666

[Gregory Matthews]

In another thread that has engendered a lot of discussion, Gustave has stimulated me to thinking of the background  of the SDAL denomination in the so-called Millerite Movement.  It is of interest that the social context of that time was largely anti-Catholic.  In many ways, early views of the SDA developing denomination reflected that anti-Catholic bias.  It should be noted that today, some of those views are challenged.

I find it of interest that the view of William Miller on the so-called "666" teaching did not reflect a common anti-Catholic bias.  Rather, Miller believed that the "666" referenced a time period in which paganism was primary.   He saw this time period as beginning in 158 B.C., with a treaty between pagan Romans and the Jews and that ended in 508 A.D with the conversion of King Clovis to Christianity. 

I find this to be interesting.

p033

[8thdaypriest]

Appears this thread will be about anti-Catholic bias in the history of Adventism.   I don't have much to say about that.  Yes - I am aware of that bias.  Growing up, my Mom read many books about how awful Catholicism was, and that Catholicism is "the Harlot" of Revelation, and the Pope is "the little horn", etc. etc.   

At present, I would say Islam is much more dangerous to the freedom of Christians worldwide.  

My present belief concerning the 666 number is that it will be an identifier, without which individuals will not be able to buy or sell.  We presently have one major identifier number in the US -    our Social Security number.    I believe that one day soon,  under the BEAST system, all persons will receive a universal identifier number with six digits - six digits - six digits (eg  123456-654321-576823) .  Using such a system of identification, every person on planet earth could be identified.  Bank accounts could easily be frozen by using such a system.   

I believe nations will move towards a global, cashless system of exchange, in attempts to foil criminal enterprises,  and  rogue nations.   In a cashless system,  the UIN would become essential for buying/selling.   

The global system of government may become anti-religious - recognizing that religious belief has served to inspire wars.  

Or the new world system may be governed by a single religious entity (anti-Christ, anti-Christian). 

Or the new world system of government may take shape under a counterfeit Christ returned, which would require every one to give allegiance to that ruling Christ (or Christ representative). 

In any case,  the UIN would serve to exclude those who refuse to renounce any other allegiance, or set of religious beliefs.  

[JoeMo]

Do you think most SDA's know about Jan Marcussen's BS story of the inscription inside the Pope's mitre "Vicarivs Filii Dei"; with the Roman letters that are also numbers adding up to 666?  First of all, the Pope is known to Catholics as the "Vicar of Christ"; not the "Vicar of the Son of God".  Secondly, neither title has ever been engraved inside the Pope's mitre, according to Catholic historians (whom I have no reason to doubt).  When SDA's (or any other denomination) make up lies about another denomination, it is satan's work - not God's.  Many nonb-SDA's who have unfortunately read this garbage probably think that SDA's are kooks.

30 years ago, I drank the Kool-Aid and actually helped distribute that book.  It is something I deeply regret.

[Lone Ranger]

18 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

30 years ago, I drank the Kool-Aid and actually helped distribute that book.  It is something I deeply regret.

I used to drink the Kool-Aid. Now I drink beer and I'm much happier.

[thx4mercy]

3 minutes ago, Lone Ranger said:

I used to drink the Kool-Aid. Now I drink beer and I'm much happier.

So why in the world on a Saturday afternoon would you be reading in a forum associated with SDAs?  Don't understand why you would have an interest.

[Lone Ranger]

Yea...I'm an enigma.

I have an interest in all things religious.

[Lone Ranger]

By the way, that phrase is not original to me; I read it somewhere. And I drink Budweiser "Prohibition." (0% alcohol)

It's the sentiment I was after.

[CoAspen]

I always drop one of the '6's in my mind and think of the good 'ol days! Route 66!!

(sorry, GM)

[JoeMo]

17 hours ago, CoAspen said:

I always drop one of the '6's in my mind and think of the good 'ol days! Route 66!!

(sorry, GM)

There used to be a State Highway 666 in NM that left Route 66 just outside of Gallup, NM.  It ran through the Navaho Reservation to Farmington, NM.  People (both Navaho and Caucasian) have told me some hair-raising stories of supernatural happenings along that road.  I even had some SDA missionaries suggest that I stay indoors during the full and new moons to avoid the "skin-walkers".  Others have advised us to keep our windows and sun roofs closed as we drive through certain areas in northern NM inhabited by skin-walkers.  Just old superstitious folk tales?  The long-time Hispanic and Native American residents of the area will tell you differently.

[Lone Ranger]

There are a lot of similar stories going back a long way about that region. Personally, I would not dismiss them out-of-hand. Lost gold, lost gold mines, people disappearing, strange lights and figures dancing on the mesas, people found in the flat desert with injuries consistent with falling from a great height. One such old man said he "fell through a hole in the sky." (that one is from Carlos Castaneda A Separate Reality  if I recall correctly.)

Being a great Louis L'Amour fan he has an interesting read called "The Haunted Mesa" which involves a lot of these myths/legends/stories.

[dgrimm60]

HEY LL

the number  666  is not the mark of the beast====it is to identify the beast power

dgrimm60

[stinsonmarri]

19 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Do you think most SDA's know about Jan Marcussen's BS story of the inscription inside the Pope's mitre "Vicarivs Filii Dei"; with the Roman letters that are also numbers adding up to 666?  First of all, the Pope is known to Catholics as the "Vicar of Christ"; not the "Vicar of the Son of God".  Secondly, neither title has ever been engraved inside the Pope's mitre, according to Catholic historians (whom I have no reason to doubt).  When SDA's (or any other denomination) make up lies about another denomination, it is satan's work - not God's.  Many nonb-SDA's who have unfortunately read this garbage probably think that SDA's are kooks.

30 years ago, I drank the Kool-Aid and actually helped distribute that book.  It is something I deeply regret.

It is sad when you hear people look to leaders like Jan Marcussen without checking out what they say is what the Bible states. It is also sad when talking about Catholicism that is referring to the people. Many are sincere in their faith and belief. But if we walk down history, SDA was not the only ones against Catholicism, from the beginning of the Reformation and until it formed the various Protestant denominations should be included. The following were against the Catholic Church or anti-Catholic: Nicolaus Von Amsdorf, Martin Luther, Flacius, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, F. B. Meyer and many more!

This problem is no different then hating gay people, which is wrong. We are suppose to hate the sin. The Catholic Church teaching is the sin and not the people. We need to read the Bible and prove all things to what it says. We all need to stop blaming denominations and blame yourself. We all have a mind and we should do what the Bible says. Be like the Bereans, they didn't just believe Paul they search the Scriptures to see what he was saying was truthful and factual. We should always check out what is presented and also stop trying to interpret the Bible. That's the reason we have all of these various denominations and non-denominations. We all have a right to present our view but we all also have a right to check out the view and its validity. Everything that sounds or look good is not good or correct. Even the Bible tells you to choose!!! The Bible is not hard and yes words have been change because of all these different churches. It unconceivable to me that people want to add or subtract and make of things that the Bible does not say at all! That include SDA no church or denomination is without an excuse!

The Bible says to the Law and to the Testimony if anybody, any church, any denominations or non-denominations speak against this Word-THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM! Them means more then one.

666 in Revelation always come up, but nobody reads what the text or verse first stated. "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding..." The Bible tells all about wisdom and understanding:

Daniel answered and said, BLESSED be THE NAME of ELAH forever and ever: for Wisdom and Might are HIS: And HE Changeth the times and the seasons: HE Removeth kings, and setteth up kings: HE Giveth Wisdom unto the wise, and Knowledge to them that know understanding: HE Revealeth the deep and secret things: HE Knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with HIM. Dan 2:20-22 

The Bible tells you clearly and simply take the wisdom and knowledge that YAHWEH'S gives. It is not the mark of the beast and that too need to simply understood. It not what you interpret it is what a known fact! We first need to look at the translation of of "a man," which means "countenance man-faced," not a man. The number Seven through out the Bible is important and means "sacred and complete." Then six is incomplete or not sacred. Man fell from complete to incomplete. Then in Rev 17:8: "the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." What does this mean? If you pray and ask YAHWEH for HIS wisdom and knowledge of understanding you will get it! The Bible says there is one faith and this is what we all should believe.

The principle teaching of the Catholic Church is what the Bible speaks on and not the people. We all should never love our church or anyone over truth. Why because no church or religion can save any of us, YAHSHUA saves!

Blessings! 

 

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

It is sad when you hear people look to leaders like Jan Marcussen without checking out what they say is what the Bible states.

Jan Marcussen a leader?  Please! Show me in the Bible where it states that it's okay slander another faith (the "Vicarivs Filii Dei" lie)?  All anyone needs to do is look at the verses in the Epistles of John that define the characteristics of antichrist.  The RCC and the Papacy meet none of them.  I'm not saying that thge RCC won't play a part in the end of time; but they won't be the main player.

Want to see who meets all the criteria of antichrist from John's epistles?  Check out islam.

[Lone Ranger]

14 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Want to see who meets all the criteria of antichrist from John's epistles?  Check out islam.

Interesting,

So all these years "we've" hated on the Catholics.....falsely.

This is a new idea. Please expand on it.

 

[JoeMo]

30 minutes ago, Lone Ranger said:

Please expand on it.

There are several long topics discussing Islam as the Beast/Antichrist.  For example, check out https://adventistan.com/forums/topic/66249-is-there-a-need-to-reconsider-the-aod/; and look for posts on Islam probably starting on page 5 or 6).

Also see https://adventistan.com/forums/topic/64428-who-are-the-seven-heads-of-revelation-17/; look for commentary by Thomas the Doubter, 8thdaypriest, and JoeMo.

You can also search for Islam at the top of the page.  Joel Richardson has many excellent books on the topic; as does his website https://joelstrumpet.com/.

 

[JoeMo]

13 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

There is no scripture that accuses Islam of being The or an antichrist..

Of course not - Islam did not exist at that time.  There is no scripture that accuses the RCC of being The or an antichrist either.  Since you pushed the point, I will quote the scriptures to which I was referring above:

"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22).  Does the RCC deny the Father and the Son? No.  Does Islam deny the Father and the Son?  Yes - Allah is god and he has no son.

"This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." (1 John 4:2-3)  Does the RCC deny that Jesus came in the flesh from God? No.  Does Islam? Yes.

"I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." (2 John 1:7)  Does the RCC deny that Jesus is God/Man?  No.  Does Islam? Yes!

Based on those 3 criteria, who best fits the role of Beast/Antichrist - the RCC or Islam?

I'm not saying Islam definitely is the the Beast/Antichrist; but it is a heck of a lot better candidate than the RCC.

[dgrimm60]

JOE MO

I AM not saying that ISLAM will not have a part in the end time events===but the book of DANIEL 

makes it very clear that the beast power is the papacy

dgrimm60

[Lone Ranger]

Given that SDA had its beginnings in an environment of Anti-Catholicism, and that Islam, though extant, played a very minor role in the thinking of the general populous, I can see where the founders would naturally interpret Dan/Rev in terms of those tangible entities they were aware of, ie the USA, Catholicism, the Pope, etc..

However, as time goes on the current SDA eschatological scenario becomes, IMO, less applicable to unfolding events.

[CoAspen]

Quote

Being a great Louis L'Amour fan he has an interesting read called "The Haunted Mesa" which involves a lot of these myths/legends/stories.

 

My Favorite, don't know how many times I have read that book. Wish it had been made into a film.

[stinsonmarri]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Jan Marcussen a leader?  Please! Show me in the Bible where it states that it's okay slander another faith (the "Vicarivs Filii Dei" lie)?  All anyone needs to do is look at the verses in the Epistles of John that define the characteristics of antichrist.  The RCC and the Papacy meet none of them.  I'm not saying that thge RCC won't play a part in the end of time; but they won't be the main player.

Want to see who meets all the criteria of antichrist from John's epistles?  Check out islam.

I think you miss understood me. I would not believe Marcussen or any preacher unless what he wrote is Bible base. I do not agree with his books. However, I do disagree with you base on the Bible and history concerning the identification of the Catholic Church. Islam is not depicted as a major empire in Daniel or Revelation. 

Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until THE ANCIENT of Days came, and Judgment was given to the saints of THE MOST HIGH; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.  Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against THE MOST HIGH, and shall wear out the saints of THE MOST HIGH, and think to change times and Laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. Dan 7:19-26 

These verses in Daniel are very clear and history agree with them. Here is where me and the SDA disagree and that this beast is the same beast in Revelation Chapter 13 and 17. Both Daniel and John saw the same beast over periods of time. Here are the proof; the forth beast was different then the other three beast. How clear is that! The other three beast were known Empires, but this beast was not it was different. It had on its head 10 horns, now Daniel did not discuss the seven heads because of the 10 horns and the stout one that would pluck up three! But it teeth of iron, nails of brass, it devour and brake things into pieces, it had feet that stamp. Haven't we heard of iron and brass in Chapter two? Of course so that means this beast consist of both Rome and Greece. Rome being the teeth makes sense:

Rome's success attracted the eyes of other powers in the region. ... Magnesia where the Romans under Scipio "Africanus" crushed the army of the Seleucid king ... World History/The Roman Empire

Then Greece being brass:

The Bronze Age, a period that lasted roughly three thousand years, saw major advances in social, economic, and technological advances that made Greece the hub of activity in the Mediterranean. Historians have identified three distinct civilizations to identify the people of the time. Ancient-Greece.org

Next this is very important the feet that stamps! No other animal that stamps and has feet but the bear. This means a part of Persia was in this beast. Daniel then see 10 horns and Nebuchadnezzar saw 10 toes it can be easy to see if they are the same. After Rome fell its empire was divided:

Edward Gibbon (1737 – 1794) stated the 10 German kingdoms of Europe were the Alemanni, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Vandals, the Suevi, the Visigoths, the Saxons, the Ostrogoths, the Lombards and the Heruli. Fall of the Roman Empire

Now again the Bible and history agrees. The Germans tribes took over Europe and now the little horn. If you notice the Bible is dealing with political powers in this beast which did make him different. But all of a sudden the little horn bring back a false religious power that also became political. It was so powerful that it pluck up three of the German kings. Does history proves this and who do it show who did this:

I would agree that the Vandals, Heruli, and Ostrogoth all disappeared (or were 'uprooted'), although I would argue that the Roman Empire didn't break into 10 kingdoms, just the Western half did. The eastern half continued as one political unit till 1453 (or at least 1204). You could of course also argue that all ten nations have since disappeared…In any case the Heruli, Vandals, and Ostrogoths were the first three tribes to disappear after the fall of the western empire and its division into Germanic kingdoms. Lost to the West: The Forgotten Byzantine Empire That Rescued Western Civilization by Lars Brownworth

The Ostrogoths were the last of the three to be destroyed. “In 535 Belisarius recovered Sicily, and in 536 all Italy south of Rome fell to him.  He entered Rome in December 536, withstanding the enemy's siege until it was raised in March 538. Encyclopedia Americana, vol., p. 502

The Church, with the shadow of the ancient authority behind it, was the only symbol left of imperial Rome, and its bishop, the Pope, was the city's only recourse for leadership and protection. . . .".The Roman Empire in Europe would be replaced by the spiritual empire, which came to be temporal as well, whose reigning seigneur was the bishop of Rome. "As for the Ostrogoths, with the defeat and dethronement of their leader and the destruction of their army, they passed out of Italian history; in fact, out of history altogether" (Katharine Scherman, The Birth of France: Warriors, Bishops, and Long-haired Kings, p. 164-165

History proves the Bible and as far as Islam, it moved into Spain 711 to 1492 AD and the Bible never mention their occupation. The Bible in John finishes what Daniel saw. Rev Chapter 13 provides a new period of time. Seven heads attach to the beast head. The beast was coming from out of the water with the seven heads already attach. We are dealing with the Empires that Daniel saw three and it has been proven that the fourth is the same beast in Revelation and it was different. The other four beast had to have a relation with YAHWEH'S people and had some false beliefs that were incorporated into the fourth beast. Two  prior to Neo-Babylon is Assyria and Egypt, then after Greece is Rome and yes Papal Rome. The fourth beast had a piece of the Empires that rule many other kingdoms and the above seven proves it. Also Revelation 17:9, 10 states this as a fact. The same seven heads found in Rev 13; then it shows that five had fallen: Assyria, Egypt, Neo-Babylon, Persia, Greece. The verse states one is and this was during the time of John which would be Pagan Rome. The other have a short time is Papal Rome who is also describe as a the whore. If you notice these verse are going back in time and when John see the whore riding on the beast is future. Why? Simple the heads are Empires and five were fallen and one is and the last would have a short time. This short one would come after John and Rome. However, John first see after she no longer is an empire, he see her only as a church. Going back Chapter 13:3, the beast is coming up or rising out of the sea and the seventh head had already almost killed the beast with its wound. But it did not die and the world will wonder after beast who's deadly wound was healed. The next period of time, shows that it is the whore, who have been leading the beast. Look at her description and his body is scarlet meaning he is full of evil. The cup in her hand, I provided before and it was one of the Pope that coined it, just like the Scriptures! The beast turns against the whore as the Chapter continues and like Daniel said she will come to her end just before YAHSHUA returns. 

As I stated before, the Catholic people and all other church folks many will be save. It is their belief system that comes up against YAHWEH; which includes the SDA. The Bible says a remnant who keeps all the Commandment and the Testimony will bring in the harvest of souls of all religions period! No I am not asking anyone to believe me, but check out what I present. Compare it with the Bible and history they agree. We all must make a choice and that is okay with me, I am human like everyone else. Look to the Bible in prayer and allow THE HOLY SPIRIT to guide you into truth! Keep me in prayer as I keep all of you!

Blessings!

[CoAspen]

Personally, I am not into any religious group being the 'antichrist' or any particular group of people. I think it is all a human construct, a blame game if you will. I think it is an individual  concept, one that could affect/be any human who denies Christ when given the opportunity to 'see' Him. 

[dgrimm60]

LONE RAANGER AND COASPEN

DURING THE CRUDSADES   Christians fought against Muslims===when OTTOMAN EMPIRE fell===Christians against Muslims===

so there could be another battle between Christians and Muslims at the end of time

but both read DAN CHAPTER 2 AND CHAPTER 7 AND CHAPTER 8 ===all these chapters talk about the 4 kingdoms in world 

history===it also talks about the papacy==and how they changes times and laws and killed GOD' true follows

now we all know that the main being behind all this is the DEVIL AND HIS DEMONS ===but they use people and rulers

and kingdoms to carry out the devil's plan   and in DAN Chapters 2==7==8 make is clear that this is the papacy

the main issue in the great battle is who will people worship and the devil is using the  Papacy and its teachings

to get people to worship the beast or Devil

so  it is the bible that is telling us about this not the S.D.A. CHURCH====if we as people on this earth want to

follow GOD THE FATHER==JESUS===HOLY SPIRIT then we need to study the bible and learn about

both the Devil's plan and GOD'S PLAN

dgrimm60

 

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Islam is not depicted as a major empire in Daniel or Revelation. 

Neither was Catholicism.  Would you deny that Islam is a major world empire now?  How many roving bands of fanatic Catholics are going around beheading people?  Who performs more terrorist acts - Catholics or Muslims?  Look at the evidence.

[dgrimm60]

JOEMO

when did the  ISLAM change times and  laws???====when did ISLAM  come out of the  PAGAN ROMAN EMPIRE???

these fact are out of the bible  and history ===again read DAN CHAP==2==7==8==

 

dgrimm60

[Gregory Matthews]

For whatever it is worth, Jan Marcussen is a current SDA clergy person who is active in an independent ministry and often reflects views toward the Roman Catholic Church that were held by our early leaders.  While I have not recently examined his views, I suspect that some of them may reflect   ignorance of current scholarship.  

For your interest, I will expound a bit on some  current scholarship related to 666 and Vicariius  Filli Dei.

It should be noted that the 666 number is closely related to Vicarious Filli Dei (VFD).   Absent the VFD, the  666 number is without support.

The only objective support for VFD is found in the so-called Donation of Constantine (DofC).  The DOC is actually a forgery that dates from the 8th century.  There is a secondary source that cites the VFD but is based upon the DofC.  In other words.  There is no objective support for the VFD outside of a document (DOC)  that is known to be a forgery.

Considerable SDA scholarship has been devoted to research on the VFD and has concluded as I have stated above.

As one example, at the behest of W. W. Prescott,  C. T. Everson visited the Lateran Museum in Rome and photographed the papal tiara.  Those photographs demonstrated that the tiara lacked the VFD inscription.

Later the SDA Church was planning the publication of a new edition of the book Daniel and Revelation.  A decision was made to include Everson's photograph in this new book.  At that time an A. O. Smith ordered an artist to fraudulently inscribe the VFD title on the photograph of the tiara.  fortunately the General Conference learned of this prior to publication and that forgery was not published.

NOTE:  This event happened some years ago.

Gentlepeople:  The God we worship is a God of truth.  He is not honored by dishonesty.

p277