"In Christ" - the gospel as taught by Paul

[Robert]

15 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The "old man" of sin dies, and a "new man" is raised from death to life - BECAUSE of the man's belief in the ability of Christ, to give him life. 

If the "old man" is actually dead in you then why are you falling short of God's agape revealed in Christ Jesus?  Compare to Romans 3:23

[Robert]

15 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

2 Corinthians 5:17 "So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! (NRS)

IF every human being (who ever existed, or would exist) was rendered "in Christ" when He died on the cross.....

 

Tell me, has everything become new in your "born again" experience?

Are you immortal?

Do you no longer have a sinful nature?

Do you no longer sin?

If you answered "yes" to all the above then my theology is in error and you are correct, but if none of those things have changed in you then you need to go back to your Bible and find out where you err.

[Robert]

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Robert,

I've been told that you've posted here for some 15 years.  I'm NOT posting because I believe that I can change your understanding of the Gospel.  You quote the same verses that I read.  I just understand them differently.  What your posting has done, is to push me to read those verses again, and again - with prayer - digging deeper for the meaning.  In the process, I have been strengthened in my understanding.  So - I thank you for your posting. 

The law demands your death because you are a sinner!  According to Romans 6:6/7:4 your old life died with Christ.  Christ died 2000 years ago.  If you insist that you were put into Christ when you accepted him (or by baptism) then Christ had to die again.  But the Bible clearly presents Christ dying once, for all.  Thus when "One died, all died". If not then you are essentially in agreement with the Papal Mass that has Christ offered again and again and again.  

[Robert]

Maybe this will help 8thdaypriest?

http://www.jacksequeira.org/issues02.htm

[Robert]

Another one:

http://www.jacksequeira.org/2phases.htm

[Samie]

On 06/02/2016 at 4:25 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

Romans 8:10 "However, if the Messiah is in you, then, on the one hand, the body is dead because of sin; but, on the other hand, the Spirit is giving life because God considers you righteous. (CJB)

There's an IF in this verse.  "IF Christ is in you" . . .  then God regards you as righteous.

If Christ is "in you" - then you are spiritually "alive".   The "spirit of Christ" is giving you life. 

Before Christ can ENTER the heart, the person must open "the door".  And yes - that's an ACTION - at least of the mind.  It is a RESPONSE to Christ.  It's not done in a vacuum.  It's done because of Christ. 

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

The person has the power, the ability - to "open the door" - to believe.  God has given that ability to us.  He protects us from the power of Satan (who would take over our minds, thus preventing us).  But even the demoniac cried out to Jesus.  The wrong words came out his mouth, but Jesus "heard" his heart cry. 

We are "born of the spirit" WHEN the spirit of Christ comes "in" to our heart/mind.  (John 3:6&8).  Jesus said, "You MUST be born again."   This wording does NOT support the teaching that every human being was "born again" or was "in Christ" from the moment Christ died on the cross, OR from eternity when His death was promised.

It appears, based on the above, that Rachel offers the following order of events to show how a person from being spiritually dead (NOT in Christ) becomes spiritually alive (in Christ):

1. hears Christ's voice; 2. responds and opens his heart's door, and then 3. Christ comes in.

It is in #3 where Rachel seems to believe that the person becomes spiritually alive as shown by her saying that "If Christ is "in you" - then you are spiritually "alive".   The "spirit of Christ" is giving you life."

It is highly doubtful that the person is still spiritually dead in #1 & #2 because the person CAN already spiritually hear and do the spiritual act of opening his heart's door. If it were true that the person is still spiritually dead in #1 & #2 then while NOT in Christ, the person was able to do SOMETHING, making Christ's statement, that when separate from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5), false.

[Samie]

On 06/02/2016 at 4:04 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

A person who is baptized "into" Christ, is then "in" Christ. 

First, people decided to be baptized, then they are baptized, and then Rachel believes it is then that people are in Christ and becomes spiritually alive. It follows that when people decided to be baptized they were still spiritually dead and NOT in Christ. If it were true that they were yet NOT in Christ when people decided to be baptized which no doubt is a spiritual act, then Christ's statement that people can do NOTHING while not in Him is false.

[Samie]

21 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Baptism is the OUTWARD EXPRESSION of belief in what Christ did.  This ceremony is REQUIRED of all those capable of it.  The disciples taught baptism, as Jesus commandment.

Those who are baptized in faith, are "buried with Him".

Romans 6:4 "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death." 

The "old man" of sin dies, and a "new man" is raised from death to life - BECAUSE of the man's belief in the ability of Christ, to give him life. 

This change (in the man) does not happen without the man's knowledge of Christ, and the man's belief in Christ.  Christ did not "save" this man, without his knowledge or consent. 

My previous post tackled the issue that when people decided to be baptized, they already were spiritually alive, otherwise, Christ's statement in John 15:5 would be false.

 

21 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Peter told the jailer, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be (future tense) saved"  (Acts 16:31).

As I had time and again posted in this forum, there are three tenses of salvation - past, present, future.  We were saved, are being saved, but only overcomers will finally be saved.

 

21 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

2 Corinthians 5:17 "So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! (NRS)

IF every human being (who ever existed, or would exist) was rendered "in Christ" when He died on the cross, then for most people physically born since Christ died, there was nothing "old" to pass away.  In Robert's scenario (and Samie's) those people born since Christ died, were all born "in Christ" and therefore "new".  There was no "old" in their lives, prior to their knowledge of Christ, or belief in Him as Savior. 

Looking at ISIS terrorists, or drug lords, or most criminals in prisons - these people have NOT "become new".  They have NOT been "born again".  The "old" has NOT "passed away".  It is still very much present, in their thinking and in their behavior.   The same could be said of those who died as criminals, pagans, or terrorists.  The "old" may have died when they physically died, but nothing became "new". 

It is important to consider that in his letters, Paul was addressing people who already were physically alive BEFORE Christ died. It is I guess in this context that "everything old" before Christ died "has passed away" after He died.  For us all who were born since Christ died and so were born "in Christ" have only our non-overcoming lifestyle that can be considered "old" because we live in the "old" style instead of in the "new" lifestyle of the Head. We need to overcome this "old" lifestyle or get blotted out from the book of life.

As to ISIS terrorists, etc., not yet "born again", Scriptures say:

^NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

People could not enter the kingdom of God unless born again. So God, in His mercy, caused us to be born again. He made us spiritually alive TOGETHER with Christ when He resurrected:

^NKJ Ephesians 2:4-5   ⁴ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,  ⁵ even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ

Although God caused ALL to be made spiritually alive and born again, yet only overcomers will finally make it to the kingdom of God because only overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5). And ISIS terrorists, etc., instead of overcoming, choose to be overcome by evil.

 

[Samie]

22 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

There is no good reason to "go therefore and teach" or "make disciples" if all humanity was "saved" the moment Christ died. 

Just leave them be.  Why risk their salvation?

In fact - teaching them only makes them more responsible.  They may reject the teaching - and be "lost", when they WERE "saved" before they HEARD the Gospel.  

A child remains a member of a human family whether taught and grew up with good manners or not.  Our heavenly Father wants the best for His children and the best lifestyle is that of His Son for it is the Father's own lifestyle. And He wants us, His adopted children in Christ to be like His only begotten Son. Hence, the great commission. And God knows who among His adopted children have grown up into such a spiritual level of maturity, just like that of the Ethiopian eunuch, and then He would send one of His "Philips" to them so they would come to learn of His Son. All who overcome the evil of rejecting Christ will remain among the list of His adopted children. Many have died not knowing Christ, perhaps because they have not grown up yet to the eunuch's stage, and so no Philip was sent to them. Yet they will be judged according to their works, that is, whether they have overcome evil or not. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

Quote

We've all heard about crazy mothers killing their "innocent children" so they can go to Heaven.    If a mother believed like Robert, it wouldn't be so "crazy".  It would guarantee their salvation.

The "craziness" of mothers killing their "innocent children" is nothing different from the craziness of mothers killing their newly baptized kids. We have no plans of killing the newly baptized to guarantee their salvation, have we?

[LifeHiscost]

On 2/2/2016 at 1:08 AM, Robert said:

 

Now, examine Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”

 

The ten commandment law kept:  God held Sovereign as Creator.

                                                    : no powerless false god invoked needlessly or with futility.

                                                    : rewards for every effort to please the only supreme Being there  is, Who shares His love with those who desire His companionship and seek after His friendship.

                                                     : no invoking needlessly unfulfilling, harmful activity 

                                                     : A full 24 hours every seven days to rest in appropriate activity bringing health and refreshment to soul and body on His day when it is remembered.

                                                     : following the first commandment with promise, assuring parents needed support as their strength is abated.

                                                     : Everyone is safer re: life and limb when refusing to infringe on all others' lives and are promised equal respect when following the same deportment.

                                                      : Every person's mate is safe from infringement on the family when all refuse to take advantage of the marital institution.

                                                       : Everyone's individual property or goods of any sort are safe in personal possession re: how the faithful commandment keeper treats it.

                                                       : Being content with what I have insures much less stress, the ease which comes in not not coveting what I shouldn't.

     I should be so blessed with keeping such a Law. It is the breaking of those commands that is the curse, plainly revealed, not the keeping of those Laws.

        God is Love!~Jesus saves!                                             

[Samie]

5 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

     I should be so blessed with keeping such a Law. It is the breaking of those commands that is the curse, plainly revealed, not the keeping of those Laws.

LHC,

That's called overcoming evil with good.

[8thdaypriest]

On 2/7/2016 at 2:23 AM, Samie said:

Jackson;

From your statement above, it would follow that people are born NOT “in Christ”. And to be NOT “in Christ” is to be separate from Christ, to be NOT part of His body, to be spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). Now, in the last part of your statement, you said that to be able to receive the provision made at the cross, one has to desire them and act upon that desire.

So, HOW can one who is still separate from Christ and is yet spiritually dead being NOT “in Christ”, able to desire and act upon that desire, when Christ Himself said that separate from Him one can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? You seem to be saying that while separate from Christ, one can do things: they can desire and then act upon that desire. Seems like your position is not in accord with what Christ Himself said.

Are you able to explain this? If so, please elucidate.

Jesus said,  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (Joh 6:44 NKJ). 

So, I person does NOT come to Jesus in a vacuum, simply by his own power of mind.  There is a divine influence - a drawing, convicting power, which acts upon the mind of the individual.  This is the "knocking". 

The person is able to RESIST this drawing power.  If he does not resist, he will be drawn to Christ.  He will understand who Christ was/is - He will come to BELIEVE.  And he will surrender to Christ as Lord. 

While Jesus lived on the earth, as a man - He had no divine power of His own to draw anyone, or work miracles.  He said Himself that, "the Father who dwells in Me, does the works" (Jn 14:10).

AFTER Jesus ascended and was glorified, THEN Jesus poured out the Spirit of His own presence, which enabled the works of the disciples.  Jesus would then do the drawing (knocking), which the Father had done while Jesus was on earth, living as a man. 

Therefore people RESPOND to (or resist) a supernatural "knocking" (drawing).  Those who respond are NOT doing so "without" Jesus. 

Jesus will not "save" for His kingdom, those who RESIST Him, refusing to BELIEVE and SUBMIT to Him as Lord. 

Those who have RESISTED until they are numb to the Spirit, will be eternally lost. 

Those who have not yet responded - who have not yet opened the door - are NOT "saved".  They are NOT YET "in Christ".  

Christ is still "knocking" and "drawing" because time has not yet run out for this "age". 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 2/7/2016 at 9:21 AM, Robert said:

"If"? 

Paul tells us in 2 Cor 5:14 that when "One died, all died".  Hence in order for our corporate humanity to have died in Christ then it must have been united to Christ at the incarnation.  

To oppose this truth is to teach a hybrid of the Immaculate Conception, which is a heresy. 

Robert,

Let's just be clear.  You are saying that I am cursed.  

[LifeHiscost]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Robert,

Let's just be clear.  You are saying that I am cursed.  

That's what the evil one is trying to prove.

…9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.…...Revelation 12

.14But thank God! He has made us his captives and continues to lead us along in Christ’s triumphal procession. Now he uses us to spread the knowledge of Christ everywhere, like a sweet perfume. 15Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing. 16To those who are perishing, we are a dreadful smell of death and doom. But to those who are being saved, we are a life-giving perfume. And who is adequate for such a task as this?

17You see, we are not like the many hucksters^a who preach for personal profit. We preach the word of God with sincerity and with Christ’s authority, knowing that God is watching us.....2 Cor 2

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

[joeb]

On 2/7/2016 at 7:35 AM, Robert said:

The law demands your death because you are a sinner!  According to Romans 6:6/7:4 your old life died with Christ.  Christ died 2000 years ago.  If you insist that you were put into Christ when you accepted him (or by baptism) then Christ had to die again.  But the Bible clearly presents Christ dying once, for all.  Thus when "One died, all died". If not then you are essentially in agreement with the Papal Mass that has Christ offered again and again and again.  

This fallacy put forth by Robert is completely shredded by the God-given law of inheritance.   He will never admit it, but it is so.  Christ died one time as a ransom for every individual on earth.  His life, death, and resurrection are available to each of us because He is our closest kinsman who is able to pay our debt in all respects.  The concept of ga'al shows that is both legal and ethical for the closest relative capable of paying a debt the debtor himself/herself cannot pay.  

God knew this deception was coming.  He knew it from the foundations of the universe and made provision to refute it through establishing this law in His government and then giving this law to humanity through Moses and the Israelites.  Study the concept of ga'al carefully.  You will be surprised at how much more meaning, especially in our day and age in which deceit is so rampant, you will find in the plan of salvation.   What do I mean by that?  We live in a world suffering at the hands of terrorists who use kidnapping/ransom as a fundraising tool.  For me it brings into sharp relief the work of Jesus for He intervened between us the devil who holds this entire world captive through his sophistry. 

 

[joeb]

On 2/7/2016 at 2:09 PM, Samie said:

My previous post tackled the issue that when people decided to be baptized, they already were spiritually alive, otherwise, Christ's statement in John 15:5 would be false.

 

As I had time and again posted in this forum, there are three tenses of salvation - past, present, future.  We were saved, are being saved, but only overcomers will finally be saved.

 

It is important to consider that in his letters, Paul was addressing people who already were physically alive BEFORE Christ died. It is I guess in this context that "everything old" before Christ died "has passed away" after He died.  For us all who were born since Christ died and so were born "in Christ" have only our non-overcoming lifestyle that can be considered "old" because we live in the "old" style instead of in the "new" lifestyle of the Head. We need to overcome this "old" lifestyle or get blotted out from the book of life.

As to ISIS terrorists, etc., not yet "born again", Scriptures say:

^NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

People could not enter the kingdom of God unless born again. So God, in His mercy, caused us to be born again. He made us spiritually alive TOGETHER with Christ when He resurrected:

 

^NKJ Ephesians 2:4-5   ⁴ But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,  ⁵ even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ

Although God caused ALL to be made spiritually alive and born again, yet only overcomers will finally make it to the kingdom of God because only overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5). And ISIS terrorists, etc., instead of overcoming, choose to be overcome by evil.

 

In the sentence I bolded in Samie's post we see his addiction to salvation by works.  To him, as illuminated by his own words, sin is "lifestyle" that can be changed by the individual himself.  He is forced into this position because of his rejection of the Biblical concept of justification by faith and his substitution of the "everyone is born justified" fallacy.

[8thdaypriest]

Robert,

I read carefully through the chapter with your favorite verse.  2 Corinthians 5:14 "For the Messiah's love has hold of us, because we are convinced that one man died on behalf of all mankind (which implies that all mankind was already dead), 15 and that he died on behalf of all in order that those who live should not live any longer for themselves but for the one who on their behalf died and was raised. 16 So from now on, we do not look at anyone from a worldly viewpoint. Even if we once regarded the Messiah from a worldly viewpoint, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is united with the Messiah, he is a new creation - the old has passed; look, what has come is fresh and new! 18 And it is all from God, who through the Messiah has reconciled us to himself and has given us the work of that reconciliation, 19 which is that God in the Messiah was reconciling mankind to himself, not counting their sins against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore we are ambassadors of the Messiah; in effect, God is making his appeal through us. What we do is appeal on behalf of the Messiah, 'Be reconciled to God!'" (2Co 5:14-20 CJB)

All mankind WAS DEAD - in trespasses and sins.  Mankind was ALREADY DEAD, when Christ died.  Mankind didn't DIE - again. 

The point is NOT that mankind DIED.  They were already DEAD.  The point is that Christ could make them alive again. 

Anyone "in Christ" (united with Messiah) is a "new creation" and has come to life - because life from Jesus is poured IN to them.  He is to "walk in newness of life".  He is not to fulfill the "lusts of the (old dead) flesh". 

The people who have been "reconciled" to God, are those who have believed in Jesus as Savior and Lord.  Now they were to go and preach - to "appeal" on behalf of Christ, "Be reconciled to God!"  If EVERYONE had been reconciled 9past tense) the moment Jesus died, then there would be no need to PLEAD with anyone.  It would be an accomplished fact. 

To quote one small portion of this passage, is to miss the point. 

[Samie]

53 minutes ago, joeb said:

In the sentence I bolded in Samie's post we see his addiction to salvation by works.  To him, as illuminated by his own words, sin is "lifestyle" that can be changed by the individual himself.  He is forced into this position because of his rejection of the Biblical concept of justification by faith and his substitution of the "everyone is born justified" fallacy.

Thanks joeb. I have shown Scriptures that being "in Christ" is God's work FOR man. This is not salvation by works, I guess. You teach that for people to be "in Christ" they have to first believe. That smells salvation by works.

[Samie]

This is my statement bolded by joeb: "We need to overcome this "old" lifestyle or get blotted out from the book of life." 

People are already "in Christ". And being "in Christ", people are already heaven-bound. We don't overcome evil with good to be heaven-bound, we are already bound for heaven being "in Christ".  It was Christ Who assured us that overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life. And only those whose names are found in it will be allowed in the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27).  There's nothing about salvation by works in what I teach.

[Samie]

15 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The people who have been "reconciled" to God, are those who have believed in Jesus as Savior and Lord. 

Before they were reconciled to God, people are NOT "in Christ", and therefore spiritually dead. So how can the spiritually dead do the spiritual act of believing?

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Before they were reconciled to God, people are NOT "in Christ", and therefore spiritually dead. So how can the spiritually dead do the spiritual act of believing?

I just told you.  The spirit DRAWS them - like magnet.  This is the "knocking".  If they do not RESIST, they will come to BELIEVE, and will surrender, and will be "reconciled".  And that's when they are counted as "in Christ".   Read my last post - again. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 2/8/2016 at 10:38 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus said,  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (Joh 6:44 NKJ). 

So, I person does NOT come to Jesus in a vacuum, simply by his own power of mind.  There is a divine influence - a drawing, convicting power, which acts upon the mind of the individual.  This is the "knocking". 

The person is able to RESIST this drawing power.  If he does not resist, he will be drawn to Christ.  He will understand who Christ was/is - He will come to BELIEVE.  And he will surrender to Christ as Lord. 

While Jesus lived on the earth, as a man - He had no divine power of His own to draw anyone, or work miracles.  He said Himself that, "the Father who dwells in Me, does the works" (Jn 14:10).

AFTER Jesus ascended and was glorified, THEN Jesus poured out the Spirit of His own presence, which enabled the works of the disciples.  Jesus would then do the drawing (knocking), which the Father had done while Jesus was on earth, living as a man. 

Therefore people RESPOND to (or resist) a supernatural "knocking" (drawing).  Those who respond are NOT doing so "without" Jesus. 

Jesus will not "save" for His kingdom, those who RESIST Him, refusing to BELIEVE and SUBMIT to Him as Lord. 

Those who have RESISTED until they are numb to the Spirit, will be eternally lost. 

Those who have not yet responded - who have not yet opened the door - are NOT "saved".  They are NOT YET "in Christ".  

Christ is still "knocking" and "drawing" because time has not yet run out for this "age".

There - I posted it again for you. 

We humans cannot DO anything - any works - FOR God, in order to merit salvation.  When we believe, it is because God has DRAWN us to Himself, by His spirit.  That is NOT something we did - by ourselves.  We were DRAWN, (convicted in mind) and the end result is that we believed.  After we BELIEVE, then we do "good works" (also by the enabling of His Spirit) to show our gratitude, our love for God, and our submission to Him as LORD.
 

[8thdaypriest]

There is NO NEED for every human being to have been "justified" or "saved" or "written in the Book of Life" - either before the creation, or at the moment Christ died.  Every one will have the opportunity to RESPOND to the drawing - either during this "age", or during the 8th millennium.  Most will resist, and will be "lost". 

If God were to transport little children or ignorant pagans into His eternal Kingdom, without their understanding or consent - THAT is mind control.  THAT would be manipulation.  It would by-pass their RIGHT to RESIST - their RIGHT to REFUSE.  It would overpower their minds.  My God is NOT a manipulator.   That is why I believe the "rest of the dead" will be all of those who died in ignorance.  They must be resurrected to HEAR, to be DRAWN, and to either respond or resist. 

[Samie]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I just told you.  The spirit DRAWS them - like magnet.  This is the "knocking".  If they do not RESIST, they will come to BELIEVE, and will surrender, and will be "reconciled".  And that's when they are counted as "in Christ".   Read my last post - again. 

NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he (a)bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Again, to be apart from Christ is to be NOT "in Christ", to be not part of His Body, and hence spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). And when one is spiritually dead, he cannot do any spiritual act; he cannot believe because believing is a spiritual act.

Believing is exercising faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) and only those "in Christ" can bear fruit. Those NOT "in Christ" cannot bear fruit, and therefore have no faith to exercise.

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, Samie said:

NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he (a)bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Again, to be apart from Christ is to be NOT "in Christ", to be not part of His Body, and hence spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). And when one is spiritually dead, he cannot do any spiritual act; he cannot believe because believing is a spiritual act.

Believing is exercising faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) and only those "in Christ" can bear fruit. Those NOT "in Christ" cannot bear fruit, and therefore have no faith to exercise.

How many times do I have to repeat it.  No one BELIEVES without Christ.  His spirit DRAWS.  It PULLS the person towards BELIEF and surrender.  The person cannot BELIEVE or have faith, without this HELP - this LIFE - this Spirit of Christ.  No one BELIEVES apart from (without) Christ.  But BEFORE the person surrenders to the pulling, pleading Spirit - he is NOT "justified" or "in Christ". 

The POINT is that a person can RESIST the pulling, knocking, convicting, helping Spirit of Christ.  God will not overpower a person's mind. 

Even after the person has come to BELIEVE, at any point along the relationship journey of faith - a person may be tested (tempted).  They may again resist the Spirit (convicting them not to indulge in that sin or disbelief, or failure to do right).  They may resist and resist and resist - until they actually turn away from Christ.  Judas did this.  That is the danger of indulging in sin. This is the unpardonable sin. One may finally turn away from Christ, because they have resisted Christ's spirit until they are numb to Him.

I've been reading very slowly through the letters of Paul. 

Galatians 5:24  "And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

COMPARE this with

I Thess 4:3-5  "That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God: "

The Gentiles who are ignorant of God, have NOT "crucified the flesh" - therefore - they are not "Christ's". 

These ignorant Gentiles do not display the "fruits of the Spirit" therefore they are not indwelt by the Spirit of Christ. 

Romans 8:9  “Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (NKJ) 

CONSIDER

I Thess 4:12  "that you may walk properly toward those who are outside"  

Who are these OUTSIDERS?  Outside of what?  The obvious answer is, outside of the church - outside of Christ.  You're either OUTSIDE of Christ, or you are "IN CHRIST". 

I Thess 2:14  "For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to SPEAK to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost."

Persons are not "saved" in a vacuum, without knowing anything.  The verse says the Jews forbade Paul to "speak to the Gentiles" so "they may BE SAVED".  This certainly does not say these Gentiles were already "saved" and just needed to understand something that was already fact.  No.