"In Christ" - the gospel as taught by Paul

[Robert]

20 hours ago, Samie said:

And since people are "in Christ", can they be "detached from Christ"? If so, when and how?

You know, this is a very good question.  In fact it is worthy of a new thread.  Go here for an answer:  

https://clubadventist.com/forums/topic/64658-since-people-are-in-christ-can-they-be-detached-from-christ/

[Samie]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

The following verses show that there are conditions to "justification" and being "in Christ" . Neither gift becomes ours without our willing consent ; hence neither gift is received at the cross. The cross is where with great sacrifice  provision is made for those gifts to be available to all who would so desire them and act upon that desire:   

Jackson;

From your statement above, it would follow that people are born NOT “in Christ”. And to be NOT “in Christ” is to be separate from Christ, to be NOT part of His body, to be spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). Now, in the last part of your statement, you said that to be able to receive the provision made at the cross, one has to desire them and act upon that desire.

So, HOW can one who is still separate from Christ and is yet spiritually dead being NOT “in Christ”, able to desire and act upon that desire, when Christ Himself said that separate from Him one can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? You seem to be saying that while separate from Christ, one can do things: they can desire and then act upon that desire. Seems like your position is not in accord with what Christ Himself said.

Are you able to explain this? If so, please elucidate.

[Samie]

For me, the verses that were enumerated by jackson tell us, in a nutshell, to overcome evil with good. Doing spiritual things like believing, repenting, deciding to be baptized, etc., are deeds, spiritual deeds, doable only by those who are already spiritually alive, by those who are already "in Christ". AS the physically dead are not able to do any physical act, SO the spiritually dead are not able to do any spiritual act.

[8thdaypriest]

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

A person who is baptized "into" Christ, is then "in" Christ. 

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

For me, the verses that were enumerated by jackson tell us, in a nutshell, to overcome evil with good. Doing spiritual things like believing, repenting, deciding to be baptized, etc., are deeds, spiritual deeds, doable only by those who are already spiritually alive, by those who are already "in Christ". AS the physically dead are not able to do any physical act, SO the spiritually dead are not able to do any spiritual act.

Romans 8:10 "However, if the Messiah is in you, then, on the one hand, the body is dead because of sin; but, on the other hand, the Spirit is giving life because God considers you righteous. (CJB)

There's an IF in this verse.  "IF Christ is in you" . . .  then God regards you as righteous.

If Christ is "in you" - then you are spiritually "alive".   The "spirit of Christ" is giving you life. 

Before Christ can ENTER the heart, the person must open "the door".  And yes - that's an ACTION - at least of the mind.  It is a RESPONSE to Christ.  It's not done in a vacuum.  It's done because of Christ. 

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

The person has the power, the ability - to "open the door" - to believe.  God has given that ability to us.  He protects us from the power of Satan (who would take over our minds, thus preventing us).  But even the demoniac cried out to Jesus.  The wrong words came out his mouth, but Jesus "heard" his heart cry. 

We are "born of the spirit" WHEN the spirit of Christ comes "in" to our heart/mind.  (John 3:6&8).  Jesus said, "You MUST be born again."   This wording does NOT support the teaching that every human being was "born again" or was "in Christ" from the moment Christ died on the cross, OR from eternity when His death was promised. 

 

[Robert]

7 hours ago, jackson said:

The following verses show that there are conditions to "justification" and being "in Christ" . Neither gift becomes ours without our willing consent ; hence neither gift is received at the cross. The cross is where with great sacrifice  provision is made for those gifts to be available to all who would so desire them and act upon that desire...

Christ died once for all.  In fact when "One died, all died".  That is more than provisional; it's a finished work.

Furthermore some cannot consent, like infants and those who are mentally handicapped.  

To you the cross does nothing.  If so, then all infants who die before then can consent and all folks who can't reason and therefore consent, are eternally lost.  

What you are present is a smug, self-righteous, cliquish gospel.  In other words I must do this and that then this provisional gift becomes mine, but only after I do something.  Hence it is a tool used for boasting.  You can say, "My faith saved me"....or "baptism saved me" .... or "my repentance saved me", etc. In fact you inferred that in order to retain justification we must keep the law.

[Robert]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus said, "You MUST be born again."   This wording does NOT support the teaching that every human being was "born again" or was "in Christ" from the moment Christ died on the cross, OR from eternity when His death was promised. 

Who was Christ speaking to when He stated "You must be born again"?  Was it a child or toddler?  Was it a handicapped person?  No!  It was a very intelligent, highly educated Pharisee who thought that he knew the law inside and out.  In other words Jesus was speaking to an adult.

[Robert]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

A person who is baptized "into" Christ, is then "in" Christ. 

Come on...you can do better than this.  Baptism is a symbol of something that has already taken place.  

Your view places merit on baptism. 

[Robert]

Adventists traditionally belong to the Wesleyan Arminian school of theology.  Unlike the Calvinists, who believe that Christ saved only the elect on the cross, hence “limited atonement,” the Arminians believe that Christ only “potentially” or “provisionally” saved all of mankind on the cross.  For this provisional salvation to become a reality, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ.  Only then will God place that person into Christ and the provision will become a reality.  Thus, traditionally, we Adventists have limited the in Christ motif only to believers.

... this conclusion is a subtle form of legalism, salvation by works, since repentance and faith contribute towards ones salvation.  Whereas, according to Paul, it is the goodness of God (the reality phase or objective facts of the gospel) that leads one to faith and repentance (Romans 2:4).  Hence, faith is not allowing God or giving Him permission to put us into Christ but accepting with grateful hearts what God has already accomplished for mankind in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 5:18-20; Ephesians 1:3-4).  [JS]

[8thdaypriest]

25 minutes ago, Robert said:

Come on...you can do better than this.  Baptism is a symbol of something that has already taken place.  

Your view places merit on baptism. 

Robert - you are being dismissive - which is disrespectful!!  Leave out the dismissive words.  Simply state your position, and the reasons for your position.   

[8thdaypriest]

27 minutes ago, Robert said:

Come on...you can do better than this.  Baptism is a symbol of something that has already taken place.  

Your view places merit on baptism. 

Baptism is the OUTWARD EXPRESSION of belief in what Christ did.  This ceremony is REQUIRED of all those capable of it.  The disciples taught baptism, as Jesus commandment.

Those who are baptized in faith, are "buried with Him".

Romans 6:4 "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death." 

The "old man" of sin dies, and a "new man" is raised from death to life - BECAUSE of the man's belief in the ability of Christ, to give him life. 

This change (in the man) does not happen without the man's knowledge of Christ, and the man's belief in Christ.  Christ did not "save" this man, without his knowledge or consent. 

Peter told the jailer, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be (future tense) saved"  (Acts 16:31).

2 Corinthians 5:17 "So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! (NRS)

IF every human being (who ever existed, or would exist) was rendered "in Christ" when He died on the cross, then for most people physically born since Christ died, there was nothing "old" to pass away.  In Robert's scenario (and Samie's) those people born since Christ died, were all born "in Christ" and therefore "new".  There was no "old" in their lives, prior to their knowledge of Christ, or belief in Him as Savior. 

Looking at ISIS terrorists, or drug lords, or most criminals in prisons - these people have NOT "become new".  They have NOT been "born again".  The "old" has NOT "passed away".  It is still very much present, in their thinking and in their behavior.   The same could be said of those who died as criminals, pagans, or terrorists.  The "old" may have died when they physically died, but nothing became "new". 

 

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

Christ died once for all.  In fact when "One died, all died".  That is more than provisional; it's a finished work.

Furthermore some cannot consent, like infants and those who are mentally handicapped.  

To you the cross does nothing.  If so, then all infants who die before then can consent and all folks who can't reason and therefore consent, are eternally lost.  

What you are present is a smug, self-righteous, cliquish gospel.  In other words I must do this and that then this provisional gift becomes mine, but only after I do something.  Hence it is a tool used for boasting.  You can say, "My faith saved me"....or "baptism saved me" .... or "my repentance saved me", etc. In fact you inferred that in order to retain justification we must keep the law.

As you know - I believe that those who died without the knowledge of Christ, whether as infants, ignorant pagans, or mentally handicapped, will be resurrected with "the rest of the dead" to HEAR the Gospel, and to CHOOSE whether they will serve Christ Jesus, or rebel against Him.  This during the 8th millennium. 

Therefore my understanding of the Gospel of Christ, does provide for such persons.  They were/are NOT "saved" without their understanding or consent.  They will NOT be transported into immortal bodies, to serve Christ - without their awareness or consent.  Their minds will NOT be magically/supernaturally changed, to bring them into submission to Christ.  THAT is MANIPULATION. 

My God is NOT a manipulator!!!

It is NOT  "smug, self-righteous, or cliquish" to believe that consent and submission are required, for citizenship in Christ's forever dominion.  Obedience is simply an outward confession of belief and submission. 

  "Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."  Jesus said, "I am the way" (Jn 14:6).   So - if Jesus is "the way" and "few" will find this "way", how does this FIT with the view that everyone was "saved" when Jesus died?  That would mean no one had to "find it".  They were already there - "in Christ", simply because they once lived, or would live. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

For me, the verses that were enumerated by jackson tell us, in a nutshell, to overcome evil with good. Doing spiritual things like believing, repenting, deciding to be baptized, etc., are deeds, spiritual deeds, doable only by those who are already spiritually alive, by those who are already "in Christ". AS the physically dead are not able to do any physical act, SO the spiritually dead are not able to do any spiritual act.

I'm thinking of the paralytic, let down thru the roof.  His legs were DEAD. Right?  So then HOW could he "rise" or take up his bed?  His legs were "made alive" as the spirit of God flowed into them - giving them life.  But this happened AS the man used his WILL, attempting to "rise".  It did NOT happen before the man made the effort.  The man did not KNOW that he had been healed BEFORE he made the effort to rise.  His healing took place AS he made the effort.  As the man made the EFFORT to obey the command of Christ, life from God flowed into those legs - giving them life. 

It's the same way with every person who obeys the command of Christ to "walk in newness of life".  As we make the effort, the spirit of Christ flows into us - giving us the power to do.  We don't "do" without Him.  His spirit enables the doing.  And that includes believing.  Believing is NOT something we DO for God.  It is something we do, with the help of His spirit - touching our minds.

Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was counted for righteousness (Gal 3:6).  Abraham was "counted righteous" WHEN he "believed God".  Not before.  If Abraham had resisted the Spirit of God, he would NOT have been "counted righteous".

[8thdaypriest]

The paralytic made the effort BECAUSE he believed Christ - not because he already felt movement in his legs.  You could say that he rose "by faith" in the power of Christ. 

[LifeHiscost]

17 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

As you know - I believe that those who died without the knowledge of Christ, whether as infants, ignorant pagans, or mentally handicapped, will be resurrected with "the rest of the dead" to HEAR the Gospel, and to CHOOSE whether they will serve Christ Jesus, or rebel against Him.  This during the 8th millennium.  

"Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."  Jesus said, "I am the way" (Jn 14:6).   So - if Jesus is "the way" and "few" will find this "way", how does this FIT with the view that everyone was "saved" when Jesus died?  That would mean no one had to "find it".  They were already there - "in Christ", simply because they once lived, or would live. 

 

I'm satisfied this text below  indicates clearly there will be many who will find entrance into God's kingdom, without the fullness of spiritual knowledge within themselves of Jesus, but identifiable by God ordained deeds (the moral law, ten commandments) done in their body.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

37“Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,^f you were doing it to me!’.....Matthew 25

[8thdaypriest]

When Christ cried out "It is finished" - His "work" as Lamb of God - was finished.  He would never need to die again. 

"for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself" (Heb 7:27 NKJ)

But the Tabernacle presents Christ as our High Priest also.  And that is another work - which is NOT YET "finished". 

[8thdaypriest]

3 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

I'm satisfied this text below  indicates clearly there will be many who will find entrance into God's kingdom, without the fullness of spiritual knowledge within themselves of Jesus, but identifiable by God ordained deeds (the moral law, ten commandments) done in their body.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

37“Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,^f you were doing it to me!’.....Matthew 25

I don't disagree with you LHC.  The spirit of Christ has touched/influenced many who did not know His name.  I also know that many a career criminal, or terrorist has come to know Christ.  Before they came to know Him, they were cruel.  But they surrendered when they came to understand who He really is, and what He did for them.  How many who died in ignorance, would have come to Christ if they had knowledge of Him.  I believe that God will give them the opportunity - during the 8th millennium, under the governance and teaching of the "priests of God and of Christ".   After all - what need of priests, if everyone has already been saved at the Second Coming. 

[8thdaypriest]

There is no good reason to "go therefore and teach" or "make disciples" if all humanity was "saved" the moment Christ died. 

Just leave them be.  Why risk their salvation?

In fact - teaching them only makes them more responsible.  They may reject the teaching - and be "lost", when they WERE "saved" before they HEARD the Gospel.  

We've all heard about crazy mothers killing their "innocent children" so they can go to Heaven.    If a mother believed like Robert, it wouldn't be so "crazy".  It would guarantee their salvation. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 1/20/2016 at 7:51 AM, Robert said:

"being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" [Rom 3:24]

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ"  [Rom 6:23]

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" [Rom 8:1]

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death"  [Rom 8:2]

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and justice and sanctification and redemption" [1 Cor 1:30]

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" [2 Cor 5:17]

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses" [2 Cor 5:19]

"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law" [Gal 2:16]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" [Eph 1:3]

God "raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" [Eph 1:6]

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ." [Eph 2:13]

"be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith" [Phil 3:9]

"we present every man perfect in Christ Jesus" [Col 1:28]

"not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began" [2 Tim 1:9]

 

 

 

"in Christ"

"in" - Strong's #1722 evn en {en}
Meaning:  1) in, by, with etc.
Origin:  a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep
Usage:  AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321; 2782

Robert always quotes the word "in" - to complement and strengthen his teaching that every human being was metaphysically merged with Christ's body on the cross. 

But the word translated "in", can just as legitimately be translated "through" or "by".   Try going through this list of verses, substituting "by" or "through" - for "in". 

[LifeHiscost]

23 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I don't disagree with you LHC.  The spirit of Christ has touched/influenced many who did not know His name.  I also know that many a career criminal, or terrorist has come to know Christ.  Before they came to know Him, they were cruel.  But they surrendered when they came to understand who He really is, and what He did for them.  How many who died in ignorance, would have come to Christ if they had knowledge of Him.  I believe that God will give them the opportunity - during the 8th millennium, under the governance and teaching of the "priests of God and of Christ".   After all - what need of priests, if everyone has already been saved at the Second Coming. 

The Apostle Paul is a perfect example of a terrorist, warring against the body of Christ wherein Jesus went above and beyond what many of us would see as reasonable mercy but proved to save not only Paul, but multiplied millions as a result of his ministry. I've come to the conclusion it isn't safe for me to put God into a box of my choosing.

…7The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 8Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9Be hospitable to one another without complaint.…1 Peter 4

God is Love!!~Jesus saves!

[8thdaypriest]

On 1/20/2016 at 7:51 AM, Robert said:

"being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" [Rom 3:24]

Yes - salvation is found through no other name.  What does that have to do with your teaching, that every person was "saved" when Christ died?

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ"  [Rom 6:23]

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" [Rom 8:1]

Because those "in Christ" have "passed from death to life", does NOT mean those NOT presently "in Christ" will definitely end up in the lake of fire.  It means they are undecided, and therefore judgment against them is pending. 

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death"  [Rom 8:2]

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and justice and sanctification and redemption" [1 Cor 1:30]

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" [2 Cor 5:17]

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses" [2 Cor 5:19]

If every human was reconciled to God WHEN Christ died, then why would Paul still be preaching "We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God." (2Co 5:20 NIV)

"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law" [Gal 2:16]

The verse says it all. 

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" [Eph 1:3]

God "raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" [Eph 1:6]

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ." [Eph 2:13]

Paul is saying that the Gentiles WERE "far off".  According to Samie, no one ever WAS "far off".  Everyone was "brought near" before the foundation of the world. 

"be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith" [Phil 3:9]

Righteousness is "though faith in Christ".  When one believes (has faith) - it is accounted to him for righteousness.  Just like Abraham, the father of those who BELIEVE. 

"we present every man perfect in Christ Jesus" [Col 1:28]

Paul is NOT saying that every human being is "perfect" - meaning perfectly righteous.  The last verse says that righteousness is "through faith in Christ".  WHEN we believe - THEN we are accounted righteous (perfect), in the sight of God. 

"not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began" [2 Tim 1:9]

Yes - before time began, God the Father and Christ the Son entered in to a "covenant of peace" to offer forgiveness to those who would "be reconciled" .

 

I fail to see that any of these verses teaches universal salvation - the universal conditional salvation (you can stay "saved" IF you believe and "overcome evil with good works") taught by Robert and Samie. 

[8thdaypriest]

Robert,

I've been told that you've posted here for some 15 years.  I'm NOT posting because I believe that I can change your understanding of the Gospel.  You quote the same verses that I read.  I just understand them differently.  What your posting has done, is to push me to read those verses again, and again - with prayer - digging deeper for the meaning.  In the process, I have been strengthened in my understanding.  So - I thank you for your posting. 

[Samie]

11 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Before Christ can ENTER the heart, the person must open "the door".  And yes - that's an ACTION - at least of the mind.  It is a RESPONSE to Christ.  It's not done in a vacuum.  It's done because of Christ. 

For one’s spiritual mind to act, the man must first be spiritually alive. The action of opening “the door” of the heart is an action, a spiritual action, doable only by those who already are spiritually alive. The action is not done to become spiritually alive. It's just spiritually impossible.

Christ was emphatic in saying that separate from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5). And when one is yet separate from Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4), he is spiritually dead; his spiritual mind cannot do the spiritual act of responding by opening his heart's door. Otherwise, while separate from Christ, man is able to do something, making Christ's statement false.  Christ's knocking is done NOT in the hearts of the spiritually dead, but in the hearts of those who already are spiritually alive, for God is a God of the living, NOT of the dead (Luke 20:38).

 

[Samie]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I fail to see that any of these verses teaches universal salvation - the universal conditional salvation (you can stay "saved" IF you believe and "overcome evil with good works") taught by Robert and Samie. 

I think you have the same view as jackson. I have posted a question for jackson, and am reposting it here, so we stay on the same page:

Quote

 

Jackson;

From your statement above, it would follow that people are born NOT “in Christ”. And to be NOT “in Christ” is to be separate from Christ, to be NOT part of His body, to be spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). Now, in the last part of your statement, you said that to be able to receive the provision made at the cross, one has to desire them and act upon that desire.

So, HOW can one who is still separate from Christ and is yet spiritually dead being NOT “in Christ”, able to desire and act upon that desire, when Christ Himself said that separate from Him one can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? You seem to be saying that while separate from Christ, one can do things: they can desire and then act upon that desire. Seems like your position is not in accord with what Christ Himself said.

Are you able to explain this? If so, please elucidate.

 

Would you please directly address this issue, Rachel? Thanks.

[Robert]

15 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

IF every human being (who ever existed, or would exist) was rendered "in Christ" when He died on the cross,....

"If"? 

Paul tells us in 2 Cor 5:14 that when "One died, all died".  Hence in order for our corporate humanity to have died in Christ then it must have been united to Christ at the incarnation.  

To oppose this truth is to teach a hybrid of the Immaculate Conception, which is a heresy.