666

[Lone Ranger]

7 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

so, does this mean you are saying no one can really know what truth is?

IMO

"TRUTH" or, in this case, the "trueness" of a statement, fact, or claim, falls on a continuum. On the one end is the solid empirical "facts" such as gravity and the temperature at which water freezes, and at the other end is the "Opinion" end, such as "There is a God" and "Billy only likes me because he wants to date my sister."

Where any particular assertion falls on the continuum depends on the discussion, the context, history, empirical aspects, and, literally, mood and time of day.

[dgrimm60]

LONE RAINGER

I want you to read this post very well because this will be the last post I do on this subject

from your own thinking that the words of the bible are just words====then the words in a history book or words

in a science book are just words=====so then any person reading those history books or science books 

can believe what every  they want to believe  ===this is what you are saying about the bible  ====so  any person can

believe any thing  or not believe any thing in these books because it is just their opinion of history and science

and  just words  in those books

dgrimm60

 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

so, does this mean you are saying no one can really know what truth is?

Daniel 12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." 

I personally believe "the time of the end" will be the final 42 months, during which the "two witnesses" will testify, while the trumpet judgments take place.  

[LifeHiscost]

After reading many of the posts to this thread, I can't help but consider these two Scriptures.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.Mathew 24

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luke 17

God is Love!~Jesus Saves! 

 

 

[Lone Ranger]

3 hours ago, dgrimm60 said:

LONE RAINGER

I want you to read this post very well because this will be the last post I do on this subject

 

That's probably a really good idea, and I love you very much, but it is evident that you are struggling in a topic well beyond your capacity to understand.

[8thdaypriest]

I am not against finding out one day, that the Roman church IS the Harlot.   I just believe we should consider all candidates.  If we focus too narrowly on one suspect (like the RCC),  we may miss the actual "harlot" of the prophecy.  We will miss the true fulfillment, and worse, be deceived during the worst time in history.     

Those who dismiss any other suspect,  because Ellen White identified the RCC as the Harlot,  are saying that Ellen White was infallible - so we we need look no further.  They usually make no other arguments to support their position, except to repeat EGW quotes.  This is not good Bible study.   

Quoting EGW does not convince anyone but other SDAs.  

Which is why I appreciated SM's review of some history.  

[8thdaypriest]

Beasts of Daniel Cpt 7 - concurrent - NOT sequential

Daniel 7:11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the (little) horn was speaking; I watched till the (terrible) beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 "As for the rest of the beasts, (lion, bear, leopard like) - they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time." (NKJ)

 

How could the ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece be "prolonged" - AFTER the "terrible" Beast is burned and destroyed (along with the little horn on that beast, and the Harlot riding that Beast)?  The BEAST is not destroyed until Christ returns!   Those kingdoms/empires are long gone (as kingdoms).  

The only way that all of those "kingdoms" could be "prolonged" for a period of time, is IF those kingdoms exist concurrently.  

We have a very good candidate for the "bear".  Russia.

If the order they appear in Cpt 7, is the same order they gained prominence militarily or economically on the world stage - leading up to the time of the end - then the order would be:

Lion with eagles wings:   Great Britain (lion symbol) + United States (eagles wings symbol)  NOTE:  wings will be "pulled off".  

Bear - Russia   (A threat currently, only because she has half the worlds nuclear warheads)

Leopard (with 4 heads and 4 wings)  What power is prominent on the world's stage?   China - who plan to surpass the US economically and militarily by 2030.  

Terrible BEAST  (a composite of the first 3, which suggests the TB may have taken over the others, incorporating their strengths into its own) .  When the TB is destroyed, it's power over the other 3 kingdoms is broken.   

 

Another possibility for the lion, is the nation of Israel.  The tribal symbol of Judah was a lion.   

 

I personally be the "season" and "time" - during which the first 3 beasts will "live"  -  will be the time period AFTER the 7th millennium, when Satan is loosed to once again "deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth".  

The nations of the Middle East are not seen as prominent in this scenario.   Possibly a ME war will reduce them to ruins, precluding any participation as great world powers at the time of the end.  One of the trumpet judgments does kill 1/3 of the worlds population - possibly a ME war.  ???

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

On 8/13/2018 at 6:14 PM, The Wanderer said:

The thing about Islam is a "human construct."

I agree; so I'm on a level playing field with church "doctrine".

[JoeMo]

8 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Because Islam is not a major world Empire if you really knew what the word mean. Religion does not make a world empire, political force does. However, religious ideology is behind the politic.

God does not define "nations" by man-made borders.  He defines them by people groups with a common ancestry and culture.  Christianity may not be a driving force in the culture of most Christian countries; but Islam IS the driving political and cultural force in Islamic countries. The 2 biggest Islamic power in the world are Muslim theocracies - Iran and Saudi Arabia.

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

so, does this mean you are saying no one can really know what truth is?

Concerning prophecy of future events - no.  Paul tells us that satan didn't even understand that Christ's death was His victory.  "Truth" in prophetic events will become that when the prophecies unfold.  Until, then, interpretations are just educated opinions.

[LifeHiscost]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

best post in this thread so far!

I watched the Holy Spirit song featured  at the last of your post and was blessed, remembering that in the last 6 months, peace doves have been showing up regularly in the neighborhood, giving me spiritual consolation of our Father's promises to those who will recognize  His care in these end times. Keep looking up.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!    

[Lone Ranger]

17 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

So, in this case, in speaking about daniel, chapter two, how then would you narrow down your definitions here?

I'm not sure I am clear about what you are asking. I assume you want to know if I think Dan. 2 is "true".

I currently believe that the "world history outline" laid out in Dan. 2 is correct. I am less certain about whether or not the entire story, ie: the king had a dream, he wanted his wise men to interpret it, but he wouldn't tell them the dream, etc., etc. is factually correct, ie: it actually happened THAT WAY.

IMO the jury is still out on the dating of Daniel. There are legitimate arguments on both sides of the question. This, of course, affects the "trueness" of the story.

At this time I believe that the version contained in modern Bibles is very likely a compilation of 1) facts from history and 2) early religious stories that pre-dated the author/compiler.

 

[Lone Ranger]

37 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

No. I wasnt asking if you believe Daniel 2, just asking how you would apply what you said in this post to come up with your best answer? You must have some way you use to even form your opinion? Thats what I was interested in! I am enjoying your posts, and cannot remember if I did already or not, but welcome to the forum.

Essentially what I believe about "Truth" (and as applied to Dan. 2) is that some parts are true, some parts are not true, and some are truer than others. I know, that doesn't help a bit.

And thank you for the welcome. We actually interacted over at another forum which shall remain nameless but is currently dominated by harsh, close-minded conservatives very dedicated to Kool-Aid. Which is why I do not participate there anymore.

[Lone Ranger]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Now I got it!

Maybe I can reframe my question to make this easier to understand:

When you read any passage out of the Bible, (assuming you do read it some) how do you approach it? Do you have specific guidelines, or is it kind of a case where "if its believable, then Ill believe it" situation? In other words, I think most of us do have some kind of criteria we go by to even just determine if a text or passage is worthy of any of our attention at all?

If you could come up with even one principle or guideline that you use; it might be fun/interesting to see what happens when we apply it to the reading of Daniel 2?

That's a really wide-ranging question, but I will do my best to clarify how I approach Scripture. Some points about me may assist understanding.

In no particular order; just as they come to mind:

1. I was born and raised SDA. As such I have a very well developed BS detector.

2. I have a very inquiring/questioning mind. This has been both a blessing and a curse.

3. I have a strong interest in all things religious.

4. My father was ultra-conservative, therefore I have a strong grounding in SDA orthodoxy.

5. I have a minor in Religion from CUC (now Burman)

6. I believe in continuums. As mentioned previously, there are degrees of "trueness." There are also degrees of inspiration. Some things are more inspired than others. Perhaps another way to look at that is that inspiration remains constant but authority or applicability to me varies.

7. I have a unique view of sin/salvation/the world/creation/etc./etc./… I developed it on my own and as far as I know no one else subscribes to it. This may be because I have a) not told anyone what it is because b) it is not fully developed. It is based on Scripture (especially the nature of sin) and science, specifically quantum cosmology.

8. I believe in the Nicene Creed. (ish)

9. When I approach Scripture, I assume it is the inspired word of God. I believe God is communicating with humanity in order to further the relationship. I believe the words of Scripture should be understood literally, just as they are written, unless there is a specific reason to understand it otherwise. I do not believe God speaks in riddles, or that Scripture is allegorical. Literally, it means what it says.

10. I believe in the guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.

11. This is more complicated than I thought...

[Gustave]

If we are to believe that the 2nd Coming of Christ will be like it was in the days of Noah & most people will be eating, drinking and getting married would that not seem to indicate things for most folks will be comfortable? 

[stinsonmarri]

On 8/14/2018 at 9:09 PM, JoeMo said:

God does not define "nations" by man-made borders.  He defines them by people groups with a common ancestry and culture.  Christianity may not be a driving force in the culture of most Christian countries; but Islam IS the driving political and cultural force in Islamic countries. The 2 biggest Islamic power in the world are Muslim theocracies - Iran and Saudi Arabia.

No god does not, but YAHWEH DOES! Now that's a mind binder Christianity are no different then Islam. Have you not read the history? Today its about Christianity in this country who suppose to be separate of religion and state. There has never been in this world history any empire or kingdom that religion has been separated from the state government. Every war that has been fought has been about my deity is more powerful than your deity. The entire world is base on some type of belief system! Have you actually check out Islam because you should! Religions cause war and prejudice more then anything! If the Evangelicals had their way they would persecute and force people of other religions to believe like they do or else!

However, let start with Ishmael:

And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow shot: for she said, let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. And ELOHIYM heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of ELOHIYM called to Hagar out of Heaven, and said unto her, what aileth thee, Hagar? Fear not; for ELOHIYM hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And ELOHIYM opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And ELOHIYM was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt. Gen 21:16-21 

 If you look on a map would see that the wilderness of Paran is near Egypt. Ishmael was not an Arab who are wandering nomadic tribes from both Shem and Cush originally. The Ishmaelites lived  in the wilderness and close to Edom, Esau children.

Paran (Heb pa'ran, most frequently the name of a desert region). The place name Elparan (Gen 14:6) no doubt is associated with the desert; this place is thought to be identical with Elath* by some scholars. The desert of Paran was the home of the Ishmaelites (Gen 21:21). It was, the itinerary according to P (cf. PENTATEUCH), reached by the Israelites after the desert of Sinai (Num 10:12), and they camped in this desert for some time (Num 10:12; 13:3, 26, mission and return of the scouts). In Deut 1:1 Paran is vaguely defined as a place in the desert. McKenzie, p. 637

Seir (Heb se'ir), a geographical name; Seir is associated with Esau* and Edom* and the association is expressed in a play on the words se'ar, "goat," and sa'ir, "hairy," in Gen 25:25; 27:11, 23. The name appears as the designation of a land, of a mountain . . . There is no doubt that the mountain is the chain which extends SW of the Dead Sea along the W side of the Arabah*, rising to an average height of 5000 ft. The name was later extended to the corresponding mountain chain on the E side of the Arabah. As a territorial designation the term is used more loosely of the region adjacent to the mountain chain, substantially identical with the territory of Edom ... Israelite tradition itself recognized that the claim of Edom to Seir and its settlement there were older than its own claim to Canaan. It was the region of Esau the brother of Jacob ... The mountain becomes a loose designation of its inhabitants as "the men of Seir or Mt Seir" (2 Ch 20:10, 22f; 25:11, 14); these must be the Edomites ... (McKenzie, pp. 783-784)

Then went Esau unto Ishmael, and took unto the wives which he had Mahalath the daughter of Ishmael Abraham's son, the sister of Nebajoth, to be his wife. Gen 28:9

Teman (Heb teman, "the south"), a place name; a region of Edom (Jer 49:7; Ezek 25:13; Amos 1:12; Oba 1: 9) mentioned with Dedan* (Ezek 25:13), famous for its wise men (Jer 49:7), the place from which YAHWEH appears (Hab 3:3; mentioned with Mt Paran*); genealogically reckoned a descendant of Esau and a son of Eliphaz (Gen 36:11, 15, 42; 1 Ch 1:36, 53). The situation is unknown except that it must be in the territory of Edom. Very frequently in the OT teman is used to signify simply "south" as a point of direction. (McKenzie, p. 872)

This leads us to our final problem. The error in Mohammed records is based primarily on the assumption that Ishmael settled in Mecca and married a Jurhumite woman. Since Ishmael did not settle in Mecca, but in Paran, and married an Egyptian this means that neither Kedar nor Nebaioth could have been the ancestor of the Meccan Arabs.

Isma'il b. Ibrahim begat twelve sons: Nabit the elder, Qaydhar, Adhbul, Mabsha, Misma, Mashi, Dimma, Adhr, Tayma, Yatur, Nabish, Qaydhuma. Their mother was Ra'la d. Mudad b. "Amr al-Jurhumi (II). Jurhum was the son of Yaqtan b. "Aybar b. Shalikh, and [Yaqtan was] Qahtan b. "Aybar b. Shalikh. According to report Isma'il lived 130 years, and when he died he was buried in the sacred precincts of the K'aba besides his mother Hagar. The Life of Muhammad, trans. Alfred Guillaume p. 3-4; bold

This is not true and their was a Jurhumite tribe but they came from Cush. Matter facts the Arab exited before Ishmael was even born. They came from both Cush and Shem.

 The Hebrew people were more intimately associated with the Hamitic races than with the descendants of Japheth.

Havilah. Aside from the Bible itself Havilah is not mentioned. Various Biblical statements indicate that it was an Arabic tribe not far from Palestine. Genesis 25:18 places Edom’s eastern border at Havilah, which was also the eastern limit of Saul’s campaign against the Amalekites (see 1 Sam. 15:7). For the antediluvian Havilah see on Gen. 2:11.

Sabtah. Some commentators have identified Sabtah with Sabota, the capital city of the south Arabic country of Hadhramaut. Others think it was the same as Ptolemy’s Saphtha on the Persian Gulf. Definite identification is impossible.

Raamah. Inasmuch as the Arabic tribes of Sheba and Dedan were originally located in southwestern Arabia, it is likely that the people of Raamah lived in the same region. Ezekiel mentions Raamah with Sheba, as trading incense, precious stones, and gold in the market places of Tyre. It is probably the tribe of the Rhammanites, located by the Roman geographer Strabo in southwestern Arabia. They are also referred to in a famous Arabian inscription that ascribes praise to the local deity for saving the Minaeans from attacks of Sheba and Haulan, on the way from Ma‛in to Raamah.

Sabtechah. Nothing further is known of this son or his descendants. Some have sought to identify their home with Samudake on the Persian Gulf. This is very doubtful, because the Cushite Arabians all seem to have settled in the western part of Arabia.

Sheba. The Sabaeans, descendants of Sheba, are well known both from the Bible and from other sources. In OT times Sheba appears as a wealthy trading nation. It is generally held that it was this country whose queen paid a state visit to Solomon. Later the Sabaeans became the most important people of southern Arabia, in the country now called Yemen. A wealth of inscriptions, the majority as yet unpublished, bears witness to their religion, their history, and the high level of their culture. Through the building of large dams and an extensive irrigation system the Sabaeans greatly increased the fertility and wealth of their country, to the extent that it became known in classical times as Arabia Felix, “Happy Arabia.” The neglect and eventual destruction of these dams brought the gradual eclipse of the Sabaean nation.

Dedan. This grandson of Cush became the ancestor of a South Arabic tribe of which nothing more is known. This tribe must not be confused with that descended from a grandson of Abraham by Keturah that lived at the southern border of Edom in northwestern Arabia (Gen. 25:3; 1 Chron. 1:32; Isa. 21:13; Jer. 25:23; 49:8; Eze. 25:13; 27:15, 20; 38:13). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary Vol. 1, p. 273-275

Some of the Syrian writers of the 5th century AD wrote about the Himyarites in southern Arabia as being both the Cushites and Ethiopians.  Johann Michaelis and Rosemuller applied the name Cush to both sides of the Red Sea, both Arabia and Africa. This basically agree with the history of the ancient Kingdom of Aksum, which occupied much of modern-day Eritrea, north-eastern Sudan and Yemen.

The Aksumite people represented a mix of Cushitic and Semitic speaking people in Ethiopia's Aksum proper. Wikipedia

Their country is regarded as being, most likely, the district of Saba, North of Adulis, on the west coast of the Red Sea. There is just a possibility that the Sabi River, stretching from the coast to the Zambesi and the Limpopo, which was utilized as a waterway by the states in that region, though, through silting, not suitable now, may contain a trace of the name, and perhaps testifies to still more southern extensions of the power and influence of the Sebaim. … The ruins of this tract are regarded as being the work of others than the black natives of the country. Dillmann, however, suggests (on Ge 10:7) that the people of Seba were another branch of the Cushites East of Napatha by the Arabian Sea, of which Strabo (xvi. 4, 8, 10) and Ptolemy (iv.7, 7)

I want to make it very clear that Ishmael had nothing to do with Islam nor Mohammed. Jurhumite tribe of his mother like I said were mix with Semitic and Cushite. However his father were mix with all three sons. The Persian took over this area and mix in during the Roman Empire.

Ishmael is considered the progenitor of the Arabs. Dagon (1981) has shown that this idea is an Islamic construction AND THAT NO CONNECTION BETWEEN ISHMAEL AND THE ARABS HAD EVER BEEN MADE IN THE PRE-ISLAMIC PERIOD. Already in the first Islamic century, however, Ishmael came to symbolize the Islamic Umma, and biblical passages about Ishmael were taken to refer to Muhammad, the Arabs, or the Muslim community. Camilla Adang, Muslim Writers on Judaism and the Hebrew Bible from Ibn Rabban to Ibn Hazm p. 147

According to Muslim tradition, Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba, the cube-like structure in the Sacred Mosque in Mecca. But outside these traditions there is absolutely no evidence for this claim - whether epigraphic, archaeological, or documentary. Indeed Snouck Hurgronje has shown that Muhammad invented the story to give his religion an Arabian origin and setting; with this brilliant improvisation Muhammad established the independence of his religion, at the same time incorporating into Islam the Kaaba with all its historical and religious associations for the Arabs. (Ibn Warraq, Why I Am Not A Muslim p. 131

"... there is no historical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael was ever in Mecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have to be explained how all memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which was not in its true Arabian form in Arabian inscriptions and written correctly with an initial consonant Y) came to be lost. The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek or Syriac sources." (Alfred Guillaume, Islam p. 61-62 Islamic Writer)

Finally about the Islamic religion; Islam is part of the same Abrahamic tradition as is Christianity. Key figures within the Bible — Abraham (Ibrahim), Moses (Musa), Mary (Maryam), and Jesus (Isa) among others — are all revered prophets in Islam. There is a chapter in the Quran about Mary and, within the Quran, Jesus is the only person who can perform miracles. Islam holds him to be God’s Messiah, Prophet, and Righteous Servant. I will provide next how close the Arab were with the Israelites and what Mohammed did like Constantine only later in history! Islam is not an old religion and it is a copy cat, you will be shock.

News today: Have you heard about all of the molestation of children in the Catholic Church in Philadelphia? The Attorney General found this going on for over 70 years. The Catholic Church has been covering it up! There is more! The people are not guilty, but the priests and nuns are who they believe in.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: Rev 17:4 

Blessings!

 

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, Gustave said:

If we are to believe that the 2nd Coming of Christ will be like it was in the days of Noah & most people will be eating, drinking and getting married would that not seem to indicate things for most folks will be comfortable? 

Says "in the days of" - which could be describing the time leading up to the final events.    If a trumpet judgment event kills 1/3 of the people on the planet,  THAT would likely wake up a few.   Course maybe the governments would have straightened that out, like some big natural disaster, and everyone just continues with their lives.  If it's due to a Middle East war, then many folks in the West and Far East,  will say "good riddance".   (I didn't say that everyone will, or that I would.) 

[stinsonmarri]

On 8/15/2018 at 9:09 PM, Lone Ranger said:

That's a really wide-ranging question, but I will do my best to clarify how I approach Scripture. Some points about me may assist understanding.

In no particular order; just as they come to mind:

1. I was born and raised SDA. As such I have a very well developed BS detector.

2. I have a very inquiring/questioning mind. This has been both a blessing and a curse.

3. I have a strong interest in all things religious.

4. My father was ultra-conservative, therefore I have a strong grounding in SDA orthodoxy.

5. I have a minor in Religion from CUC (now Burman)

6. I believe in continuums. As mentioned previously, there are degrees of "trueness." There are also degrees of inspiration. Some things are more inspired than others. Perhaps another way to look at that is that inspiration remains constant but authority or applicability to me varies.

7. "I have a unique view of sin/salvation/the world/creation/etc./etc./… I developed it on my own and as far as I know no one else subscribes to it. This may be because I have a) not told anyone what it is because b) it is not fully developed. It is based on Scripture (especially the nature of sin) and science, specifically quantum cosmology.

8. I believe in the Nicene Creed. (ish)

9. When I approach Scripture, I assume it is the inspired word of God. I believe God is communicating with humanity in order to further the relationship. I believe the words of Scripture should be understood literally, just as they are written, unless there is a specific reason to understand it otherwise. I do not believe God speaks in riddles, or that Scripture is allegorical. Literally, it means what it says.

10. I believe in the guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.

11. This is more complicated than I thought...

Lone Ranger I like to expound on each answer you provided separately:

1. "I was born and raised SDA." So was I but I did not disbelieved the Bible and question if they were speaking the truth. I found that SDA are bent on their traditions and doctrine instead of if it is what YAHWEH said. They are not proficient in the Hebrew language as they are in Greek. Why is that? 

"As such I have a very well developed BS detector." What's a bs (I think I know what this mean) detector?

2. "I have a very inquiring/questioning mind." There is nothing wrong with that, I have that too, but I research to find the answer and I inquire to get to the facts by checking the church and other resources. If you want to know that what the Bible said to do "prove all things!" The Bereans check out everything Paul said and if you notice there is no book on them to reprimand them.

"This has been both a blessing and a curse." It should never be a curse, because there is always an answer to the question.

3. "I have a strong interest in all things religious." Me too, and I study most religions and went to college both an SDA but others where I graduate as a Biblical historian.

4." My father was ultra-conservative, therefore I have a strong grounding in SDA orthodoxy." My mother was strict, but I find the church was the orthodox. My mother did not go alone with everything the church did because she saw them comprising and going against the Bible. She was a Bible worker and worked some of the well known ministers of the day. She brought many souls in the church, raising two separate church in the north and the south.

5. "I have a minor in Religion from CUC (now Burman)" I graduated from Ga State University and I minor in Anthropology and Specialize in Afrikan History also beside Biblical History!

6. "I believe in continuums. As mentioned previously, there are degrees of "trueness. There are also degrees of inspiration. Some things are more inspired than others. Perhaps another way to look at that is that inspiration remains constant but authority or applicability to me varies." True earthly authorities but not THE MOST HIGH; YAHWEH says HE changes not. All things must agree with the Law and the Testimony if not there is no light in any of it!

7. "I have a unique view of sin/salvation/the world/creation/etc./etc./… I developed it on my own and as far as I know no one else subscribes to it. This may be because I have a) not told anyone what it is because b) it is not fully developed. It is based on Scripture (especially the nature of sin) and science, specifically quantum cosmology." Most do not understand that Astronomy and Science is how YAHWEH made everything also HE gave man a lunar/solar calendar. If man had continue to follow that calendar even after the flood and follow when HE gave the season, we would not have the various religions we have today! The moon, sun and starts together deals with everything here on earth and in our immediate solar system. We can not navigate the sea without them as well as the land. The animals follow the lunar/solar calendar and it is all about science. Even when man turn to paganism they always turn to the celestial bodies for a reason. Sadly Satan had them to turn to the opposite of YAHWEH. Satan had man to call his term Zodiac instead of Constellation; Astrology instead of Astronomy. The Bible is full of Science have you read Job or read all of the flood story and right after?

8. "I believe in the Nicene Creed. (ish)" I believe in it too that it exist by Constantine, but not in its truth. It is totally against YAHWEH!

9. "When I approach Scripture, I assume it is the inspired word of God. I believe God is communicating with humanity in order to further the relationship. I believe the words of Scripture should be understood literally, just as they are written, unless there is a specific reason to understand it otherwise. I do not believe God speaks in riddles, or that Scripture is allegorical. Literally, it means what it says." Me too literally and it do not need to be interpreted, it needs to be understood. We need to follow the symbols and signs that it gives and also understand Paleo Hebrew and not this so call modern Hebrew. I also know that the NT was originally written by the disciples in Paleo Hebrew. The Pharisees destroyed these Text and the Greek manuscripts found have various meanings. Most don't know this but to me they should with all of technology we have today. It easy to find out the original meaning of both Paleo Hebrew and Greek words.

10. "I believe in the guidance of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth." AMEN!

11. "This is more complicated than I thought..." To me you did great!

Blessings!

[JoeMo]

On 8/15/2018 at 11:06 PM, stinsonmarri said:

Have you actually check out Islam because you should!

Oh; I have!

 

On 8/15/2018 at 11:06 PM, stinsonmarri said:

Ishmael was not an Arab

He was the Father of the Arabs.

You are obviously very well studied (and quite verbose).  I can't argue with what you say - there is too much there to digest in one sitting.  You must know that other historians and scholars dispute what you posted.

[JoeMo]

On 8/15/2018 at 10:28 PM, Gustave said:

If we are to believe that the 2nd Coming of Christ will be like it was in the days of Noah & most people will be eating, drinking and getting married would that not seem to indicate things for most folks will be comfortable? 

Pardon the weirdness of this post; but I believe that it will be like the days on Noah in the sense that the spirits of the Nephilim (hybrid human/angelic beings)  will be commandeering the earth again - just like they did before the flood.

"When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with[a] humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."

At the 5th trumpet, the "great abyss", "bottomless pit", or "abussos" is opened, and demons come out to torment men (See Rev. 9:1-11).  Just like these "men of renown" (renown for their ruthlessness) terrorized the earth in the days of Noah, will their spirits (the demons) be allowed to terrorize the earth once again at the end?

[Gustave]

54 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Pardon the weirdness of this post; but I believe that it will be like the days on Noah in the sense that the spirits of the Nephilim (hybrid human/angelic beings)  will be commandeering the earth again - just like they did before the flood.

"When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with[a] humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."

At the 5th trumpet, the "great abyss", "bottomless pit", or "abussos" is opened, and demons come out to torment men (See Rev. 9:1-11).  Just like these "men of renown" (renown for their ruthlessness) terrorized the earth in the days of Noah, will their spirits (the demons) be allowed to terrorize the earth once again at the end?

The book of Enoch speaks of the hybrids you referenced, I read the book several years ago and found it interesting to say the least. If I remember correctly the Ethiopian Orthodox consider the book of Enoch Scripture / but I am rusty on that tradition.

[stinsonmarri]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

He was the Father of the Arabs.

You are obviously very well studied (and quite verbose). 

Joe he was not an Arab. You also stated: "You are obviously very well studied (and quite verbose)." You might think I use more words then necessary; well I try to provide a lot of facts from various sources. I truly think that the SDA Commentaries are extremely well written with a lot of facts. I may not agree with everything but I truly respect their resources and how they obtained them. Since I was a young girl, they were the ones that I studied and they showed my artfully about geography and geology better then anything I have read. It was reading their science and geology about the earth age and their historical facts that they provided in the 50's that kept me in the faith and lead me to become a Biblical Historian. Historians are known to provide a lot of information so I am guilty. ☺️

Now back to Ishmael, if you would kindly have those who you mention, to show proof that they can trace anyone of Ishmael sons to any of the known Arab tribes of Shem and Cush. All the records found cannot locate any of Ishmael sons and ancestry so please if you have that information, I would love to have it. Remember Ishmael was part Hebrew because of Abraham and Egyptian because of Hagar. He also married an Egyptian who he had sons by her so I would like you to link that to Arabs?

Blessings!

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Joe he was not an Arab.

I did some broader research rather than what I just "learned" in church.  You may be correct.  At any rate, I stand down from my insistence that Ishmael was an Arab.  Thanks for the education.

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, Gustave said:

The book of Enoch speaks of the hybrids you referenced,

Some of what the Book of Enoch said (at least about those "sons of God" that married human women )is referenced directly in Jude 1:6:

" And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."  

It is also indirectly addressed in 2 Peter 2:4-5"

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;"

[Gustave]

33 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Some of what the Book of Enoch said (at least about those "sons of God" that married human women )is referenced directly in Jude 1:6:

" And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."  

It is also indirectly addressed in 2 Peter 2:4-5"

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;"

It appears that it is referenced.