"In Christ" - the gospel as taught by Paul

February 2, 2016

2 hours ago, joeb said:

And the truth is that the concept of ga'al is the legal foundation for substitutionary atonement.

I am not against the idea that Christ purchased us with His own blood. It is Scriptural. What I am up in arms against is the idea that Jesus died the second death, simply because Scriptures do not seem to teach it.

February 2, 2016

1 hour ago, Samie said:

I am not against the idea that Christ purchased us with His own blood. It is Scriptural. What I am up in arms against is the idea that Jesus died the second death, simply because Scriptures do not seem to teach it.

Jesus took my penalty for my sins. My penalty was death, eternal if it had not been abrogated by the blood and death of Jesus. He did not substitute a short term death in suffering but the same penalty I no longer face as a result of the free gift of life. Can I explain it? I have all eternity to marvel at my good fortune. It is beyond my comprehension and until Jesus gives me His capabilities, I will never be able to explain it. But He will give me the capacity of appreciating it throughout eternity. For how long?

53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55"O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?"…1 Corinthians 14

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

February 2, 2016

19 hours ago, Samie said:

Back to Scriptures: The lake of fire is the second death. Rev 20:14. Jesus died on the cross. Not in the lake of fire. Therefore Jesus did not die the 2nd death.

The reason unbelievers die in the lake of fire is because God has abandoned them.

The reason Christ died is because God abandoned Him. Hence, "My God...why have you abandoned Me?"

February 2, 2016

Romans 5:13 ...."sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam."

Notice that the human race between the fall of Adam until Moses, where the law was posted, were dying. Why? Not because of "the curse of the law", but because all men shared in Adam's fallen life. In other words those between Adam and Moses could not have died the second death. Therefore this was their first death.

Now, examine Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”

The curse of the law is the second death. Deuteronomy 21:22 “If a man has committed a sin worthy of death (the unpardonable sin) and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day for he who is hanged is accursed of God

February 2, 2016

8 hours ago, joeb said:

I have so much scriptural evidence for this that it would take you many many hours to read it all. It took me hundreds of hours of study to find it all.

Then it is too complicated. The gospel, the truth as it is "in Christ", is not complicated.

February 2, 2016

4 hours ago, Robert said:

Then it is too complicated. The gospel, the truth as it is "in Christ", is not complicated.

The quote below is well worth the time spent reading. However these few excerpts are the readers digest version.

“the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” [Psalm 111:10.]

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” [2 Timothy 3:16, 17.]

The prophet asks, “Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? Or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken?” [Jeremiah 18:14.] The Lord answers, “My people hath forsaken me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, in a way not cast up.”

[Jeremiah 18:15.]

“Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised.” [Jeremiah 9:23, 24.] {CE 103.1}

O that our youth would treasure up the knowledge that is imperishable, that they can carry with them into the future, immortal life, the knowledge that is represented as gold and silver and precious stones! The class of educators and learners who deem themselves wise,
know
nothing as they ought
to know
it. They need
to
learn meekness and lowliness in the school of Christ, that they may esteem highly that which Heaven regards as excellent. Those who receive a valuable education, one that will be as enduring as
eternity
, will not be regarded as the world’s best educated men. But the Scriptures declare that “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” [
Psalm 111:10
.] This kind of knowledge is below par in the estimation of the world, and yet it is essential for every youth
to
become wise in the Scriptures, if he would have eternal life. The apostle says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of
God
, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of
God
may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” [
2 Timothy 3:16, 17
.] This is broad enough. Let all seek
to
comprehend,
to
the full extent of their powers, the meaning of the word of
God
. A mere superficial reading of the inspired word will be of little advantage; for every statement made in the sacred pages requires thoughtful contemplation. It is true that some passages do not require as earnest concentration as do others; for their meaning is more evident. But the student of the word of
God
should seek
to
understand the bearing of one passage upon another until the chain of truth is revealed
to
his vision. As veins of precious ore are hidden beneath the surface of the earth, so spiritual riches are concealed in the passages of Holy Writ, and it requires mental effort and prayerful attention
to
discover the hidden meaning of the word of
God
. Let every student who values the heavenly treasure put
to
the stretch his mental and spiritual powers, and sink the shaft deep into the mine of truth, that he may obtain the celestial gold,—that wisdom which will make him wise unto salvation.
{CE 100.2}

If half the zeal manifested in seeking to comprehend the bright ideas of infidels, was manifested in studying the plan of salvation, thousands who are now in darkness, would be charmed with the wisdom, the purity, the elevation of the provisions of God in our behalf; they would be lifted out of and away from themselves in wonder and amazement at the love and condescension of God in giving his only begotten Son for a fallen race. How is it that many are satisfied to drink at the turbid streams that flow in the murky valley, when they might refresh their souls at the living streams of the mountains? The prophet asks, “Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? Or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken?” [Jeremiah 18:14.] The Lord answers, “My people hath forsaken me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, in a way not cast up.” [Jeremiah 18:15.] {CE 101.1}

It is a sad fact that men who have been entrusted with fine capabilities to be employed in the service of God, have prostituted their powers in the service of evil, and laid their talents at the feet of the enemy. They submitted in the most servile bondage to the prince of evil, while rejecting the service of Christ as humiliating and undesirable. They looked upon the work of the follower of Christ as a work below their ambition, that required a stepping down from their greatness, a species of slavery, that would enthrall their powers, and narrow the circle of their influence. He who had made an infinite sacrifice that they might be set free from the bondage of evil, was set aside as unworthy of their best efforts and most exalted service. {CE 102.1}

These men had received their talents from God, and every gem of thought by which they had been esteemed worthy of the attention of scholars and thinkers, belongs not to them, but to the God of all wisdom, whom they did not acknowledge. Through tradition, through false education, these men are exalted as the world’s educators; but in going to them students are in danger of accepting the vile with the precious; for superstition, specious reasoning, and error are mingled with portions of true philosophy and instruction. This mingling makes a potion that is poisonous to the soul,—destructive of faith in the God of all truth. Those who have a thirst for knowledge need not go to these polluted fountains; for they are invited to come to the fountain of life and drink freely. Through searching the word of God, they may find the hidden treasure of truth that has long been buried beneath the rubbish of error, human tradition, and opinions of men. {CE 102.2}

The Bible is the great educator; for it is not possible prayerfully to study its sacred pages without having the intellect disciplined, ennobled, purified, and refined. “Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised.” [Jeremiah 9:23, 24.] {CE 103.1}

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

February 2, 2016

11 hours ago, Robert said:

The curse of the law is the second death. Deuteronomy 21:22 “If a man has committed a sin worthy of death (the unpardonable sin) and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day for he who is hanged is accursed of God

The verse, Deut 21:22, does not say the curse of the law is the second death. Rev 21:14 is plainly saying the lake of fire is the second death. Jesus died on the cross, NOT in the lake of fire. How could have He died the second death that annihilates people cast into it to extinction when His death brought people life?

February 2, 2016

11 hours ago, Robert said:

The reason unbelievers die in the lake of fire is because God has abandoned them.

The reason Christ died is because God abandoned Him. Hence, "My God...why have you abandoned Me?"

I think it is quite a hasty conclusion that just because God abandoned Christ and so Christ died, that He died the second death. God also abandoned the Israelites and they died in the hands of their enemies. Is dying in the hands of their enemies also second death?

February 3, 2016

10 hours ago, Samie said:

I think it is quite a hasty conclusion that just because God abandoned Christ and so Christ died, that He died the second death. God also abandoned the Israelites and they died in the hands of their enemies. Is dying in the hands of their enemies also second death?

But the 2nd death is goodbye to life forever without the possibility of a resurrection.

February 3, 2016

On 2/2/2016 at 1:12 AM, Robert said:

Then it is too complicated. The gospel, the truth as it is "in Christ", is not complicated.

LOL..... Really? How long does it take to study out the sanctuary symbology which is nothing other than the gospel in symbols? It takes years to come to a complete understanding of it. How long does it take to fully understand the book of Revelation? Just because something takes a long time to study out doesn't invalidate it.

And the "in Christ" motif not complicated? It requires the acceptance of non-Biblical concepts. It requires a person to believe in metaphysical baloney that must be read into certain Bible verses as well as the ability to ignore large portions of the Bible. It also requires a person to believe Paul contradicts himself and other parts of the Bible. So, not complicated? Don't make me laugh. It's far to too complicated for me to accept.

February 3, 2016

On 2/2/2016 at 7:25 PM, Samie said:

I am not against the idea that Christ purchased us with His own blood. It is Scriptural. What I am up in arms against is the idea that Jesus died the second death, simply because Scriptures do not seem to teach it.

If Jesus didn't pay our ultimate penalty of death, the second death, why do the wicked pay that penalty and we do not? Second, if Jesus only died the same temporary death all humanity dies, why do Christ's followers die the first death? jesus, according to you, paid that debt.

Now, as to the scapegoat.... The two goats were brought to the sanctuary. One was called the "Lords goat" and the other the scapegoat. The "Lord's goat" was slain and his blood sprinkled on the alter and mercy seat. The other was led away alive after the high priest transferred all confessed sin to it. It was led away into the wilderness. What is this earth called in the Bible during the millenium? A wilderness. Who lives there? The devil and his angels. The symbolism is very plain.

In what version of the Gospel does Jesus not die for sin? In what version of the Gospel is Jesus led into the wilderness to bear sin? I can answer both questions. In no Biblical version of the Gospel does either event happen.

February 3, 2016

On 1/26/2016 at 1:11 PM, Robert said:

Really? Then you are accusing the Apostle Paul of deception. Do you really desire to go there?

LOL. I hadn't seen this before so I couldn't answer it before. I'm accusing Paul of nothing. He didn't teach such heresy. I've studied everything we have that he wrote and I find it nowhere in in his writings. He agrees with the rest of the Bible at all times. The "in Christ" motif does not. Just because he used the two word phrase "in Christ" doesn't mean he agrees with you and Sequira. Far from from it. If he was alive today he'd call you out on perverting his writings.

February 4, 2016

14 hours ago, joeb said:

And the "in Christ" motif not complicated? It requires the acceptance of non-Biblical concepts.

I'm using mostly Paul. How is he unbiblical?

February 4, 2016

13 hours ago, joeb said:

Just because he (Paul) used the two word phrase "in Christ" doesn't mean he agrees with you and Sequira. Far from from it. If he was alive today he'd call you out on perverting his writings.

So all you have to offer me is rhetoric? Disprove me verse by verse, if you can....

Quote

"being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" [Rom 3:24]

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ" [Rom 6:23]

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" [Rom 8:1]

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death" [Rom 8:2]

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and justice and sanctification and redemption" [1 Cor 1:30]

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" [2 Cor 5:17]

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses" [2 Cor 5:19]

"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law" [Gal 2:16]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" [Eph 1:3]

God "raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" [Eph 1:6]

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ." [Eph 2:13]

"be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith" [Phil 3:9]

"we present every man perfect in Christ Jesus" [Col 1:28]

"not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began" [2 Tim 1:9]

February 4, 2016

On 2/2/2016 at 3:30 PM, Samie said:

The verse, Deut 21:22, does not say the curse of the law is the second death.

What curses the lost, hell? No, the law. To be under law means to be under its jurisdiction. What does the law demand? "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." [Gal 3:10]

The 2nd death is the result of being abandoned by God. In Christ's case it meant being handed over to cruel Roman. In the case of the lost it means being abandon to the destructiveness of a world coming apart at the seams.

February 4, 2016

Thanks, Robert & joeb for your replies.

We just agree to disagree first on the issue of Jesus dying the second death. Again, for me, Christ's death is unique. He alone died that death and that death brought us life; hence it could not be the second death, which the Bible says are for those whose names are not found written in the book of life.

The Yom Kippur live goat released in the land uninhabited clearly represents Jesus and His death, as I have earlier posted and no one refuted. joeb talked about satan bearing our sins in the millennium but there is no Scriptures for that. As to abandonement, the Israelites were likewise abandoned by God, but Robert have yet to comment whether they likewise died the second death. As to payment, Jesus has already paid with His death, and joeb has yet to comment on why there is need to repay what had been paid if indeed Jesus died the second death as payment and yet many will again pay what had been paid by dying the second death.

February 4, 2016

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

As to abandonment, the Israelites were likewise abandoned by God, but Robert have yet to comment whether they likewise died the second death.

God withdrew His protection and they died the 1st death, not the 2nd.

The 2nd death is God abandonment both of His protection and His re-creative power to raise one to life.

February 4, 2016

We are told, in Rom 6:6, that "our old life was crucified with Him that the sinful body might be done away with."

Did "our old life", our "sinful body", come up in the resurrection of Christ as our corporate head?

No!

Then what happened to our fallen, corporate life?

Answer: That life died forever. That's the 2nd death.

Then what was resurrected Sunday morning?

Keep in mind that "Deity did not sink and die".

February 4, 2016

7 minutes ago, Robert said:

We are told, in Rom 6:6, that "our old life was crucified with Him that the sinful body might be done away with."

Did "our old life", our "sinful body", come up in the resurrection of Christ as our corporate head?

No!

Then what happened to our fallen, corporate life?

Answer: That life died forever. That's the 2nd death.

Then what was resurrected Sunday morning?

When Jesus did away with our sinful life on His cross and replaced it with His eternal and righteous life in the resurrection, He created a new humanity out of the old. This is what Paul meant when he declared to the believers at Corinth: "If anyone is in Christ [that is, accept by faith their new history in Christ], he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

[see page 107 Savior of the World]

see: http://screamingrockmedia.com/documents/resources-docs/15-saviour-of-the-world-jack-sequeira.pdf

February 4, 2016

35 minutes ago, Robert said:

God withdrew His protection and they died the 1st death, not the 2nd.

The 2nd death is God abandonment both of His protection and His re-creative power to raise one to life.

What is the difference between "withdrawal of protection" and "abandonement"?

KJV Deuteronomy 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

KJV 2 Kings 21:14 And I will forsake the remnant of mine inheritance, and deliver them into the hand of their enemies; and they shall become a prey and a spoil to all their enemies;

February 4, 2016

18 minutes ago, Robert said:

When Jesus did away with our sinful life on His cross and replaced it with His eternal and righteous life in the resurrection, He created a new humanity out of the old. This is what Paul meant when he declared to the believers at Corinth: "If anyone is in Christ [that is, accept by faith their new history in Christ], he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Are you saying it is only when one accepts by faith their new history in Christ that one becomes a new creation?

February 4, 2016

Actually, I quoted Jack S.

He is saying that one is accepting that "in Christ" one is already a new creation. When Christ was raised by the Father, He was raised with a "new creation" or a glorified life. This truth occurred about 2000 years ago. So again we are accepting something that is already true. This "new creation" isn't speaking of our Christian walk because "all things" haven't become new.

February 4, 2016

How about those who have lived and died without knowing about Christ?

February 4, 2016

46 minutes ago, Samie said:

How about those who have lived and died without knowing about Christ?

That doesn't change what is already true of our glorified humanity in the second Adam, Christ.

So your question is how can they accept Christ indirectly?

February 4, 2016

2 hours ago, Robert said:

That doesn't change what is already true of our glorified humanity in the second Adam, Christ.

So your question is how can they accept Christ indirectly?

Yes.

And since people are "in Christ", can they be "detached from Christ"? If so, when and how?

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