"In Christ" - the gospel as taught by Paul

[Samie]

My belief in the "In Christ" motif is limited to 3 important basics:

1. That all people died "In Christ" at the cross, and

2. That all people were made alive "In Christ" when He resurrected.

3. That all who decide to remain "In Christ" by overcoming evil with good will be rewarded with eternal life.

Sin caused man's forfeiture of life eternal. Man may pay for his sin by his own death to gain back eternal life forfeited but still could not enjoy eternal life because he already died and cannot resurrect himself. And because God is love, He sent Christ, man's nearest kinsman, to do what man cannot do and restore to man what man forfeited, IF and only IF man decides to remain "In Christ" by overcoming evil with good.

[Samie]

The popular gospel being preached teaches that people must first believe to be "In Christ". This simply redounds to saying that people can do SOMETHING (they can believe) while NOT "In Christ" Who said man can do NOTHING when not in Him (John 15:4,5).  Sounds like the popular gospel goes against what Christ preached.

[LifeHiscost]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

My belief in the "In Christ" motif is limited to 3 important basics:

1. That all people died "In Christ" at the cross, and

2. That all people were made alive "In Christ" when He resurrected.

3. That all who decide to remain "In Christ" by overcoming evil with good will be rewarded with eternal life.

Sin caused man's forfeiture of life eternal. Man may pay for his sin by his own death to gain back eternal life forfeited but still could not enjoy eternal life because he already died and cannot resurrect himself. And because God is love, He sent Christ, man's nearest kinsman, to do what man cannot do and restore to man what man forfeited, IF and only IF man decides to remain "In Christ" by overcoming evil with good.

This is something that ought to be read by anyone who feels they have ought to bring to Christ except his sin polluted self  and repentance, that is a gift of the Holy Spirit, accompanied by the grace of Jesus.

http://www.sealingtime.com/resources/featured-speakers/allan-lindsay/the-king-is-coming-soon-allan-lindsay

God is Love!~JESUS SAVES!  Hope you have a

 

[Robert]

17 hours ago, Samie said:

My belief in the "In Christ" motif is limited to 3 important basics:

1. That all people died "In Christ" at the cross, 

2 Cor 5:14 For the [agape] of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died

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2. That all people were made alive "In Christ" when He resurrected.

Eph 2:5 ...even when we were dead in trespasses, (God) made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved, 6 and raised us up with Christ, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

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3. That all who decide to remain "In Christ" by overcoming evil with good will be rewarded with eternal life.

 John 15:3 You are already clean (i.e., perfect in Me) because of the word I have spoken to you. 

4 Now remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing (i.e., nothing good)....

[Robert]

20 hours ago, joeb said:

You cannot "prove" the "in Christ" motif from the OT. 

I have never tried so I don't know if your claim is valid or not.  Neither does it matter to me since Paul explains it very well.  

[Robert]

The In Christ Motif

Adventists traditionally belong to the Wesleyan Arminian school of theology.  Unlike the Calvinists, who believe that Christ saved only the elect on the cross, hence “limited atonement,” the Arminians believe that Christ only “potentially” or “provisionally” saved all of mankind on the cross.  For this provisional salvation to become a reality, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ.  Only then will God place that person into Christ and the provision will become a reality.  Thus, traditionally, we Adventists have limited the in Christ motif only to believers.

The main argument that has often been used to prove that the in Christ motif applies only to believers is Romans 16:7.  In this chapter of greetings Paul makes this statement:  “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison on with me....  They were in Christ before I was” (NIV, emphasis mine).  Clearly, what Paul is implying is that these two men accepted the truth as it is in Christ and were converted before Paul himself.  To build a whole theology on this one text while ignoring all the other in Christ texts Paul uses (some 64 times) is very poor exegesis, to say the least.

Further, this conclusion is a subtle form of legalism, salvation by works, since repentance and faith contribute towards ones salvation.  Whereas, according to Paul, it is the goodness of God (the reality phase or objective facts of the gospel) that leads one to faith and repentance (Romans 2:4).  Hence, faith is not allowing God or giving Him permission to put us into Christ but accepting with grateful hearts what God has already accomplished for mankind in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 5:18-20; Ephesians 1:3-4).

It is here where I disagree with the teachings of the Biblical Research Institute (BRI) of the GC, as well as some of the Independent Ministries.  I believe that the true everlasting gospel, which God raised the Advent Movement to proclaim to the world in its global mission, is neither the limited atonement of Calvinism nor the provisional salvation of Arminianism.  Rather, it is the incredible good news that on the cross the entire human race was actually or objectively redeemed, justified, and reconciled to God by the death of His Son (John 3:17; 17:4; 19:30; Romans 5:5-10,18; Ephesians 2:5, 6, 8, 9; 2 Corinthians 5:19).

[Robert]

Just now, Robert said:

...I disagree with the teachings of the Biblical Research Institute (BRI) of the GC, as well as some of the Independent Ministries.  

https://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/theology-salvation/comments-adamin-christ-motifs

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

https://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/theology-salvation/comments-adamin-christ-motifs

I just sent an email to BRI.

Here it is:

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Ángel Manuel Rodríguez states the following:

 "Not everybody was at the same time in Christ at the cross, as that theory teaches. Paul wrote, ‘Greet Andronicus and Junias . . . they were in Christ before I was’ (Rom 16:7). In order to be in Christ we have to make a personal decision."

Here, in Romans 16:7, Paul is implying that these two men accepted the gospel before he did. Keep in mind that in order to do a proper exegesis the objective and subjective truth as it is "in Christ” must be considered.

Now, apparently you believe that the fallen race was not “in Christ” when He died as the “last Adam” (i.e., the second Adam).  Well, that presents a problem.

According to Hebrews 9:24-26/10:10 the cross of Christ is a finished work.  In fact the NC Sabbath points to this fact (see Hebrews 4:9, 10).  Christ died “once for all” and therefore “when One died, all died” (2 Corinthians 5:14). Christ doesn’t die again and again every time an unbeliever accepts Him. If He does then the Catholic Mass is orthodox.

Clearly God’s law demands the death of the sinner. (See Ezekiel 18:20 and Galatians 3:10).  Christ’s death, instead of our death (i.e., vicarious substitution), does not answer the justice of God’s law.  Nay, it mocks it.  That’s because no law, especially God’s law, allows the death of the just in place of the unjust.  How then did God legally fulfill His law “in Christ”?

In order to legally fulfill the law God the Father, at the incarnation, united our corporate, fallen life to the Divinity of Christ.  In so doing Christ was made “the Son of Man”. Therefore when the Son of Man  died our corporate humanity died also.  If not, then you will have to reject Romans 6:6/7:4

Romans 6:6 “Our old self was crucified with Him, so that our sinful body might be done way with” (NAB)

Romans 7:4 “You also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ” (NAB)

From the above I can conclude two things:

1] When Christ as the Son of Man died, my fallen, humanity died also.

2] The justice of the law has been maintained.

Because of this truth Christ, our Great High Priest, can represent the believer perfect “in Himself” because He has legally answered the justice of His own law by His doing and dying.

Therefore I must reject your view that the “in Christ motif” is heretical.  In fact I believe it’s the other way around.

Sincerely,

Robert **********

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joeb]

8 hours ago, Robert said:

I have never tried so I don't know if your claim is valid or not.  Neither does it matter to me since Paul explains it very well.  

What I meant by that is that the entire plan of salvation is found in the laws given to Israel by Christ.  Thus, if you cannot find "in Christ" in the laws of Israel it is not a part of the plan of salvation.  Thus, until you can show "in Christ" from the laws of Israel, and get rid of the contradictions inherit in it to Biblical truth it is "unproveable".  It is in fact a very subtle attack on God's character in that it says God is unjust.  How? Even human ideas of justice preclude holding a son guilty of the sins of his ancestors, yet this tenet is central to your theology. 

God made it very clear in Ezekiel that He does NOT hold a person responsible for any sins but his own.  Any idea at variance with that is unbiblical and the devil's deception.

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Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
  2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge?
  3 As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
  4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
  5 ¶But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,*n1
  6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour’s wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
  7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
  8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
  9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
  10 ¶If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like toany one of these things,*n2*n3
  11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour’s wife,
  12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination,
  13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.*n4
  14 ¶Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father’s sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
  15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour’s wife,
  16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,*n5
  17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
  18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
  19 ¶Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
  20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
  21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
  22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
  23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
  24 ¶But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
  25 ¶Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
  26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
  27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
  28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
  29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
  30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.*n6
  31 ¶Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
  32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.*n7 

Robert, you are making the same accusation against God the Israelites did in verse 29 which accusation the rest of the chapter completely refutes.

[Robert]

5 hours ago, joeb said:

....if you cannot find "in Christ" in the laws of Israel it is not a part of the plan of salvation. 

Paul was clearly picked to present the gospel in its clarity.  I find nothing in Paul's writing that states what you have said above.

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Robert, you are making the same accusation against God the Israelites did in verse 29 which accusation the rest of the chapter completely refutes.

You've lost me....I have no idea what your writing about....

[Robert]

5 hours ago, joeb said:

God made it very clear in Ezekiel that He does NOT hold a person responsible for any sins but his own.  Any idea at variance with that is unbiblical and the devil's deception.

But Jesus had no sin. How then could He take the curse of the law?

[Robert]

12 hours ago, Robert said:

But Jesus had no sin. How then could He take the curse of the law?

If God condemns the innocent, Christ, then His law is unjust!  Think it out.

But, if you read Paul then the "in Christ" motif makes perfect sense. 

[joeb]

16 hours ago, Robert said:

But Jesus had no sin. How then could He take the curse of the law?

That is the entire point of the law of inheritance, i.e. the concept of ga'al(kinsman-redeemer).  It is the law that says it is legal for a substitute to pay a debt for another person, which is what we see in the plan of salvation. We suffer under the curse of the law for we have broken it.  Christ, who kept the law perfectly, is legally able to made the curse for us so  that he can pay off the debt we owe due to breaking the law.  He ransoms us out of our condition.

The Bible is full of this imagery.  Every time the words redemption, redeemer, redeem, redeemed are used the original Hebrew or Greek, depending on which Testament it is found, they are tied to the concept of ga'al.  Since the Greek doesn't have the word ga'al the NT writers always used words meaning ransom/ed, purchase/d, or buy/bought.  The NT writers do this because the only scriptures they knew were the OT writers.  Those OT writers always tied those words to the meaning kinsman-redeemer, or ransom, the very idea found in the law of inheritance.  The linkage from this law to the plan of salvation is very solid.  

In Luke 24:21, the story of the disciple's walk to Emmaus after the crucifixtion, the disciples say, "But we trusted that it had been he who should have redeemed Israel:...:  The Greek word translated as redeemed is lutroo (#3084 in Strong's) which means "to ransom".    So, a more literal translation of what the disciples said is "But we trusted that it had been he who should have ransomed Israel:".  Where did they get that understanding?  From the OT, the only scriptures they had to study. 

In the text you quoted from Galations we find that the English word redeemed comes from the Greek word exagorago (#1805 from Strong's) which means "to buy up, i.e. ransom".  Funny how the very text you thought would stump me is evidence for what I've been saying here.   The text could be written: Christ has bought us, or in other words, ransomed us, from the curse of the law.  

The curse of the law is simple.  It is that the law of God condemns all who break it to death.   Thus the curse of the law is death, the second death.  And since Jesus has been made that curse for us, i.e. He died for us, He has ransomed us from it.    See how simple and easily understood this is when we allow the Bible to explain it? 

[Samie]

1 hour ago, joeb said:

The curse of the law is simple.  It is that the law of God condemns all who break it to death.   Thus the curse of the law is death, the second death.  And since Jesus has been made that curse for us, i.e. He died for us, He has ransomed us from it.    See how simple and easily understood this is when we allow the Bible to explain it? 

Did Jesus die the second death? I don't think so; and I guess Scriptures, too, because it is the lake of fire which is the 2nd death (Rev 20:14).  I believe there's something at Yom Kippur which typified what type of death Jesus died:

^KJV Leviticus 16:21-22   ²¹ And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness. ²² And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

I think the live goat represents the New Man created on the cross (see Eph 2:11-19): Christ, the Head; humanity, the Body. He is the High Priest Who confessed upon Himself all our sins. He was the fit Man Who led the live goat to the uninhabited land. The land uninhabited is death. He led Himself to death by voluntarily laying down His life. The death He died was unique. It was that death that brought us life. He alone died that type of death. It was uninhabited when He went there and stayed there for 3 days and 3 nights. It again became uninhabited when He resurrected. It will remain uninhabited forever.

As at Yom Kippur, people were cleansed from all sins (Lev 16:30), so we all were cleansed from sin when Christ our sin-bearer died (1 Pet 2:24; Rev 1:5).  By His stripes we were healed (Isa 53:5; 1 Pet 2:24). Christ's death brought us life. The second death annihilates all whose names are not found written in the book of life.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, joeb said:

See how simple and easily understood this is when we allow the Bible to explain it? 

Allowing Scriptures to explain whether Jesus died the 2nd death or not, seem to point to the direction that He didn't die the 2nd death.  Scriptures EXPLICITLY say that the lake of fire is the 2nd death and that all whose names are not found written in the book of life will be cast into it (Rev 20:14, 15).  I don't think Jesus died the death in the lake of fire.  We know He died on the cross, not in the lake of fire.  And if His death ransomed us from the curse of the law which joeb said is the lake of fire, then no one need be cast into the lake of fire. Why pay again that which had been paid?

[Robert]

3 hours ago, joeb said:

That is the entire point of the law of inheritance, i.e. the concept of ga'al(kinsman-redeemer). 

This is utter nonsense.  There's nothing in the moral law that states anything like this. Keep in mind it is the law of Ten Commandments that demands the sinners death.

Rom 7:10 ...and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me....

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The curse of the law is simple.  It is that the law of God condemns all who break it to death.   Thus the curse of the law is death, the second death.  And since Jesus has been made that curse for us, i.e. He died for us, He has ransomed us from it.    See how simple and easily understood this is when we allow the Bible to explain it? 

No, you just don't get it.  The law condemns sinners...Jesus wasn't a sinner therefore the law cannot legally condemn Him and in turn set you free.  You must die.  

As I stated, the in Christ motif explains this in detail.

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Did Jesus die the second death? I don't think so; and I guess Scriptures, too, because it is the lake of fire which is the 2nd death (Rev 20:14). 

Yes, Jesus (our corporate head) did die the 2nd death.  The 2nd death is God abandonment with no hope of a resurrection.  In Christ's case when God abandoned Him this allowed the Jews and Romans do as they pleased.  Before that no one could touch Him because "His time had not yet come".

The wicked, after the 2nd resurrection, are abandoned by God.  The result?  The lake of fire. When the creator fully abandons this world it will literally come apart.

 

[Samie]

40 minutes ago, Robert said:

Yes, Jesus (our corporate head) did die the 2nd death.

You believe, as I do, that All died when Christ died (2 Cor 5:14,15).  Then, did All also die the second death with Him? I don't think so, do you?

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

You believe, as I do, that All died when Christ died (2 Cor 5:14,15).  Then, did All also die the second death with Him? I don't think so, do you?

Absolutely. Our old life from Adam died eternally "in Christ".  In the resurrection Christ was raised up with a glorified life free from all vestiges of sin. 

[Samie]

Normally, the 2nd comes AFTER the 1st. To teach that all died the 2nd death with Christ is to teach that the 2nd comes BEFORE the first. Seems absurd.

9 hours ago, Robert said:

Yes, Jesus (our corporate head) did die the 2nd death.  The 2nd death is God abandonment with no hope of a resurrection.

Since the Father gave His Son to save us, then, teaching that Jesus died the 2nd death which is God's abandonement of sinners is to teach that God saved us by abandoning us first. Seems absurd likewise.

[Samie]

Back to Scriptures: The lake of fire is the second death. Rev 20:14. Jesus died on the cross. Not in the lake of fire. Therefore Jesus did not die the 2nd death.

[Samie]

24 minutes ago, jackson said:

Christ could not have done this work had He not been personally spotless. Only One who was Himself perfection could be at once the sin bearer and the sin pardoner. He stands before the congregation of His redeemed as their sin-burdened, sin-stained surety, but it is their sins He is bearing. .....-Manuscript 165, 1899.  {7ABC 461.4}

How true, indeed. Christ is THE sin-bearer. NOT Satan. The teaching that the live goat released at Yom Kippur represents Satan goes against the above EGW quote and Scriptures.

^NKJ Leviticus 16:21-22   ²¹ "Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man.  ²² "The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

^NKJ 1 Peter 2:24 [Christ] Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness -- by whose stripes you were healed.

[joeb]

22 hours ago, Samie said:

Allowing Scriptures to explain whether Jesus died the 2nd death or not, seem to point to the direction that He didn't die the 2nd death.  Scriptures EXPLICITLY say that the lake of fire is the 2nd death and that all whose names are not found written in the book of life will be cast into it (Rev 20:14, 15).  I don't think Jesus died the death in the lake of fire.  We know He died on the cross, not in the lake of fire.  And if His death ransomed us from the curse of the law which joeb said is the lake of fire, then no one need be cast into the lake of fire. Why pay again that which had been paid?

Samie,

The only people cast into the lake of fire, who experience the second death, are those who have rejected the very idea of having Jesus pay their debt.  They choose not accept the ransom paid by Christ which would have kept them out of the lake of fire if they had accepted it.  Those who allow Christ to ransom them, to pay their debt to the law, do not die the second death because Christ paid the debt they owed the law when the sinned.  This leads us to one conclusion, and one conclusion only.  The debt Christ paid for us was our debt of death, eternal death.  Otherwise, we would die that death also for we owe the law of God that debt.  Only Christ substituting His death for ours, and His life for our imperfect life, keeps us from the ultimate penalty. 

I don't understand why you have to do mental gymnastics when the truth is so simple, so plain.

[joeb]

When God ransomed the Israelites out of Egypt what did He buy them out of?  Bondage.(Exodus 6:6)  When Paul spoke of his life in relation to sin how did he characterize it?  As being sold under sin.  He described his experience as being unable to actually do that which he wished to do.  So, what did Jesus ransom, i.e. buy, us out of?  Bondage to sin.  So what exchange have we received from Jesus?  Liberty for bondage.  (IICorinthians 3:17,18)  The liberty to become the sons of God.(John 1:12)  The liberty to be changed into the image of God, to have His character.  The liberty to no longer be the slaves of sin.  

Psalms 74: 2 Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.

Notice that purchased and redeemed are one and the same in David's mind.  Also see below that God purchased Canaan.

Psalms 78: 54 And he brought them to the border of his sanctuary, even to this mountain, which his right hand had purchased.

Are there other Bible writers that say God has purchased His people?  Yes.  Moses in Exodus 15:16.  Paul says so in Acts 20:28, Ephesians 1:14, I Corinthians 6:20 and 7:23.  In addition Peter says the same in II Peter 2:1.  John expresses the same idea in 3 places in Revelation.  Every time you read the word redeemed in Revelation the underlying Greek word means purchase. 

Are there other references other than Paul's to being sold into sin?  Yes.

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I Kings 21: 20 And Ahab said to Elijah, Hast thou found me, O mine enemy? And he answered, I have found thee: because thou hast sold thyself to work evil in the sight of the LORD.

I Kings 21: 25 ¶But there was none like unto Ahab, which did sell himself to work wickedness in the sight of the LORD, whom Jezebel his wife stirred up.

II Kings 17: 16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.
  17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Isaiah 50: 1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Isaiah 52: 3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

So, we have sold ourselves into bondage to the devil when we choose to sin.  But, what we have sold, Jesus buys back.  He purchases us, ransoms us, out of our misery and certain death. 

What did Jesus say along these lines?

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Mark 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

The phrase "in exchange for" is translated from the following:  465 antallagma an-tal'-ag-mah from a compound of 473 and 236; an equivalent or ransom:--in exchange. see GREEK for 473 see GREEK for 236T

So, Jesus asked the Jews what a man could use to ransom back his soul. 

The Bible ties all of this so closely together there can be no doubt as to what the truth is.  And the truth is that the concept of ga'al is the legal foundation for substitutionary atonement.  I have so much scriptural evidence for this that it would take you many many hours to read it all.  It took me hundreds of hours of study to find it all.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, joeb said:

The only people cast into the lake of fire, who experience the second death, are those who have rejected the very idea of having Jesus pay their debt.  They choose not accept the ransom paid by Christ which would have kept them out of the lake of fire if they had accepted it. 

Christ paid the debt of ALL the world, whether one knows about it or not; or whether one accepts it or not. And the payment was Christ's death which you said is the 2nd death. It is then paying again that which had been paid if one dies the second death, isn't it? Quite that simple; no mental gymnastics required, is there?.