JoeMo Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 28 minutes ago, Robert said: What I know is God never gives up....To harden one's heart means one must know the truth... God abandons the sinner when he persistently and ultimately rejects the good news. God never abandons us (See Hebrews 13:5). It is us who abandon Him. Same result. When we start ignoring God (e.g., grieving His Spirit) we can (and frequently do) become lost.
8thdaypriest Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 19 hours ago, jackson said: Exactly. "What must I do to be saved?" That is the most important question to be asked and answered by all. The rich young ruler and the jailer did not ask "What did Jesus do to save me?", but rather "What must I do to be saved unto eternal life?. Of course what Jesus did is of the utmost importance, but knowing what He did, admiring what He did and telling others what he did will neither justify or save you. In order to receive either justification , sanctification or salvation we have a part to play because the scriptures are clear that Christ's gifts are only bestowed upon those that believe unto repentance. Paul summarized his preaching of the gospel in Acts 20:20-21 [And] how I kept back nothing that was profitable [unto you], but have showed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. How God judges children and the uninformed has not been revealed, None need concern themselves about those things which the Lord has not revealed to us. In these days, speculation will abound, but God declares, "The secret things belong unto the Lord." Deuteronomy 29:29. ...... {CT 248.2} It should be the determination of every soul, not so much to seek to understand all about the conditions that will prevail in the future state, as to know what the Lord requires of him in this life...... Christ's work of self-denial and sacrifice brought into the daily life will develop the faith that works by love and purifies the soul. There are many who wish to evade the cross-bearing part, but the Lord speaks to all when He says, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." Matthew 16:24. {CT 249.1} I agree with what you've posted Jackson. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." (Acts 16:31) "You will be saved." Which MEANS you are NOT presently saved, but WILL BE (future tense) when you believe. Romans 10:9 “If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” Galatians 3:22 “But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.” John 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:” Galatians 3:26-27 and 4:6 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” “And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, ‘Abba, Father!’” If you have NOT BELIEVED, then you have NOT "put on Christ" and are NOT "sons of God". I Thessalonians 3:16 [Persecution by Jews and pagans] “forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved,” To paraphrase Paul, “If we don’t speak to the Gentiles about Christ, they cannot be saved.” Which MEANS they were not yet saved. They had to HEAR the message about Christ, and believe it - believe in HIM, before they could be "saved". 8thdaypriest
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: You never responded directly to the argument I presented, but I can infer a response. The argument is: 1.Paul said anyone who preached a different gospel than he did should be accursed. 2.Jesus Himself preached the gospel. 3.Therefore Paul and Jesus preached the same gospel. I infer from your request for proof that Jesus preached the gospel that you disagree that He did so. This is correct? It is your contention that Jesus Christ did not preach the gospel. Quote Games.... Prove all this using the Bible. You can't. Do you know why you can't? Because you rely too much on other authors. Go to the Bible.. It certainly looks like you are doing the game playing! You ask questions, and they get answered. Others ask you questions, and you dodge them, and then accuse others of doing what you are doing. The question I'm asking is a Bible question. It has nothing referring to any other authors. You are dodging the question because you know you cannot answer it. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
8thdaypriest Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 19 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said: I agree with what you've posted Jackson. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." (Acts 16:31) "You will be saved." Which MEANS you are NOT presently saved, but WILL BE (future tense) when you believe. Romans 10:9 “If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” Galatians 3:22 “But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.” John 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:” Galatians 3:26-27 and 4:6 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” “And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, ‘Abba, Father!’” If you have NOT BELIEVED, then you have NOT "put on Christ" and are NOT "sons of God". I Thessalonians 3:16 [Persecution by Jews and pagans] “forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved,” To paraphrase Paul, “If we don’t speak to the Gentiles about Christ, they cannot be saved.” Which MEANS they were not yet saved. They had to HEAR the message about Christ, and believe it - believe in HIM, before they could be "saved". This is to continue my last post: Jackson, Why would the LORD have a different standard - different requirement - different way, for saving children, slaves, ignorant pagans, or mentally disabled? I just think the LORD will maintain the same standard, and the same condition for "salvation" - that is - BELIEF in Christ as Lord and Savior. And in order to BELIEVE, a human being MUST HEAR. And in order to HEAR, person's who died in ignorance or immaturity, must be resurrected to continue their physical lives. THAT is where my belief concerning the "rest of the dead" comes from - God's standard method for salvation. "Saving" them without their consent, would be unjust. Leaving them eternally dead - simply because they never HEARD, would also be unjust. Besides, sins of ignorance were automatically covered (until such time as the person's became aware they had sinned). When Mrs White wrote that the LORD would leave the slave "dead like the beast", and could not take the ignorant slave to Heaven, everyone reading that statement assumed she meant "leave the slave ETERNALLY dead". But that's not what she wrote. The Lord WILL leave every ignorant person DEAD (including children) for 1000 years. He will NOT take ignorant persons to Heaven, to prepare for the priesthood. That statement was true - AS WRITTEN. She did not go on to say that the Lord will resurrect that ignorant slave when "the rest of the dead" "live again" AFTER the 1000 years. THEN he will hear the truths of Christ, and THEN he will have the opportunity to CHOOSE. She did not go on, because she herself had not be "given" or "shown" anything concerning such people. Why can't the story of "The 8th Day" be one of those "new truths" that Mrs White wrote about? The LORD did not want to pioneers to understand the 8th Day. Understanding the 8th millennium, and "the rest of the dead" would have slowed or stopped all missionary efforts. Just leave people ignorant, and they will be saved in the kingdom. No need to teach them. Concerning the descriptions of Gog/Magog in Great Controversy: Uriah Smith actually wrote most of Great Controversy. Mrs White believed that "the rest of the dead" would be the wicked, BECAUSE that is what the church elders of her day believed. When she describes being "shown" the destruction of the wicked (at Gog/Magog), it's very possible she was actually "seeing" the destruction of the wicked at the Second Coming. (That's assuming she was a prophet who received visions from God. I'm not totally convinced of that.) It's similar to her statement that the last plagues (leading up to the glorious appearance of Christ) "not universal". "Not universal" describes the trumpet judgments (1/3, 1/3, 1/3, 1/3). The "vial" or "bowl" judgments ARE UNIVERSAL. It's very possible that her visions were interpreted through the lens of their present understanding - back at that time. The "dark day" was caused by smoke from large fires up in Canada. It was certainly NOT worldwide. The stars falling from heaven, was a meteor shower - not anything that actually hit on earth with the weight of 100 pounds as described in Revelation. Just as descriptions and prophecies from Revelation have been applied differently, at different times since the book was written, so Mrs White's visions may not have been correctly interpreted, by those who first heard them, not even by Mrs White herself. THAT is one BIG PROBLEM with Robert's position. JoeMo 1 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 The Sanctuary/Temple model presents a picture of progression towards cleanness, and towards the presence of God. There was the courtyard, then the holy place, then the Most Holy Place. Progression... The leper was declared "clean" but he was NOT clean enough to enter the camp, or clean enough to enter the Tabernacle. It was a process. We see the same process in the words - justified, sanctified, glorified. The person begins a journey, commits to a relationship, the day he is baptized. That relationship will be tested. The person must continue the relationship, always drawing nearer to Christ, in order to be finally saved. He must DECLARE his commitment, thru what he does from that day on, so that others may see. So that other human beings may finally judge by his works (should he not finally be among the saved). So those of the redeemed can agree with God, that this person would not be happy in Heaven. Most here at CA do NOT believe in once-saved-always-saved. Infants have NO WORKS to judge. (And no - I do not agree they can be judged on the works they might have done.) Another reason why I believe that those who died in immaturity or ignorance, must "live again" during the 8th millennium, to demonstrate - by their works, the CHOICE they have made. 8thdaypriest
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 Quote Robert: It's not just the man gathering wood on the Sabbath. Many were put to death under law in the OT. This is from page one. I'm curious as to what you have in mind here. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 3 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: You are dodging the question because you know you cannot answer it. "Jesus Himself preached the gospel." Yes, you keep stating this. Show me where He and Paul said the same thing. Yes? You will not find it because Christ didn't go into details - Christ was the gospel. It was Paul, through Christ and God the Father, who was chosen to explain the gospel.
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: This is from page one. I'm curious as to what you have in mind here. I've actually explained myself. You might have to go back a few pages. At least we are back on subject.
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Robert said: "Jesus Himself preached the gospel." Yes, you keep stating this. Show me where He and Paul said the same thing. Yes? You will not find it because Christ didn't go into details - Christ was the gospel. It was Paul, through Christ and God the Father, who was chosen to explain the gospel. I don't need to show that they preached the same thing. It is enough that Jesus Christ preached the gospel, because, according to Paul, anyone who preached a different gospel than he (Paul) did should be accursed. Surely you would assert that Jesus should be accursed. So your only recourse is to assert that Jesus Christ didn't preach the gospel at all, which is absurd. In the Gospel Commission in Matthew, Jesus said that "this gospel" should be preached to all nations, so clearly Jesus Christ preached the gospel. If Jesus Christ *didn't* preach the same gospel Paul did, then there is the problem with what Paul said, that anyone who preached a different gospel than he did should be accursed. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
JoeMo Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 In a larger sense, I think many (if not most) denominations use fear to control their denominations. Instilling fear in people IMHO is a form of abuse. "If you don't pay a full tithe, God may take the money from you anyways in the form of hospital bills" "If you don't go to church on Saturday (or Sunday), you are violating God's Law and will burn". "If you wear that ring, you cannot hold any office in this church because you are violating then tenets of our faith". "It is (actually was) a Mortal sin to eat meat on Friday". "If you divorce your mate for anything but adultery and remarry, you are out of the church". "In the time of trouble we will face an angry God with no Mediator". "At the end of probation, if you have left any sin unconfessed you will perish or burn in hell forever". " If you are not among the saved, God will still prepare for you a body that will last forever - designed to burn in agonizing pain for eternity". I have heard these types of statements and many other fear-mongering threats from th pulpit of in various conversations. To me, that constitutes emotional/spiritual abuse.
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 25 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: I don't need to show that they preached the same thing. It is enough that Jesus Christ preached the gospel, because, according to Paul, anyone who preached a different gospel than he (Paul) did should be accursed. Surely you would assert that Jesus should be accursed. So your only recourse is to assert that Jesus Christ didn't preach the gospel at all, which is absurd. In the Gospel Commission in Matthew, Jesus said that "this gospel" should be preached to all nations, so clearly Jesus Christ preached the gospel. If Jesus Christ *didn't* preach the same gospel Paul did, then there is the problem with what Paul said, that anyone who preached a different gospel than he did should be accursed. Oops! Surely you would NOT assert that Jesus should be accursed. Sorry about that. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 1 minute ago, JoeMo said: In a larger sense, I think many (if not most) denominations use fear to control their denominations. Instilling fear in people IMHO is a form of abuse. "If you don't pay a full tithe, God may take the money from you anyways in the form of hospital bills" "If you don't go to church on Saturday (or Sunday), you are violating God's Law and will burn". "If you wear that ring, you cannot hold any office in this church because you are violating then tenets of our faith". "It is (actually was) a Mortal sin to eat meat on Friday". "If you divorce your mate for anything but adultery and remarry, you are out of the church". "In the time of trouble we will face an angry God with no Mediator". "At the end of probation, if you have left any sin unconfessed you will perish or burn in hell forever". " If you are not among the saved, God will still prepare for you a body that will last forever - designed to burn in agonizing pain for eternity". I have heard these types of statements and many other fear-mongering threats from th pulpit of in various conversations. To me, that constitutes emotional/spiritual abuse. It certainly doesn't present a very favorable picture of God. It reminds me of when Jesus said that His followers would be persecuted, and those doing so would think they were doing God's bidding. What sort of picture of God must one have to believe such a thing? And similarly for what you are talking about. Can God be pleased if we need to resort to coercion to get people to do things? If this did please God, what would this say about God? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: It is enough that Jesus Christ preached the gospel... Give me evidence from the Scriptures where He explained the gospel.
pnattmbtc Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, Robert said: Me: It is enough that Jesus Christ preached the gospel... Robert: Give me evidence from the Scriptures where He explained the gospel. You changed words here, but I did provide evidence. The Great Commission for one. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: You changed words here, but I did provide evidence. The Great Commission for one. You're on another planet. Talking about the gospel isn't understanding the gospel. Let's just keep our conversation to instead of jumping back and forth.
pnattmbtc Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, Robert said: You're on another planet. Talking about the gospel isn't understanding the gospel. Let's just keep our conversation to instead of jumping back and forth. Yes, Jesus preached the same gospel as Paul. Paul got the gospel from Jesus Christ. Here's the Gospel: Quote 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:14-16 This is what Paul preached. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Wingnut Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 21 hours ago, Robert said: You keep telling me that Christ preached the gospel. Give me proof....Show me where He and Paul said the same. Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ Romans 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. Gal 1 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. JoeMo 1
Robert Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. . This isn't telling me how Christ saved us.....
Robert Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 7 hours ago, Wingnut said: Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ Romans 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. Gal 1 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Okay, but what's the gospel?
Wingnut Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 "THE Gospel" with a definite article "the" proves there is one and only one true Gospel. Any other Gospel would be "another" Gospel. Why would any Apostle, or one sent out by Christ to further THE Gospel, preach another Gospel? Did James preach another Gospel when he said "Faith without works is dead"? Or is this part of the same Gospel?
Wingnut Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 1 hour ago, Robert said: Okay, but what's the gospel? Would you like me to define "is" too In its broadest sense, the Gospel is everything from Matthew to Revelation. In its narrowest sense, it is "The Gospel of the Kingdom of God", where King Jesus is seeking out a people who believe on Him, to be citizens of His eternal kingdom. To those accepting His Lordship over their lives and wills, He grants grace, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life.
Robert Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 12 minutes ago, Wingnut said: Would you like me to define "is" too In its broadest sense, the Gospel is everything from Matthew to Revelation. In its narrowest sense, it is "The Gospel of the Kingdom of God", where King Jesus is seeking out a people who believe on Him, to be citizens of His eternal kingdom. To those accepting His Lordship over their lives and wills, He grants grace, forgiveness of sins, and eternal life. No, that's not the gospel. The gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ as both the Son of God and the Son of man.
Robert Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 28 minutes ago, Wingnut said: Did James preach another Gospel when he said "Faith without works is dead"? What Christ does in you is not the gospel. It's sanctification, the fruits of accepting the gospel. The gospel is what Christ did to save the fallen race. If you call what He does in you the gospel, then the gospel becomes Christ's works plus your works, which is nothing more than subtle legalism.
Robert Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 We have the same topic on two different threads. I will not be responding here unless it's own the subject. We are dicussing the gospel on the below thread and that's where I'll respond:
pnattmbtc Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 5 hours ago, Robert said: This isn't telling me how Christ saved us..... Read the previous verse. Nicodemus understood. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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