then to CHOOSE whom they will serve. 

You Jackson, believe "the rest of the dead" will be the wicked from the 6000 years of this age.  You believe it because Mrs White said it.  I have grave doubts concerning her writings. 

2 Kings 2:23    And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.   2:24        And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Rachel comments:  THESE were unruly "youths" - teenagers - not "little children".

Rather than manufacture scenarios in areas where God has not chosen to reveal His ways let us, through faith, rest in the thought of Moses:  "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"Gen 18:25

How God has determined the righteous and wicked in these cases is His secret for now.

"Saving" them without their consent, would be unjust.  Leaving them eternally dead - simply because they never HEARD, would also be unjust.  Besides, sins of ignorance were automatically covered (until such time as the person's became aware they had sinned).

Sins of ignorance covered  only for those who demonstrate  faith.

Psm 58:3      The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies

Jerm  1:5“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Luke 12:47      And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].  12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes].

Paul said that all have some innate knowledge of right and wrong and are judged accordingly. ( See Rom 1:19-20. and  Rom 2:13-15)

 

I put a few comments in RED above.

I believe the "innate knowledge of right and wrong", is simply the influence of the spirit of God on their minds. 

There are many stories in the Bible, which included the deaths of children.  The flood of Noah comes to mind.  The destruction of Jericho and other cities in Canaan, when the LORD commanded them to "kill everything that breathes".   When Dathan and Abiram went down "into the pit", their children went with them.   None of these stories precludes the resurrection of these children at the 8th millennium. 

You say that I am manufacturing scenarios "in areas where God has not chosen to reveal His ways".   I believe the LORD has given us a revelation of His plan.  It was there all along, in the symbolism of "the 8th day"  in the Sanctuary.   It is described in many prophecies - prophecies which traditional Adventist teaching cannot explain. 

    Isaiah 61:4-9  “And they shall rebuild the old ruins.  They shall raise up the former desolations. And they shall repair the ruined cities, the desolations of many generations.  Strangers [non-Israelites] shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the foreigner [non-Israelite] shall be your plowmen and your vine dressers.  But you shall be named the Priests of the LORD.  Men shall call you the Servants of our God.  You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory you shall boast.  Instead of your shame you shall have double honor, and instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.  Therefore in their land they shall possess double [the inheritance of the firstborn].”  “Everlasting joy shall be theirs.  For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, and will make with them an everlasting covenant.  Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people.  All who see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”

Who are these "strangers" and "son of the foreigner" who will plow fields and feed flocks?  These "Priests of the LORD" are obviously not Levite.  Levites had no inheritance in the land, and these priests receive a "double portion". 

This is just one example of such prophecies. 

 

[pnattmbtc]

Quote

 

Me:Note the question, "How, then, are we to be saved?"

JoeMo:But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Acts 15:11)

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Acts 16:31)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.(Rom. 10:9)

Seems pretty obvious to me.

 

I would expect Robert to respond that the being saved here is speaking of a subjective experience of the believer, which is based on an objective truth, which I agree with.  I disagree regarding what the objective truth is.  To Robert the objective truth is that Christ in His corporate humanity has solved a legal problem, which is how God can legally justify (a question of legal status) people who have violatged God's law, and still maintain the integrity of His law.  This is hardly something easy to get excited about, and it is absent from Jesus' teachings.

What I believe the object truth is that Jesus Christ what sort of being God is, answering the false claims of the enemy, which caused the whole mess to start with, among both men and angels.  Our reconciliation takes place when we believe, as the texts you cited bring out.

[Robert]

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[pnattmbtc]

Why does Paul use "οἱ πολλοί" in vs 19, instead of "πάντας ἀνθρώπους " as in vs. 18? (i.e. "the many" vs. "all men").

[Robert]

1 hour ago, pnattmbtc said:

Why does Paul use "οἱ πολλοί" in vs 19, instead of "πάντας ἀνθρώπους " as in vs. 18? (i.e. "the many" vs. "all men").

"The many" were made sinners doesn't imply some were not made sinners...All have sinned and come short of God's glory....Come on, use common sense.

[pnattmbtc]

3 hours ago, Robert said:

"The many" were made sinners doesn't imply some were not made sinners...All have sinned and come short of God's glory....Come on, use common sense.

You're saying "the many" Paul is using synchronously with "all"?  You don't see the problem with this idea?

[Robert]

8 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

You're saying "the many" Paul is using synchronously with "all"?  You don't see the problem with this idea?

Look at verse 15: "For if by the transgression of the one (Adam) the many died"

Now I'll prove "the many" refers to "all men"

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned...

1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die"

[pnattmbtc]

6 hours ago, Robert said:

Look at verse 15: "For if by the transgression of the one (Adam) the many died"

Now I'll prove "the many" refers to "all men"

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned...

1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die"

Read all of verse 19, and see if you don't see a problem with understanding "the many" as meaning the same thing as "all".

[Robert]

12 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Read all of verse 19, and see if you don't see a problem with understanding "the many" as meaning the same thing as "all".

The problem is yours....not mine.

[pnattmbtc]

9 hours ago, Robert said:

The problem is yours....not mine.

These sorts of responses are puerile.

The second half of verse 19 is in the future tense.  If "the many" means "all", then Paul is saying that all will be made righteous.  This is not referring to the death or resurrection of Christ, because it's future tense.