Are People Born In Christ?

[Samie]

I started this thread in deference to Robert's request.

[Samie]

Are people born in Christ? My answer is obvious: Yes.

When Adam sinned, God implemented His plan of redemption devised before the foundation of the world and reinstated man to his pre-fall status, an act that cost Him His only begotten Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Hence, all of Adam's descendants are born In Christ because Adam was In Christ when they were born. Born In Christ Who is our life, people are born spiritually alive. The plan of redemption was revealed in the life, death, resurrection and high priestly ministry of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the heavenly sanctuary.

On the other hand, Robert teaches that God's intervention came only when He sent Jesus to earth, around 4000 years after the Fall. This insinuates that God did NOTHING to forestall the change of Adam's nature from good to bad right after the Fall but simply watched as man's nature morphed from good to bad, causing all of Adam's descendants to be born spiritually dead in sin instead of born spiritually alive in Christ.

Robert correctly believes that God is agape but the way he portrays God does not depict Him to be such IF indeed He for 4000 years simply folded His hands as man's nature morphed from good to bad.

 

[Samie]

But Robert is not alone in the belief that people are born spiritually dead in sin. Majority in Christendom believe likewise. They cite verses that they say back up their position but those verses actually say what people decide to be AFTER they are born and reached the age of accountability, and NOT their status BEFORE or DURING birth.

What amazes me is that despite God's sending His Son, most preachers continue to propagate the teaching that people are physically born spiritually dead in sin as if God did not yet through Christ reveal His plan of redemption so people can be born spiritually alive in Christ. Instead, these preachers teach that UNLESS people put in their share of the deal in the basket, they cannot be In Christ: people must FIRST believe so they can be In Christ. And wonder of wonders, they not only argue to death that they are not preaching salvation by works, but at the same time they fail to see that they are requiring to do that which the spiritually dead in sin cannot do: believe. Why can't the spiritually dead in sin believe? Because they are yet apart from Christ, and apart from Him Christ said man can do NOTHING.

[Samie]

38 minutes ago, Samie said:

Robert correctly believes that God is agape but the way he portrays God does not depict Him to be such IF indeed He for 4000 years simply folded His hands as man's nature morphed from good to bad.

Robert argues that for God to intervene right on the day of the Fall is to use force, creating robots instead of having freewill. But that is inaccurate. Adam through Christ was merely reinstated to his pre-fall status. And his pre-fall status was in the image of God, in the likeness of His Maker. He was created with a free will, not a robot. Yet, despite created in the image of God, Adam sinned.

Reinstating Adam to his pre-fall status is not use of force nor creating robots. Adam still retained his freewill; so with all his descendants. They can choose to be overcome of evil or overcome evil with good.

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

When Adam sinned, God implemented His plan of redemption devised before the foundation of the world and reinstated man to his pre-fall status, an act that cost Him His only begotten Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Scripture? 

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

Scripture?

Rom 5:10. You know this verse, why ask for it, Robert?

Adam was reinstated to his pre-fall status through the death of Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. There is no other name under heaven given among men whereby Adam and his descendants, BEFORE or AFTER the cross, must be saved (Acts 4:12).

[Robert]

42 minutes ago, Samie said:

Rom 5:10. You know this verse, why ask for it, Robert?

Adam was reinstated to his pre-fall status through the death of Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. There is no other name under heaven given among men whereby Adam and his descendants, BEFORE or AFTER the cross, must be saved (Acts 4:12).

10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Reconciled does not mean we as children of fallen Adam are reinstated to our pre-fall status.  Before the fall Adam was sinless - are you therefore inferring we are sinless?

[Samie]

9 minutes ago, Robert said:

Reconciled does not mean we as children of fallen Adam are reinstated to our pre-fall status.  Before the fall Adam was sinless - are you therefore inferring we are sinless?

You raised an issue asking for Scripture regarding my statement that Adam was reinstated to his pre-fall spiritual status. I provided Rom 5:10 & Acts 4:12 and cited that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now you seem to introduce another issue: from "Adam being reinstated to his pre-fall spiritual status" to "we as being sinless". Can we first finish the issue at hand before going to another one?

Adam sinned, and that's a fact. When God reinstated him to his pre-fall status, God did not UNDO the fact that Adam had sinned and therefore a sinner. Adam was a sinner reinstated to his pre-fall status. He was a sinner forgiven In Christ.

Do you have any other concern relative to this first issue on whether God indeed reinstated Adam to his pre-fall spiritual status?

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

Adam sinned, and that's a fact. When God reinstated him to his pre-fall status, God did not UNDO the fact that Adam had sinned and therefore a sinner. Adam was a sinner reinstated to his pre-fall status. He was a sinner forgiven In Christ.

That's totally different.  We are all forgiven sinners because of Christ's doing and dying, but forgiven doesn't mean we have pre-fall natures.

[Samie]

Sorry, but I must insist, Robert: Do you have any other concern relative to this first issue on whether God indeed reinstated Adam to his pre-fall spiritual status?

If none, then we can move on to your next concern relative to my position.

[LifeHiscost]

If one looks to Jesus as the Finisher and the Author of our faith, this question may be moot, however if a child must develop into a reasoning individual before becoming a believer in Him, what significance does the time element of re-enstatement into the body of Christ mean in the journey of faith? And if we now can know the power ourselves as to the mystery, why is it still called a mystery?

50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.…

1 Corinthians 15

Maybe the answer is fully answered in this below;

17When Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was told that Lazarus had already been in his grave for four days. 18Bethany was only a few miles^d down the road from Jerusalem, 19and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss. 20When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house. 21Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask.”

23Jesus told her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24“Yes,” Martha said, “he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day.”

25Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life.^e Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. 26Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she told him. “I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God.” 28Then she returned to Mary. She called Mary aside from the mourners and told her, “The Teacher is here and wants to see you.” 29So Mary immediately went to him.

30Jesus had stayed outside the village, at the place where Martha met him. 31When the people who were at the house consoling Mary saw her leave so hastily, they assumed she was going to Lazarus’s grave to weep. So they followed her there. 32When Mary arrived and saw Jesus, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, a deep anger welled up within him,^f and he was deeply troubled. 34“Where have you put him?” he asked them.

They told him, “Lord, come and see.” 35Then Jesus wept. 36The people who were standing nearby said, “See how much he loved him!” 37But some said, “This man healed a blind man. Couldn’t he have kept Lazarus from dying?”

38Jesus was still angry as he arrived at the tomb, a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance. 39“Roll the stone aside,” Jesus told them.

But Martha, the dead man’s sister, protested, “Lord, he has been dead for four days. The smell will be terrible.”

40Jesus responded, “Didn’t I tell you that you would see God’s glory if you believe?” 41So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, thank you for hearing me. 42You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.” 43Then Jesus shouted,

“Lazarus, come out!”

 

[Gerr]

If every child of Adam was reinstated to Adam's pre-fall status by virtue of the Lamb that was "slain from the foundation of the world", then it was pointless for Jesus to tell Nicodemus, "You must be born again."  And if all are born again at birth, then all are saved at birth.  

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

If every child of Adam was reinstated to Adam's pre-fall status by virtue of the Lamb that was "slain from the foundation of the world", then it was pointless for Jesus to tell Nicodemus, "You must be born again."

It was not pointless for Jesus to tell Nicodemus to be born again. Scriptures teach us that God caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Jesus from the grave (1 Pet 1:3). The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world at the time He talked with Nicodemus was not yet resurrected. Without the resurrection of Jesus, everyone is doomed for no one can be born again.

 

11 minutes ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

And if all are born again at birth, then all are saved at birth.  

Because people were born again when Jesus resurrected, people are physically born already In Christ. And Yes, they are saved and are heaven-bound. UNLESS God through Christ blots out their names from the book of life for not overcoming evil with good. Christ Himself assures us that overcomers will not be blotted out from it.

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

Because people were born again when Jesus resurrected, people are physically born already In Christ. And Yes, they are saved and are heaven-bound. UNLESS God through Christ blots out their names from the book of life for not overcoming evil with good. Christ Himself assures us that overcomers will not be blotted out from it.

Again, you need to differentiate between individuals born in Adam's likeness and our corporate life that Christ as God assumed at the incarnation.  

[Robert]

5 hours ago, Samie said:

UNLESS God through Christ blots out their names from the book of life for not overcoming evil with good. Christ Himself assures us that overcomers will not be blotted out from it.

There's nothing to overcome if we are born with holy flesh.  Your theology makes no sense.

[Robert]

5 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

"You must be born again."  And if all are born again at birth, then all are saved at birth.  

Gerry, you know my position:  "You must be born again" applies to all men who can comprehend, either implicitly or explicitly, God's Spirit.  "You must be born again" cannot apply to infants at birth.  They are safe "in Christ" because Christ, by His doing & dying, has reversed Adam's condemnation and has legally justified all unto life.  

 

 

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

There's nothing to overcome if we are born with holy flesh.  Your theology makes no sense.

Before the Fall and since day one Adam was brought into existence Adam has what you call "holy flesh".  Yet God provided him with something to overcome: to overcome the evil of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He was overcome of that evil instead of him overcoming it. But God saved him that same day he sinned through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Same thing applies to all his descendants.

Your theology correctly teaches that God is agape. Yet your portrayal that God did NOTHING to save Adam that same day he sinned NEGATIVELY paints a picture of our God of love. Even an earthly father will not just fold his hands doing nothing but simply watch his child drown. But that is how your theology depicts our heavenly Father.

And you tell me my theology makes no sense, brother? Think again.

[Robert]

Your off on a tangent.  I'm going to let you argue with yourself.  I'm done.

Rob

[Gerr]

9 hours ago, Samie said:

It was not pointless for Jesus to tell Nicodemus to be born again. Scriptures teach us that God caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Jesus from the grave (1 Pet 1:3). The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world at the time He talked with Nicodemus was not yet resurrected. Without the resurrection of Jesus, everyone is doomed for no one can be born again.

 

Because people were born again when Jesus resurrected, people are physically born already In Christ. And Yes, they are saved and are heaven-bound. UNLESS God through Christ blots out their names from the book of life for not overcoming evil with good. Christ Himself assures us that overcomers will not be blotted out from it.

So the basis for my salvation is MY overcoming and not because Jesus overcame?

 

[Samie]

11 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

So the basis for my salvation is MY overcoming and not because Jesus overcame?

Please read and understand what I am posting. Again for the nth time:

Because of what God through Christ has done for humanity, people are born already In Christ and hence ALREADY heaven-bound and therefore saved. You did not do anything to be In Christ. But whether you will forever remain in the Body of Christ or not ENTIRELY depends on whether God through Christ will judge you as having overcame evil or not. Christ Himself assures us that overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life but will be seated with Him - Who is also an overcomer - in His throne. Rev 3:5, 21.

[TrevorL]

Greetings Samie,

On ‎20‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 3:35 AM, Samie said:

Are people born in Christ? My answer is obvious: Yes.

No, we are all the descendants of Adam and hence we are born in Adam, partaking of the consequences of his sin. We only become in Christ when we believe the gospel and allow this gospel to motivate us to be baptised and live the crucified and resurrected life Acts 8:5,12, Galatians 2:20.

Kind regards Trevor

[Samie]

Yes, we are all descendants of Adam, Trevor. That's why we are all born in Christ.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

We only become in Christ when we believe the gospel and allow this gospel to motivate us to be baptised and live the crucified and resurrected life

Those NOT in Christ are apart from Christ, and therefore cannot believe, cannot allow the gospel, etc. Why? Because Christ said so: Apart from Me, man can do NOTHING. John 15:5

[Robert]

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

No, we are all the descendants of Adam and hence we are born in Adam, partaking of the consequences of his sin.

I'm glad that we are discussing this important issue.

Yes, we are descendants of fallen Adam.  Note "fallen" Adam.  Not only do we share his mortal life, but we received from him our bent-to-self.  Since we are born without God's Spirit our minds and fallen natures are in complete harmony. Thus we are by nature children of wrath. See Eph 2:1-3

Quote

We only become in Christ when we believe the gospel and allow this gospel to motivate us to be baptised and live the crucified and resurrected life Acts 8:5,12, Galatians 2:20.

No...not true.  Paul states that when "One died, all died".  He states that "our old life was crucified with Him (Christ)".  This truth happened before we were even born.  So we were put into Christ over 2000 years ago; not when we as individuals believed.

The question is how were "we" put into Christ when we as individuals didn't even exist?  Yes?

[Samie]

21 minutes ago, Robert said:

Thus we are by nature children of wrath.

So Jesus by nature is child of wrath. But that's according to Robert.