"In Christ" - the gospel as taught by Paul

[Samie]

On 10/02/2016 at 0:17 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

How many times do I have to repeat it.  No one BELIEVES without Christ.  His spirit DRAWS.  It PULLS the person towards BELIEF and surrender.  The person cannot BELIEVE or have faith, without this HELP - this LIFE - this Spirit of Christ.  No one BELIEVES apart from (without) Christ.  But BEFORE the person surrenders to the pulling, pleading Spirit - he is NOT "justified" or "in Christ". 

Rachel;

It is either you are teaching salvation by works (surrender first to be justified or to be "in Christ"), Or, you likewise believe that before a person surrenders, he had been made spiritually alive first, otherwise he cannot do the spiritual act of surrendering to the drawing of the spirit.

Again, to be "in Christ" is to be spiritually alive, to be attached to Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4).

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, Samie said:

Rachel;

It is either you are teaching salvation by works (surrender first to be justified or to be "in Christ"), Or, you likewise believe that before a person surrenders, he had been made spiritually alive first, otherwise he cannot do the spiritual act of surrendering to the drawing of the spirit.

Again, to be "in Christ" is to be spiritually alive, to be attached to Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4).

The paralytic's legs were DEAD.  Life from Christ flowed INTO those legs.  The man stood up and walked. 

THAT's the process.

If you were correct Samie, then all human beings would be ALIVE - attached to Christ.  But the Bible says all humans are "dead in trespasses and sins" UNTIL they are made alive by the inflowing Spirit of Christ.  So - a person is spiritually DEAD - until life from Christ flows INTO that person. The person then believes, and then acts from that belief - OR the person resists the Spirit and remains DEAD.  Believing is a RESPONSE to the Spirit of Christ. 

The whole point is that a person CAN RESIST the Spirit of Christ - and thereby remain spiritually DEAD.   

You are saying that every human being is filled with the Spirit - from birth, and is therefore spiritually alive.   I don't accept that. 

You're saying that a person is filled with the Spirit from birth - until/if Christ separates from that person, because of sins.   While I do accept that a person can HAVE the Spirit and then LOOSE the Spirit, because of persistent rebellious sins, I do not believe that persons are indwelt by the Spirit of Christ until the age of belief and consent. 

The person either RESISTS or ACCEPTS the Spirit.  That is our part to do.  We either RESPOND or we RESIST. 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 2/12/2016 at 6:14 PM, Samie said:

Rachel;

It is either you are teaching salvation by works (surrender first to be justified or to be "in Christ"), Or, you likewise believe that before a person surrenders, he had been made spiritually alive first, otherwise he cannot do the spiritual act of surrendering to the drawing of the spirit.

Wrong Samie.  Just wrong.  The Spirit DRAWS and ENABLES. 

Again, to be "in Christ" is to be spiritually alive, to be attached to Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4).

You're NOT "attached" until you CONSENT by believing. 

John 12:32  "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (NIV)

Jesus did NOT SAY that He would merge all people with himself, or take all people INTO Himself.  He just said "draw". 

So everyone is DRAWN, but some RESIST. 

Those who do NOT RESIST - the Spirit of Christ does live in those people.  Jesus said, "I will come in to him, and sup with him." 

"Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Col 1:27 NKJ)

Here's part of the New Covenant promise:

Ezekiel 37:14 "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"

[Samie]

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The paralytic's legs were DEAD.  Life from Christ flowed INTO those legs.  The man stood up and walked. 

That's the process.

The man was alive. It was his legs, a body part, that can't function.  Those legs were already attached to the man when those legs were healed. Those legs were "in the man" when given life.  So with our being "in Christ". We were already "in Christ" when spiritually made alive.

Instead of favoring your position, the paralytic analogy you offered seem to favor my position that we were made alive already "in Christ".

[Samie]

1 hour ago, jackson said:

Not in accord with Christ? Did not Christ say the following:

Rev 3:20          Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 Obviously your conclusion that "spiritually dead" means there is no way one can hear his voice and open the door is  in error. Or is it your belief that Jesus is asking the impossible in Rev 3:20? 

Might it be that every man is given a measure of faith by which to respond to Jesus'knocking for entrance?

Rom 12:3      ....., according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 

Jesus is not asking the impossible. The fact that people can do the spiritual acts of hearing His call and opening their heart's door, is proof enough of their being spiritually alive. And to be spiritually alive is to be "in Christ" Who is our life (Col 3:4).

People are able to hear His call and able to open their heart's door because they are already spiritually alive, NOT the other way around, as your position seems to teach.

[Samie]

44 minutes ago, jackson said:

 . . Loving obedience to the commandments of God is not legalism or self-righteous works   but  Godly duty and your reasonable service.,

It is also called overcoming evil with good. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

[Robert]

6 hours ago, jackson said:

No one is justified or saved in willful disobedience. Loving obedience to the commandments of God is not legalism or self-righteous works   but  Godly duty and your reasonable service.,

You are preaching a gospel that is similar to the RCC.  Salvation therefore equals faith + works.  This is the same gospel preached by the Judaizers of Paul's day.  Simply put you are teaching salvation by obedience to the law.  The problem is you are not obeying the law and therefore you cannot be justified before it.  See Romans 2:13

[Robert]

6 hours ago, jackson said:

Would you call the following verses part of the smug, self-righteous gospel of Paul?

1 Cor 6:9    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,   6:10    Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

You must look at the whole context and not quote what fits your legalistic gospel. 

8.... you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor cheaters will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were.....

Notice that the believers in Corinth were cheating their own brothers and sisters. The question that begs answering is what does Paul mean by "this is what some of you were"?  Clearly cheating was going on in the church of Corinth. Why then did Paul write in the past tense? To answer this question we must read the rest of verse 11

"But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

If these "cheaters" were "washed", "sanctified" and "justified" (all in the past tense) then why didn't they stand condemned as do the "unrighteous"?

Because believers have been delivered from under law and "in Christ" they already stand justified and sanctified.  See 1 Cor 1:30  So even though some of these members were cheating other believers they were not linked to the unrighteous because of their position "in Christ".  It is the unbeliever, the unrighteous, who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, Samie said:

The man was alive. It was his legs, a body part, that can't function.  Those legs were already attached to the man when those legs were healed. Those legs were "in the man" when given life.  So with our being "in Christ". We were already "in Christ" when spiritually made alive.

Instead of favoring your position, the paralytic analogy you offered seem to favor my position that we were made alive already "in Christ".

I used physically DEAD legs, to illustrate a spiritually DEAD mind.  The spiritually DEAD mind, was in a physically alive person.

Samie - I just don't agree with you.  I think you ignore a great many Scriptures, which do not support your position.  You quote verses out of context.  You quote a passage from one translation which seems to support your position, when almost all other translations do not. 

I'll just post back when/as I have time and energy.  Reading your posts, and thinking thru my answers, has certainly strengthened me - in my understanding.  So thank you.