666

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

So now we can ask; what Islamic City meets this very specific description of being both a sovereign nation and a city?

Try the Mecca/Medina complex in Saudi Arabia on the coast of the Red Sea.  Mecca is the pearl of Islam.  It is an extremely wealthy city though which pours much of what the Saudis import - which is just about everything except oil.  Mecca - despite being open only to Muslims in good standing - is by far the most visited city on the planet.  This is mostly because of the requirement on all Muslims to visit Mecca at least once in their lifetime, if possible.  Also - as I said earlier - it is very close to a seaport in spite of being in a desert.

Look at Rev. 17 and 18; and compare the geographical characteristics of Mecca/Medina compared to Rome.

Rev. 17:3 talks about John being taken away to the wilderness.  In the Bible, the wilderness is always a desert; not some verdant secluded mountain valley.  Rome is not is a desert; but the Mecca/Medina Complex sure is.

Rev. 17:18 talks about the woman that reigns over the kings of the earth.  Mecca rules over the second largest single group of people in the world - Muslims.  By 2030, Muslims will likely be the largest religion in the world - surpassing Christianity.  Mecca/Medina will hold sway over more than a quarter of the world's population.

Rev. 18:11-13 shows the despair of the merchants of the earth over no markets for their precious cargoes.  Neither Rome nor Jerusalem is a sufficient importer of goods to upset the whole world's economy.  But the Saudis certainly are.

Rev. 18:17 talks of the despair of sea captains over the lack of markets for their goods.  Jerusalem is not close to a big naval port; nor is Rome.  But outside of Mecca Medina is the Ports of Jeddah and Yanbu- the largest  ports on the Red Sea.  The Saudis are busily expanding these ports to support the influx of business to the area.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.  My lack of posting skills and  sheer laziness prevent me from going on and on.

 

[JoeMo]

The following quote by Edmund Spenser - an old English poet - may be appropriate for this thread:

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information which is proof against all argument and and which cannot fail to keep men in everlasting ignorance.  That principle is condemnation before investigation".

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, dgrimm60 said:

DAN Chapters 2==7==8 make is clear that this is the papacy

IMO - those chapters do NOT "make it clear that this is the papacy".    This is your opinion, and that of historic Adventists.   There are other candidates just as worthy of consideration for "the Beast", the "little horn", and "the harlot".  

[Gustave]

Interesting, I didn't know that about William Miller! One thing is for certain -

2 John 1,7:  "For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an antichrist."

1 John 2, 22: "Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son".

No Pope I'm aware of has ever denied that Jesus didn't come in the flesh NOR has any Pope I'm aware of ever denied that Jesus indeed IS THE CHRIST. It would seem that for the Catholic Church to qualify as being the antichrist would necessitate, at the minimum, declaring we're still waiting for the Messiah AND Jesus wasn't the Christ. Sitting through just a fraction of a Mass or reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church would dispel both possibilities should anyone be uneducated enough to realize this already.

[dgrimm60]

8THDAYPRIEST

DAN CHAP 2==7==8   are from the bible  WHICH was from the word of GOD === and not my opinion if you can not believe the bible then something is wrong

as for as EARLY S,.D.A. history William  Miller  was not a S.D.A. when he learned about this prophecy 

dgrimm60

[JoeMo]

14 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Some doctrines would contradict your point

Name one.

[8thdaypriest]

14 minutes ago, dgrimm60 said:

8THDAYPRIEST

DAN CHAP 2==7==8   are from the bible  WHICH was from the word of GOD === and not my opinion if you can not believe the bible then something is wrong

as for as EARLY S,.D.A. history William  Miller  was not a S.D.A. when he learned about this prophecy 

dgrimm60

We here on adventistan forum,  discuss for many hours different texts "from the Bible" .   We all agree that the Bible was inspired of God.  We do not all agree on the MEANING or the INTERPRETATION of every passage.  That's where the discussion comes in. 

Can you show me one text from Daniel Chapter 2 or 7 or 8 which uses the word "Pope" or Papacy" ?  No - you can't.   Which means that your interpretation of those passages is your opinion.  Yes I realize that your opinion is shared by many within the SDA church.   

I am NOT saying that you are absolutely WRONG.  I'm saying there are other opinions, and you should respect those who post them - even when you do not agree with them.   Using slurs like "you can not believe the bible" and "something is wrong" (with you) , to describe those who do not share your viewpoint - will not win you any followers here. 

[JoeMo]

22 minutes ago, dgrimm60 said:

then something is wrong

as for as EARLY S,.D.A. history William  Miller  was not a S.D.A. when he learned about this prophecy 

The "standard" SDA interpretations of Dan 2, 7, and 8 are human constructs for interpreting those prophecies.  They are obviously correct concerning the 2nd and 3rd beasts being Medo-Persia and Greece - the text explicitly says that.  But it doesn't say who the 4th beast is; just says he's terrible.  Concluding it is papal Rome is a stretch. 

[Gustave]

28 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Some doctrines would contradict your point

What doctrines of the Catholic Church can you point me to in the Catechism or in the Church Councils that demonstrate the Magisterium denies that Jesus was Christ and that He came in the flesh? This I've got to see. 

[8thdaypriest]

33 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

In verse 15 we have a plain definition of the Scripture symbol of waters; they denote peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. The angel told John, while calling his attention to this subject, that he would show him the judgment of this great harlot. In verse 16 that judgment is specified.

"Mecca" is not BOTH a sovereign nation and a city; it DOES NOT rule over "the kings of the Earth:

Religious Babylon certainly includes apostate Christendom, both Protestant and Catholic

 

 

The Papacy does not rule over the Saudi king.    

I agree about the symbol of waters denoting peoples.  

I'm starting to think more of a world ruling council of some sort - something like the UN.  Let's say the UN was elevated to a ruling body.  

The "city" (the Harlot) must sit on 7 hills/mountains.   OK - but "mountains" are symbolic of kingdoms or nations.    That could mean that 7 most powerful nations held up, or supported the "Harlot" city.   Maybe like the UN Security Council with only the 7 largest economies represented.  

The UN is located at New York City, a city that definitely could damage the world's trade - in a big way - if it were destroyed.  

[dgrimm60]

JOEMO

DAN 2  in the image of metals the legs are iron====in DAN 7 the undescribed has iron teeth===the history calls  PAPGAN ROME the iron empire

there must be a connection ----if DAN 2 ==7 ==8  are correct about the 2nd and 3rd beast(kingdoms)  when not  know the 4th beast(kingdom)

history seems to know===as for as papal ROME it comes out of PAGAN ROME this  is also in history ====then why not believe the bible on this point

dgrimm70

 

[dgrimm60]

8YHDAYPRIEST

as for bible verse about the PAGAN ROME  AND PAPAL ROME  ===look at DAN 7 : VERSES 19==20==21==22==23==24==25

if you can not get pagan and papal Rome out of these bible verses  something is wrong==== and these can not apply  to ISLAM

dgrimm70

 

[Gustave]

3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I didnt say "Catholic Church" in my replies. Is there a reason that you bring that up?

I'm guilty of making an assumption.  

[dgrimm60]

8THDAYPRIEST

if you thought I was down grading your thoughts and statements I am sorry

but THE BIBLE IS TRUTH not an opinion===GOD THE FATHER===JESUS ==THE HOLY SPIRIT

have a plan for people to follow and be saved=====they do not want this plan to be a mystery  but clear

that is why GOD gave these prophecies  to help us  we need to pray the  HOLY SPIRIT can guide people in to all truth

dgrimm60

[Lone Ranger]

12 hours ago, dgrimm60 said:

but THE BIBLE IS TRUTH not an opinion...

True, but our understanding of the Bible and our interpretations of the Bible, even our translations of the Bible, are opinion.

[Lone Ranger]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 6:31 PM, JoeMo said:

Of course not - Islam did not exist at that time.  There is no scripture that accuses the RCC of being The or an antichrist either.  Since you pushed the point, I will quote the scriptures to which I was referring above:

"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22).  Does the RCC deny the Father and the Son? No.  Does Islam deny the Father and the Son?  Yes - Allah is god and he has no son.

"This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." (1 John 4:2-3)  Does the RCC deny that Jesus came in the flesh from God? No.  Does Islam? Yes.

"I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 1:7)  Does the RCC deny that Jesus is God/Man?  No.  Does Islam? Yes!

Based on those 3 criteria, who best fits the role of Beast/Antichrist - the RCC or Islam?

I'm not saying Islam definitely is the the Beast/Antichrist; but it is a heck of a lot better candidate than the RCC.

JoeMo, you make some very valid points. The Scriptures you quoted clearly do not fit the RCC.

And very interesting info regarding the Saudi ports and cities.

[dgrimm60]

THE LONE RANGER

so are you saying that opinions are more important than the bible truth==== this is what the bible calls 

mans traditions over GODS WORD=== JESUS even warns us about this MATT 15 :3 , 6===MARK  7 : 9, 13

dgrimm60

[dgrimm60]

LONE RANGER

the bible says in  2 PET  chap  1 verse 20  that prophecy is not a private interpretation 

dgrimm60

[Lone Ranger]

35 minutes ago, dgrimm60 said:

...so are you saying that opinions are more important than the bible truth...

Yes.

And No.

When one reads the Bible they form an opinion of what it is saying or what someone tells them it's saying.  It's how we're built. We really have no other option for understanding anything, from Scripture to your microwave manual.

Having formed an opinion we then act on that opinion, or understanding. 

So in one aspect the opinion is more important than the Bible, because the Bible is, really, words on a page, but how we understand those words is what makes a difference. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in. To "lead us into all understanding."

[Lone Ranger]

13 minutes ago, dgrimm60 said:

LONE RANGER

the bible says in  2 PET  chap  1 verse 20  that prophecy is not a private interpretation 

dgrimm60

And...that is YOUR OPINION of what it is saying.

In reality (ie: MY OPINION), it's not saying that at all. It says something entirely different.

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Now you are making it personal. Doug was not being disrespectful. He is the last one on this forum I would say that about and he did give some scriptures which you have not proven one way or the other.

OK

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

why not believe the bible on this point

dgrimm70

I do not agree with - your interpretation of those passages - on this point. 

Of course I "believe the Bible", but many prophecies did not come with ready interpretations.   Thousands of years would reveal the fulfillment.  END TIME prophecy may not be understood until we get there - to the "time of the end".  Daniel was told to "shut up the book".   

Yes - I remember that Adventists believe "the time of the end" began in 1844.   I don't agree 

I will post later concerning my own understanding, at this point.

[stinsonmarri]

On 8/12/2018 at 7:38 PM, JoeMo said:

You can also search for Islam at the top of the page.  Joel Richardson has many excellent books on the topic; as does his website https://joelstrumpet.com/.

Neither was Catholicism.  Would you deny that Islam is a major world empire now?  How many roving bands of fanatic Catholics are going around beheading people?  Who performs more terrorist acts - Catholics or Muslims?  Look at the evidence.

 

Because Islam is not a major world Empire if you really knew what the word mean. Religion does not make a world empire, political force does. However, religious ideology is behind the politic.

Empire: a group of nations or peoples ruled over by an emperor, empress, or other powerful sovereign or government: usually a territory of greater extent than a kingdom, as the former British Empire, French Empire, Russian Empire, Byzantine Empire, or Roman Empire.

Joe you make it feel like we want to just pick out the Catholic Church again because of the people and that is not true. I provided you just a pinch of history and many in the SDA Church has recanted on the evidence. I read Jan  Marcussen book and differ with it on many points. But I agree with the history of the Holy Roman Empire that Constantine formed is in Daniel and Revelation. Let me begin with why I do not accept the word Christ or Christian because they are pagan and are the crust of the major problem. Sad my church fell for it too and will not like what I am saying. So I will be detest a lot, but the facts must be provided. I am not here for fame, just a presenter.

I know the myth about Acts 11:26. It is very hard for people to accept things because of what they choose to believe. I believe at one time I was a Christian and also in the word Christ. I learned different after my last Christmas Tree. I was pregnant with my son and I was flipping through Jeremiah and I came upon Chapter 10 and it changed me as a SDA traditionalist to one of faith. I begin to check everything I once thought was true. That is why I became a Biblical Historian to understand facts. I will give to you what history showed me and it up to you to accept it or not!

Cretin (n.) Often Offensive- A person considered to be foolish or unintelligent. from Vulgar Latin *christiānus, Christian, human being, poor fellow, from Latin Chrīstiānus, Christian. The American Heritage Illustrated Encyclopedic Dictionary (Thousands of entries in the dictionary include etymologies that trace their origins back to reconstructed proto-languages. You can obtain more information about these forms in our online appendices: Indo-European Roots)

Sunday was kept holy in honour of Mithra, and the sixteenth of each month was sacred to him as mediator. The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season. Catholic Encyclopedia

Krishna or Chris-na and Christos come from the same root. Kris in Sanskrit means the pure or the sacred, ’the first emanation of the invisible Godhead, manifesting itself tangibly in spirit. . . Isis Unveiled, II, 158

As yet, no God had been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine that matter… For one year and five months the balloting lasted…” (God’s Book of Eskra, Prof. S.L. MacGuire’s translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41)

At the end of that time, Constantine returned to the gathering to discover that the presbyters had not agreed on a new deity but had balloted down to a short list of five prospects: Caesar, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Zeus (Historia Ecclesiastica, Eusebius, c. 325)

Mosaic of Jesus as Christo Sole (Christ the Sun) in Mausoleum M in the pre-fourth-century necropolis under St. Peter's Basillica, St. Peters' of Rome.

The cross was not a Christian symbol at the time of the battle – nor would be until the 6th century!). Any ‘good luck emblem’ at this date would have been the chi-rho – ambiguously the first two letters of the word Christos, the Greek word for ‘auspicious’ and also Chronos, god of time and a popular embodiment of Mithras! (On the Death of the Persecutors, chapter xliv; ANF. vii, 318.); (The fable was later embellished by the emperor's ‘minister of propaganda’, Bishop Eusebius, in his Life of Constantine (1.xxvi-xxxi))

The trinity consisted of the god Serapis (=Osiris+Apis), the goddess Isis (=Hathor, the cow-moon goddess), and the child-god Horus. In one way or another almost every other god was identified with one or other of these three aspects of the one god, even the sun god Mithras of the Persians. And they were each other; they were three, but they were also one. The Outline of History, by H. G. Wells. p. 307

With its spread among the gentiles, the pagan characteristics of Christianity gained in influence, and after Constantine the Great and the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, the traditional Hellenistic-pagan forms of civic, social, and cultural anti-Semitism (see *Apion) merged with the specifically Christian theological motifs to form an amalgam that has left a tragic legacy to history. The Encyclopedia Judaica, Vol. 5, p. 511

A tauroctony bas-relief with a Greek inscription. It may be found in the Vatican museum, in the room of the animals, and is behind the large free-standing tauroctony of CIMRM 548. Note that casual visitors are not allowed into the room (in 2014), but must remain behind the rope in the corridor, which is why all the photos are from one side.

 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Rev 17:5

I will be providing only information from history on this next. Islam was not around when all of the above begin. Ishmael nor his son created Islam, an Arab man from the mixture of Japheth, Shem and Ham form this pagan religion. History facts on that next as well!

Blessings!

[dgrimm60]

8THDAYPRIEST===LONE RANGER===JOEMO

I  guess all of you can believe what you want ===but  GOD'S TRUTH IS STILL THE TRUTH

notice I said GOD'S TRUTH==no one else's truth

dgrimm60

 

 

[Lone Ranger]

1 hour ago, dgrimm60 said:

8THDAYPRIEST===LONE RANGER===JOEMO

I  guess all of you can believe what you want ===but  GOD'S TRUTH IS STILL THE TRUTH

notice I said GOD'S TRUTH==no one else's truth

dgrimm60

 

 

dgrimm60, it would seem that you fail to recognize that what you--dgrimm60--"believes" about the Bible is in fact nothing more than YOUR opinion, just like what I (Lone Ranger) and 8THDAYPRIEST and JOEMO and everyone else thinks is also OUR OPINION.

The words of the Bible are just the words. What we believe those words are saying...is our opinion.