Samie Posted May 26, 2016 Author Posted May 26, 2016 Our nature is what Jesus had: 1. He was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh. Rom 8:3 2. He was made in the likeness of men. Phil 2:7 3. He was made in all things like unto His brethren. Heb 2:17
Robert Posted May 26, 2016 Posted May 26, 2016 8 hours ago, Samie said: So Jesus by nature is child of wrath. But that's according to Robert. You really need to look at the context before making such a ridiculous conclusion. Eph 2:3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest… Did Jesus, as the son of man, indulge the desires of our fallen nature with His mind or was sin (the love of self) repulsive to Him? Answer: The latter.... So Jesus never gave into the temptations of our fallen humanity. He was born spiritually alive. Hence His mind was never in harmony with our nature....
Robert Posted May 26, 2016 Posted May 26, 2016 8 hours ago, Samie said: Our nature is what Jesus had: 1. He was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh. Rom 8:3 2. He was made in the likeness of men. Phil 2:7 3. He was made in all things like unto His brethren. Heb 2:17 Jesus never had a sinful nature. Here's Ellen White: “He (Jesus as God) took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted.” {MM 181.3}
Samie Posted May 26, 2016 Author Posted May 26, 2016 52 minutes ago, Robert said: You really need to look at the context before making such a ridiculous conclusion. Eph 2:3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest… Did Jesus, as the son of man, indulge the desires of our fallen nature with His mind or was sin (the love of self) repulsive to Him? Answer: The latter.... So Jesus never gave into the temptations of our fallen humanity. He was born spiritually alive. Hence His mind was never in harmony with our nature.... The main issue of this thread is whether people are born spiritually alive OR born spiritually dead in sin. One way to arrive at the correct answer to the question is to consider the nature of Christ because Scriptures tell us that Jesus is a COPY of the PATTERN. According to the Bible, the PATTERN is His brethren: NKJ Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. So, was Jesus born spiritually alive? Even Robert says, Yes. Then as a COPY of the PATTERN, the PATTERN must necessarily be born spiritually alive. But why did the COPY not sin while the PATTERN sinned although they are both born spiritually alive? Because the PATTERN, just like Adam who came out from God's hands spiritually alive, chose to be overcome of evil. But the COPY chose to overcome evil with good. That's why only overcomers of evil will Christ not blot out from the book of life. Robert's doctrine that people deserve to be punished because they sin being born spiritually dead in sin, is NOT UNLIKE faulting and whipping Robert's dogs because they bark instead of mew.
Robert Posted May 27, 2016 Posted May 27, 2016 2 hours ago, Samie said: So, was Jesus born spiritually alive? Even Robert says, Yes. Then as a COPY of the PATTERN, the PATTERN must necessarily be born spiritually alive. What on earth are you talking about?
TrevorL Posted May 27, 2016 Posted May 27, 2016 Greetings again Samie, 2 hours ago, Samie said: One way to arrive at the correct answer to the question is to consider the nature of Christ because Scriptures tell us that Jesus is a COPY of the PATTERN. According to the Bible, the PATTERN is His brethren: NKJ Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. I am not sure that I want to follow and answer all that you have stated, and I agree with Robert that such statements as Jesus being born spiritually alive is an unusual concept to base your argument. Yes I agree that Jesus was made like his brethren. A few verses later it is emphasized that he had the same nature as his brethren: Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Notice the emphasis by the many terms used that Jesus is the same nature as his brethren, and that one reason for this was so that he could accomplish deliverance through death. Adam when created was not subject to death, but death came as a result of sin. All of Adam’s descendants inherited this subjection to death including Jesus as Mary was his mother. Also Jesus was tempted in all points like his brethren. The mind of man is described in the following and we are counselled as to the course of action required: Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV): The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Ephesians 4:21-24 (KJV): 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Kind regards Trevor LifeHiscost 1
Samie Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 Temporarily granting, but not acceding, that the doctrine that people are born spiritually dead in sin is correct, then, people are born APART from Christ. It NECESSARILY follows that they, as per Christ's words, can do NOTHING: they cannot believe, cannot accept the gift of salvation, etc. But it is a fact that people can believe, can accept the gift of salvation, etc. Therefore people can do SOMETHING, and that proves people are NOT apart from Christ and therefore born spiritually alive.
Samie Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 10 hours ago, Robert said: What on earth are you talking about? I am talking about you whipping your dogs because they bark instead of mew.
Robert Posted May 27, 2016 Posted May 27, 2016 4 hours ago, Samie said: I am talking about you whipping your dogs because they bark instead of mew.
Robert Posted May 27, 2016 Posted May 27, 2016 4 hours ago, Samie said: It NECESSARILY follows that they, as per Christ's words, can do NOTHING: they cannot believe, cannot accept the gift of salvation, etc. Please, stop....Context, Samie, context. We have free-wills, Samie. We can chose to believe. Every man is given a measure of light and therefore every man is given a measure of faith. What can't be done outside Christ are good works. That's the context of John 15:5 "I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit (good works). For apart from Me you can do nothing."
Samie Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Robert said: Please, stop....Context, Samie, context. By concocting his own CONTEXT, Robert changes Christ's NOTHING to SOMETHING Jesus: For apart from Me you can do NOTHING Robert: For apart from Christ you can do SOMETHING: believe
Samie Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 Believing is exercising faith. It is a spiritual act DOABLE only when one is in Christ because APART from Christ man can do NOTHING. And it is just impossible for one who is yet spiritually dead to do any spiritual act as it is impossible for one who is physically dead to do any physical act. Robert's doctrine creates spiritual zombies. Why not, he can even create SOMETHING out of Christ's NOTHING.
Samie Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 Born in Christ, people are ABLE to believe. Because they have freewill, they can choose to believe or not. Those who decide and choose to believe overcome the twin evils of unbelief and disbelief. And those whom God through Christ judges as overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life and will be seated with Christ - Who also is an overcomer - in His throne.
Robert Posted May 27, 2016 Posted May 27, 2016 30 minutes ago, Samie said: By concocting his own CONTEXT, Robert changes Christ's NOTHING to SOMETHING Jesus: For apart from Me you can do NOTHING Robert: For apart from Christ you can do SOMETHING: believe Read the context!
Samie Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 7 minutes ago, Samie said: Born in Christ, people are ABLE to believe. Because they have freewill, they can choose to believe or not. Those who decide and choose to believe overcome the twin evils of unbelief and disbelief. And those whom God through Christ judges as overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life and will be seated with Christ - Who also is an overcomer - in His throne. How about all the others who were likewise born in Christ, but decided and chose to be overcome of evil? Christ will blot them out from the book of life, dismembered from being part of His Body, expelled from membership in the Family of God.
Robert Posted May 27, 2016 Posted May 27, 2016 12 minutes ago, Samie said: Born in Christ... What do you mean by that phrase? How are we "born in Christ". I was born of a woman (my mother)....Ultimately my ancestors can be traced back to Adam.
Samie Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 Go back to the OP and the post that immediately follows it. Again, people are ALREADY in Christ even before birth.
Samie Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 30 minutes ago, Samie said: Born in Christ, people are ABLE to believe. Because they have freewill, they can choose to believe or not. Those who decide and choose to believe overcome the twin evils of unbelief and disbelief. And those whom God through Christ judges as overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life and will be seated with Christ - Who also is an overcomer - in His throne. 18 minutes ago, Samie said: How about all the others who were likewise born in Christ, but decided and chose to be overcome of evil? Christ will blot them out from the book of life, dismembered from being part of His Body, expelled from membership in the Family of God. Yet Robert insinuates that Samie is teaching against man's freewill.
Samie Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 The good news is people are born IN Christ and therefore born spiritually alive. The bad news is people are born spiritually dead in sin and therefore born APART from Christ. I rather preach the good news.
Robert Posted May 27, 2016 Posted May 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Samie said: Again, people are ALREADY in Christ even before birth. Repeating something false doesn't make it true, Samie. How was I in Christ before my birth? Give me Bible answers not Samie answers.
Samie Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 2 hours ago, Robert said: Repeating something false doesn't make it true, Samie. Repeating something true doesn't make it false, Robert. 2 hours ago, Robert said: How was I in Christ before my birth? In exactly the same way God was able to choose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world. KJV Ephesians 1:3-5 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
Samie Posted May 27, 2016 Author Posted May 27, 2016 2 hours ago, Robert said: Repeating something false doesn't make it true, Samie. One example of that is Robert's creating SOMETHING out of Christ's NOTHING. Christ Himself said that apart from Him man can do NOTHING, yet Robert insists those APART from Christ can do SOMETHING: they can believe, accept the gift of salvation, repent, etc., so that they can be In Christ. He changes Christ's NOTHING to SOMETHING in order to promote his false doctrine.
Robert Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 3 hours ago, Samie said: In exactly the same way God was able to choose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world. KJV Ephesians 1:3-5 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he (God the Father) hath chosen us in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love... Samie - are you holy and blameless? Let me remind you of what EGW stated years ago: "Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous word...." AA 561,562
Robert Posted May 28, 2016 Posted May 28, 2016 38 minutes ago, Robert said: Samie - are you holy and blameless? Let me remind you of what EGW stated years ago: "Let the recording angels write the history of the holy struggles and conflicts of the people of God; let them record their prayers and tears; but let not God be dishonored by the declaration from human lips, "I am sinless; I am holy." Sanctified lips will never give utterance to such presumptuous word...." AA 561,562 So "no" Samie, you are not holy and blameless as a descendant of Adam. About 2000 years ago Christ (as God) united Himself to our corporate, fallen humanity in the womb of Mary. By our corporate humanity I mean the life we all have in common with Adam. All of humanity shares Adam's fallen life. For thirty something years Christ lived a perfect life to God's law. Where was your corporate life? In Him. And on the cross your "old life was crucified with" Christ. See Rom 6:6 Hence the justice of the law has been satisfied. Sunday morning Christ, as God, was raised, not with our fallen humanity, but a glorified corporate humanity. He took this glorified humanity to heaven to represent sinners, like yourself, complete "in Himself". LifeHiscost 1
Samie Posted May 28, 2016 Author Posted May 28, 2016 3 hours ago, Robert said: Samie - are you holy and blameless? Yes, we all are. Scriptures say we were made holy and perfect, hence blameless, through the sacrifice of the body of Christ. But you don't seem to believe what Scriptures say especially if your doctrine is against what they say, do you? NIV Hebrews 10:10, 14 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
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