Jealous...

July 22, 2006

I am really sorry for anyone who lives with such a dark view of what the Bible says. I dont see much joy in such a warped outlook on life. Jesus came to show a better way the way of love. No children are not born selfish and wicked. That idea is a perversion.

mel

July 22, 2006

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melvin mccarty said: No children are not born selfish and wicked. That idea is a perversion.

mel

Rev 3:17 "But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked."

Most legalists think that one becomes a sinner when one outwardly sins. This is an error, no...it's much worse for it is a heresy. We sin outwardly because inwardly we are in love with ourselves.

King David spoke of his birth. You'll find this in Ps 51:5 Here's what he said:

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Rob

July 22, 2006

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No children are not born selfish...

I am afraid that all of us are born selfish. Have you ever told a hungry baby with a used diaper on, to respond to mom or dad saying, "I'll be there in a minute?"

Of course not. The built in instinct for survival for an infant, demands attention so the needs might be met. The baby does not care if mom is eating or using the bathroom or talking on the phone.

July 22, 2006

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Have you ever told a hungry baby with a used diaper on, to respond to mom or dad saying, "I'll be there in a minute?"

Of course not. The built in instinct for survival for an infant, demands attention so the needs might be met.

What was Jesus like as a baby? The same as other babies?

Graeme

July 22, 2006

I see that Robert and I will not agree on this issue so I will just forget it. As for quoting David's forced confessing consider this. Here was a guy with a bunch of wives who decided he needed another. When he was caught redhanded as it were he tried to blame his mother for his problem. Like...I just couldn't help it because I was born that way! Really putting the blame back on God much like the couple in the garden. Maybe shouldn't make a doctrine out of that huh?

Have a good Sabbath.

mel

July 22, 2006

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Robert said:

We sin outwardly because inwardly we are in love with ourselves.

Are you suggesting Jesus settled for sinful conduct in His disciples?

[:"red"] "...Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

" [/] Matthew 19:19 KJV

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King David spoke of his birth. You'll find this in Ps 51:5 Here's what he said:

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Rob

There is no doubt in my mind that children are selfish and have a selfish nature from birth. However they are not born wicked and they are held guiltless until they reach the recognition of disobedience

[:"red"] "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." [/]

Romans 5:13 KJV

Even as adults men are not held personally responsible for that which they do not recognize, though they may suffer adverse consequences from unlawful behaviour.

[:"red"] "....the way of transgressors is hard." [/] Proverbs 13:15 KJV

[:"red"] "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." [/] Luke 23:34 KJV

July 22, 2006

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Planey said: What was Jesus like as a baby? The same as other babies?

Graeme

The humanity was the same, but Jesus never lived selfishly even as an infant. He was born spiritually alive where we are born spiritually dead.....

July 22, 2006

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melvin mccarty said:As for quoting David's forced confessing consider this. Here was a guy with a bunch of wives who decided he needed another. When he was caught redhanded as it were he tried to blame his mother for his problem.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned....

Sin enter the human race through one man, Adam. David's mother shared Adam's fallen life so that when David was conceived this fallen life was past on to him. We are sinners by performance and nature.

Here's Job: “What is man, that he could be pure, or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?"

As for blame, let's see what Paul has to say:

Rom 7:8 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me. 21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am!

July 22, 2006

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LifeHiscost said: There is no doubt in my mind that children are selfish....However they are not born wicked....

Selfishness is the root of all sin! It is the core....An infant is totally dependent upon adults for it's survival, so it won't be tempted to live independently until it becomes a teenager. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> It will, however, throw some mighty fine fits if it doesn't get its way.

When one is young its actions are viewed as cute, when it gets older the parents do not reward this behavior. Is the child still selfish? Yes, only now he/she is playing nice for a reward. Only when the child accepts Jesus is there a genuine change.

As to "wickedness" vs "selfishness"....I don't think there's a difference, but if there is it really doesn't matter because the law condemns all sin.

Rob

July 22, 2006

Should one isolate a thought from it's context and pretend to refute it? Although this is common practice on these discussion boards to my mind it is a despicable practice. But I will say again that the reactions to this little picture certainly showed more about the various posters than about the characters in the picture.

mel

July 22, 2006

Sounds to me like all three of these children are in the need of baptism.

July 22, 2006

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LifeHiscost said:Even as adults men are not held personally responsible for that which they do not recognize, though they may suffer adverse consequences from unlawful behaviour.

Rom 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law [a knowledge of sin] will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; [why?] 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

What's Paul saying? Whether you are ignorant of the law or clearly understand it, the only way to heaven is to be a "doer of the law"! So the infant, without Christ, is in one sense born lost because it stands condemned as a sinner.

The law demands a righteous life. It demands eternal death to those who are unrighteous. The law must be satisfied...it must be legally fulfilled and it has by the man, Jesus Christ.

I've read two views concerning the salvation of infants. One is that their salvation depends upon the faith of the parents. While this sounds nice what about those born of unbelieving parents. Further more this sounds more like salvation through the parents than by & through Jesus Christ alone.

There's a second view and I adhere to this one, although it's a bit controversial. This view has all mankind born saved because of Christ's doing and dying. Only when one reaches maturity is he/she responsible for his/her decision for or against Christ.

Let's go to the Bible to see this concept:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man [Adam], and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses....

Notice that "sin is not taken into account when there is no law", yet all men were dying from Adam until Moses (where the law was posted). Why? Because all humanity stands condemned because it shares Adam's fallen, sinful life. So from God's point of view "all men" sinned "in Adam" because of this shared identity.

But there's good news:

verse 18: ...just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, [:"red"]even so through one act of righteousness there resulted [past tense] justification of life to all men.[/] [NASB]

Where Adam failed Jesus has reversed his failure and has justified "all men" unto eternal life. This doesn't mean that all men will make it to heaven, but it does infer that infants are born saved because of what Jesus did as the 2nd Adam. And those babies who were aborted, well, I am very sure we will see them in heaven.

In a nutshell God never consigns anyone to eternal death solely based on that person's sin in Adam, apart from willful, persistent unbelief that can only be exercised after the age of accountability. From this it necessarily follows that all who die before they are capable of such willful, persistent, unbelief are saved.

Rob

July 22, 2006

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Robert said:

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Planey said: What was Jesus like as a baby? The same as other babies?

Graeme

The humanity was the same, but Jesus never lived selfishly even as an infant. He was born spiritually alive where we are born spiritually dead.....

I bet Jesus as an infant cried when he was hungry or wet or cold - I don't think He gave a rap whether Mary was busy doing something else. It wasn't in his frame of reference.

I dont think selfishness, per se, is evil. Sometimes it is necessary for survival.

As to jealousy....I don't think *that* is necessarily evil either. Didn't God Himself say He was a *jealous* God??

July 22, 2006

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Shane said:

Sounds to me like all three of these children are in the need of baptism.

That's why many denominations have infant baptism. The problem with this is that baptism then becomes the Savior and not Jesus Christ.

Rob

July 22, 2006

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melvin mccarty said: But I will say again that the reactions to this little picture certainly showed more about the various posters than about the characters in the picture.

mel

The Bible deflates our egos.....It is not in the business of building them up.

The problem here is that your human nature doesn't like what is being said.

Rob

July 22, 2006

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rudywoofs said:I bet Jesus as an infant cried when he was hungry or wet or cold - I don't think He gave a rap whether Mary was busy doing something else. It wasn't in his frame of reference.

Then Jesus excercised the principle of "self" instead of living a selfless life.

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I dont think selfishness, per se, is evil. Sometimes it is necessary for survival.

That's a worldly view point, not a Biblical one. Christ's life was one of selflessness even to the point of being unjustly crucified. He never fought back...never said an unkind word. He never bought a fire-arm for survival...He never took up kung-fu, etc, etc. Your life was always more important than His....The cross forever proves this fact!

And when the last generation of Christians are unjustly persecuted what will their response be? See Revelation 12:11

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Didn't God Himself say He was a *jealous* God??

Don't stop there! Here's more:

“Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

"I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

The Bible is full of seemingly endless contradictions and metaphores.....But I love it because it gets me to study these issues out. It also makes me understand that my mind, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is incapable of understanding truth.

Rob

July 22, 2006

-BC- DA

-TI- The Desire of Ages

-CN- 7

-CT- As a Child

-PR- 03

-PG- 68

As a child, Jesus manifested a peculiar loveliness of disposition. His willing hands were ever ready to serve others. He manifested a patience that nothing could disturb, and a truthfulness that would never sacrifice integrity. In principle firm as a rock, His life revealed the grace of unselfish courtesy.

“The Prince of heaven [Jesus] came to this world to live in human nature a perfect life....He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly given to the service of others.” [Misplaced ref]

July 23, 2006

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Robert said:

The Bible is full of seemingly endless contradictions Rob

Glad you added "seemingly" to your comment, Robert. And your post adds a positive note to your posted personna as you've almost admitted a specific flaw.[:"brown"] (my mind, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is incapable of understanding truth) [/].

Not that I'm glad you have one (since flawless people usually work very hard to make others look as good as possible). <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now I'm wondering what the Holy Spirit might have said to you that justifies carrying around a bible, that some admit,

is not worthy of contemplating for lifestyle changes (admittedly something only the Holy Spirit can accomplish).

[:"red"] "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [/] 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

[:"red"] "....With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." [/] Matthew 19:26 KJV

Cheers!!

July 23, 2006

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melvin mccarty said:

Although this is common practice on these discussion boards to my mind it is a despicable practice.

[:"red"] "

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God .

" [/]

I'm supposing this is one of those Words, isolated from others, that you find despicable, Mel. Don't you find it unusual that God would identify every Word as important for carrying principles He speaks and wishes followed, whereas man is left to insure that identical circumstances must surround any excerpts before a Word is considered as worthy of consideration.

What do you consider the worth of John 3:16, isolated from all other texts. Or do you believe 2 Tim 2:15 is also void of truth when taken on its' own merit.

[:"red"] "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth ." [/] 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

Scripture that must be taken only in immediate original context in order for man to hear principle from it, reveals another ploy by the enemy of souls to entice sinful, fallen human beings to cast away the part of the Word of God they see as unworthy to merit their attention as the guide to Life.

[:"red"] "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." [/] John 14:6 KJV

[:"red"] "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." [/] John 5:39 KJV

And doesn't it also seem strange to you that He Who points out clearly that we, who are to be judged by every Word that passes from His mouth, are not allowed by some, to hold Him to the same criteria?

[:"red"] "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." [/] Matt 4:4 KJV

[:"red"] "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." [/] Isaiah 55:11 KJV

All bold emph mine LHC

July 23, 2006

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Robert said:

From this it necessarily follows that all who die before they are capable of such willful, persistent, unbelief are saved.

Rob

Interesting point of view, but I do see it as agreeing with the Word.

[:"red"] "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." [/] James 2:13 NASB

Keep the faith!!

July 23, 2006

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Robert said:

As to "wickedness" vs "selfishness"....I don't think there's a difference, but if there is it really doesn't matter because the law condemns all sin.

Rob

[:"red"] "....because [it is] not of faith; and all that [is] not of faith is sin. " [/] Rom 14:23 YLT

[:"red"] "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God...

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." [/] 1 John 5:13,16

KJV Brackets theirs' LHC

Keep the faith!!

July 23, 2006

That

photo has released the minions

IMHO

July 23, 2006

If we have to be born again before we can even see the kingdom of heaven, then there was something wrong with our first birth.

The common denominator that we are each born with is self-centerdness.

olger

July 23, 2006

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Shane said:

I think G4J is just having some fun by making us think outside the box.

I have seen many occasions where "thinking outside the box" was an excuse to think outside the Book.

Gerry

July 23, 2006

Just a quick question: did Jesus think only "inside" the Book?

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