A response to Dr. Ben.

May 18, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

"In regard to infallibility, I [EGW] never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning.--Letter 10, 1895.

Here's a whopper of a contradiction, that is, unless you understand the Bible first:

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 05-07-1901

-AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

-PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, [:"Red"]“This do, and thou shalt live.”[/] But to the disobedient He says, [:"Red"]“Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”[/] “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty."

Does this sound like salvation by law or not? Be honest, it does! But take a very good look what I have in bold, red lettering. Now compare it to another of her statements:

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 10-17-1907

-AT- The Two Covenants

-PR- 08

The terms of the "old covenant" were, [:"red"]Obey and live[/]: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but [:"red"]"cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." [/]Deut. 27:26.

Concluding points:

1] “This do, and thou shalt live" = "Obey and live"

2] “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them" = "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.

3] She called these demands "the terms of the "old covenant"!

From this alone EGW could be called a false teacher...a legalist, but I believe I understand her. The problem occurs when Adventists go to her writings first without a clear understanding of the gospel! When they do this they are faced with blatant contradictions like the one above.

Rob

May 18, 2006

Good stuff:

-BC- OHC

-TI- Our High Calling

-CN- 343

-CT- The Rags of Self-Righteousness

-PR- 03

-PG- 349

"Many are Laodiceans, living in a spiritual self-deception.

In what way?

[:"red"]They clothe themselves in the garments of their own righteousness[/], imagining themselves to be rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing, when they need daily to learn of Jesus, His meekness and lowliness."

-BC- 3SM

-TI- Selected Messages Book 3

-CN- 21

-CT- Ellen G. White Reports on the Minneapolis Conference

-PR- 01

-PG- 188

"The doctrine of grace and salvation through Jesus Christ is a mystery to a large share of those whose names are upon the church books. If Christ were upon the earth speaking to His people, He would reproach them for their slowness of comprehension. He would say to the slow and uncomprehending, “I have left in your possession truths which concern your salvation, of which you do not suspect the value.”

What greater deception can come upon human minds than confidence that they are right when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> , the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness. The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct. [3T, 252]

May 18, 2006

Hi Life,

you said,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

If no sins are present, their is no need for cleansing and we have no need for a Savior. We are a work in progress and have no inherent goodness. Only the indwelling Christ provides the righteousness adequate for holy living.

I am not saying that we will be sinless, but I am saying that we can be in love with our Father and Jesus and let His Spirit work in us where our loves is now His love, our thoughts are His thoughts, our actions are His actions. This is all possible. If Satan has the power to do it then certainly God can. As we live that life we will surely see our short comings and ask for forgiveness. It's like when you accidently offend someone you say sorry and asks to be forgiven and you are carefull not to do it again and in most cases will not do it again. Only with God you have the power of the Spirit in your temple to work this out as you and I humble ourselves out of love. Oercoming every known sin is possible, be we are so messed up by sin that we can't see our own sinfullness as God can. As a result He reveal this to us as He sees fit and in a way not to overwhelm us. When we see we then live the words of John,

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Notice the last part of verse 9? We see our sin, He forgives and then cleanses us. That means takes it away from us so that we no longer polute ourselves with that particular transgression.

God's love in us is so powerful and I think we have barely experienced it as a people because we are confused and afraid. Speaking of faith, many of us are living as Adam was when Christ came in the cool of the day searching for him and Eve. Hiding, ashamed and fearful. If this is not the case, then why are we not proclaiming His love for us from every location in the world, like no other people?

Claiming to be saved is great but living like we are is what seems to be missing, this is all I'm trying to say. Love for God cannot be hid, when we truly love God with all our being it is unnatural to keep that quiet in us.

In Christ and Christ in us changes our standing and our lives from unrightesous and evil (or selfish) to righteous and selfless. It is a process. 1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. That is Bible truth. Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Take care,

In Christ,

Norman

May 18, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I know the history of the movmement

and fascinating it is, too.

"No Man Knows My History" - Fawn Brodie

Another interesting read is

"A Gathering Of Saints" - Robert Lindsay

/Bevin

Having read their teachings, and having been 'taught' by the missionaries, as well as discussions with friends who believe in the religion, I have been puzzled as to how and why someone would choose to buy into all that stuff? I know that I should not judge, but really, it kinda jumped off the pages at me. It wouldn't seem to require a college education to sift through their material and discover the truth about it.

May 18, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Notice the last part of verse 9? We see our sin, He forgives and then cleanses us. That means takes it away from us so that we no longer polute ourselves with that particular transgression.

You are twisting, again. Read it again Norman! If we confess our SINS [plural]....Nothing of a particular sin that we are saved from....Please, be honest.

rob

May 18, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

If Satan has the power to do it then certainly God can.

Not necessarily true....Satan deceives...he forces and coerces. God doesn't.

May 18, 2006

One of my ambulance coworkers is a LDS (a "Mormon").

It seems to me it has a lot of the appeal of SDA'ism.

1. a very pleasant social life going

2. knowledge that makes them special

3. different enough from the rest of the world to create an us-them mentality

4. and forcing enough sacrifices that, to admit you are wrong requires the painful admission that the sacrifice was for naught - rather like Bush's justification for continuing in Iraq because otherwise the lives already lost would loose their value

/Bevin

May 18, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

2. knowledge that makes them special

3. different enough from the rest of the world to create an us-them mentality

Those items could well have described the 'brownshirts' in the Nazi party.

Unfortunately, I fear that too many times, some if not many Adventists seem to adopt a similar mentality. I have coined the term, 'cultural ethnocentrism' to describe it, in contrast with cultural relativism.

IMO that is why, so many times, it is difficult for 'newbies' to feel comfortable in an SDA church, or for the existing members to identify newbies as fellow believers. There seem to be, in addition to the formal baptismal vows, informal initiation 'rites' which a newbie must go through.

I would propose the adoption of a stance of a form of cultural relativism rather than ethnocentrism. From that perspective, we are all in the same boat, we seek common ground with people on the outside, and consider them, and their beliefs, to be as important and valuable as our own. None of that detracts from the reality of what is truth. (That is where reality parts company with the model.) It simply recognizes that we are all, or most of us at least, seekers who are wanting to know and follow what is right in the eyes of God.

Dave

May 18, 2006

Rob I am not twisting, you don't understand context and twisting what I said. Get that straight and you'll be able to understand Scripture. John says If "We" that is plural Confess "our" sins referring back to the "we", as we all have different "transgressions" as I put it, that we have to overcome. Yours may be different from mine. John is speaking to Christians and we can gain from what he wrote.

Then he continues in ch 2 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin,[singular] we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" He is telling us not to sin and that is particular and goes along with the context of what he's writing." 1John 2:1

I'm telling you Rob you have a challenge with context. You are context challenged. I don't mock, I truly believe this.

Norman

May 18, 2006

Rob,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Not necessarily true....Satan deceives...he forces and coerces. God doesn't.

That's why I said when we submit and permit. I was talking about the power to change character by the indwelling of either power. When possessed by demons we are changed into Satan's likeness. When possessed by the Spirit of God (by our free choice and willing consent) we are changed into the likeness of God. My main point was that if Satan can make a change in us surely all mighty God can do it.

Norman

May 18, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Rob I am not twisting, you don't understand context and twisting what I said. Get that straight and you'll be able to understand Scripture...in ch 2 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin,[singular] we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" He is telling us not to sin and that is particular and goes along with the context of what he's writing." 1John 2:1

I'm telling you Rob you have a challenge with context. You are context challenged. I don't mock, I truly believe this.

Norman

Norm...your jumping around again. Let me quote exactly the context of what you stated:

"....9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[:"Red"]Notice the last part of verse 9?[/] We see our sin, He forgives and then cleanses us. That means takes it away from us so that we no longer pollute ourselves with that particular transgression.

Please apologize for your misstatement!

May 19, 2006

Hi Rob

Look at what I said in the sentence that you quoted.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

We see our sin, He forgives and then cleanses us.

I could have put "when you see your sin'" but I didn't and I didn't use myself as an example either. I put "our sin" meaing we have our own sins and to include all of us because we all sin. He forgives us or me and cleanses us or me. I know what I was saying and wrote it that way for a reason

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

That means takes it away from us so that we no longer pollute ourselves with that particular transgression.

<hr /></blockquote> This is all singular and that is how I intended to write it.

I said what I did about you because I want you to see what you are doing and hopefully correct it. I don't try to be mean or mocking.

In Christ,

Norman

May 19, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Please, be honest.

rob

Despite the fact that I may understand some points of faith different than Norman, Robert, I have never seen him to be dishonest in his explanations. It would seem if Jesus revealed the most horrendous crime to be, at least to some extent, because of a lack of knowledge, if we are trying to be like Him we would do the same for our brothers in the faith.

[:"red"] "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." [/] Luke 23:34 KJV

[:"red"] "Love...is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances" [/] 1 Cor 13:7 AMP

Love the brotherhood!

May 19, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

sins referring back to the "we", >>as we all have different "transgressions"<< Norman

Re: >> << Perhaps, technically speaking, however the end results of all, lead to seperation from God.

[:"red"] "For whosoever keeps the Law [as a] whole but stumbles and offends in one [single instance] has become guilty of [breaking] all of it. " [/] James 2:10 AMP

[:"red"] "...for a root of all the evils is the love of money" [/] 1 Tim 6:10 YLT

May 19, 2006

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

"All"? Are you free from ALL sin - are you perfect, as God is perfect?

Verse 8 tells us we can't say that! So then, verse 9 is speaking of our position "in Christ". He justifies us by faith. DO you buy that?

Rob

May 19, 2006

Rob,

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

The problem you are having is with what John means when he uses the word righteousness. Does he mean rightesous just like Christ in perfection or does he mean right doing or does he mean belief? John answers your question.

1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

got to run, will follow up later.

In Christ,

Norman

May 19, 2006

Rob just have a minute,

To continue,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

"All"? Are you free from ALL sin - are you perfect, as God is perfect?

Isn't that what Jesus told us to be, Be ye perfect as you father in heaven is perfect? yes it is. So can I be like that? If Jesus commands me to then of course I can. Now look at this and think, whoa! How in the world can I do this? I look at context and context tells me I am to love as God loves, not to be loving people who love me in return.

Ok So now what's the context of 1 John? I'll have to explain later due to time, but He's not talking about absolute perfection like God is perfect. Just as he's not saying that, ("Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." 1 John 3:6) means that you will not sin. He is not saying that we wil not sin ever again right? So what is he saying?

We will not willfully continually sin is what he means. So when he says to these Christians who have already accepted Christ and are living in Christ, He will take away all unrightesouness, he means they will be forgiven, cleased in heart and the result of this loving act will remve the desire to sin again in these Christians.

Here's why I say that: 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Notice he starts by saying if we confess. This means we have to do something in order to get the results he is going to tell them about. Now we know this can't be talking about non Christians or else it would, do what to the Gospel? Make it into a repentance based salvation? Which wouild leave you asking what about the in Christ motif, right?

So he continues to say, (once we have confessed) He, Jesus is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (when we confess our individual particular or all of our sins) to forgive, cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Here again he's talking to the Christians.

Must stop time's up

In Christ,

Norman

May 19, 2006

Coninued,

Then in vs 2 he includes the whole world and no longer just the Christians.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins : and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Then as he continues he goes back to dealing with Christians as is noted by the beginning of the next few verses

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jo 2:7 Brethren,

1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children,

1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers,

1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world

So to say that John is referring to all being in Christ is not correct. Paul spekks about it but not John not here. You may try to say that he does but if you read and put things in context you can see that it is not so.

Norman

May 20, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Isn't that what Jesus told us to be, Be ye perfect as you father in heaven is perfect? yes it is. So can I be like that? If Jesus commands me to then of course I can.

You must understand the historical setting of any passage you are undertaking! Even more, you must understand the difference between the "Old Covenant" and the "New Covenant"!

If you understand the passage of Matthew 5:48 to mean you must be perfect as God is perfect, then my question to you is, "why aren't you perfect (sinless)?"

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Ok So now what's the context of 1 John? I'll have to explain later due to time, but He's not talking about absolute perfection like God is perfect.

How do you derive this from the passage?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

....the result of this [forgiven, cleansed in heart]...will remove the desire to sin again in these Christians.

You’re kidding? You are teaching "Holy flesh"....Ellen railed against this heresy in her day. Only a person with "Holy flesh" would have no sinful desires and temptations.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

So he continues to say, (once we have confessed) He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins....

The woman caught in adultery didn't "confess" her sin, yet Jesus said He didn't condemn her. Perhaps that incident helped her to see God's agape love and sometime later she repented.

The idea behind repentance is because we need Jesus to represent "us" in Himself. A self-righteous person isn't sinning, therefore he/she doesn't need Christ. That's the issue.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

"If" we sin? I'll be honest, I'm not sure how he is defining sin! According to the law anything outside, "you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself" is sin.

The essence of sin is self-seeking/self-love. EGW teaches this, as does the Bible. Here we are falling short (see Romans 3:23)

Take for John 15:13 – “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.”

Sounds marvelous, right? But pay attention to what John is saying: The greatest love humans can project is laying his/her life down for a friend.

Now listen to Paul: Romans 5:7 “Very rarely will anyone die for a just man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners [i.e., His enemies (see verse 10)], Christ died for us.

So for a Christian to give up his life for a friend falls short of the love Christ “demonstrated”, right?

We need to be able to think outside the box with the aid of the HS.

May 20, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

1 Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Here's the NASB: "The one who says he abides in Him [remains "in Christ" by faith - see John 15:4] ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked."

Hmmm..."in same manner"? John is tough....That's why I like Paul for he makes sense.

Well, the fact is I am not walking [living] as Christ lived. How did Christ live?

Christ "lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly given to the service of others.” [EGW]

If John is saying I must fully live that way then I can forget heaven. If you are honest you would have to say the same....So maybe John isn't talking of "absolute perfection" [perfect agape love], who knows?

Well...I just took a minute and read the context of John. It seems he's not talking of perfection, but rather of hate! Here's the context:

6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

How?

verse 9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.

May 20, 2006

Hi Rob,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok So now what's the context of 1 John? I'll have to explain later due to time, but He's not talking about absolute perfection like God is perfect.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you derive this from the passage?

I did that in the next post after the one you quoted this from.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....the result of this [forgiven, cleansed in heart]...will remove the desire to sin again in these Christians.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You’re kidding? You are teaching "Holy flesh"....Ellen railed against this heresy in her day. Only a person with "Holy flesh" would have no sinful desires and temptations.

Note the word I used was desire, not propensity. In other words when I have grieved God by my sin and I ask for forgiveness, He does forgive me and my heart is cleansed from guilt and my conscience is restored. I no longer want to do that which just caused grief to my Lord. That's what I meant by removing the desire to sin again.

We all go through it. Even when you say something that hurts someone and you see that it hurt them and you say, "Rob, I'm sorry for calling you context challenged, I see that it hurt you and that was not my intent, please for give me" Once you forgive me I feel good you feel good and I don't do it anymore, neither do I desire to do it again.

This is what I meant.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So he continues to say, (once we have confessed) He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The woman caught in adultery didn't "confess" her sin, yet Jesus said He didn't condemn her. Perhaps that incident helped her to see God's agape love and sometime later she repented.

The idea behind repentance is because we need Jesus to represent "us" in Himself. A self-righteous person isn't sinning, therefore he/she doesn't need Christ. That's the issue.

In all cases, its the goodness of God that leads us to repentance, whether it's before or after confession. I'm just repeating what John is saying. He is talking to Christians about the manner in which we are forgiven of the sins we have. He's continuing on with the thought from 1:8 where he tells us we all sin and now here's what youdo when you sin. So becuase of that he really isn't addressing a situation like Miss John 8.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Take for John 15:13 – “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.”

Sounds marvelous, right? But pay attention to what John is saying: The greatest love humans can project is laying his/her life down for a friend.

Now listen to Paul: Romans 5:7 “Very rarely will anyone die for a just man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners [i.e., His enemies (see verse 10)], Christ died for us.

So for a Christian to give up his life for a friend falls short of the love Christ “demonstrated”, right?

But you missed one important detail, Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Jesus tells them to love one another like I have loved you He said. Then in vs 13 He is describing that love and He is talking about Himself. Why do I say that because first He say love one another like I have loved you, then gives the method, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Note that He said Friends and not friend singular. He is saying to them I want you to love each other in this way. I am giving my life for you all, my friends (and the world). This is a greater love than that which you attribute to this verse. He's referring to a love that will die the second death. This is how they are to love one another, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Paul is using the normal thinking of a natural man in comparison to that of Christ to reveal the deep love of God. Then in Phil 2 He says, Phi 2:5 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

This is the mind that we are to have and it can only be in the child of God who is led by the indwelling Spirit of the Son of God.

In Christ,

Norman

May 20, 2006

Hey Rob,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Well...I just took a minute and read the context of John. It seems he's not talking of perfection, but rather of hate! Here's the context:

Great! I'm glad you saw that. So then would you say that that is a specific sin?

Norman

May 20, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

...I am giving my life for you all, my friends (and the world).

But "the world" is under Satan....The world hates Christ! Hence Christ experienced the 2nd death for His enemies. As far as Christ was concerned the hope of the resurrection was gone for His Father had abandoned Him. Christ was saying, "I love you my enemies more than I love Myself! I would rather you, my enemies, take My place in heaven." In other words Christ would have rather died eternally then have His enemies miss out on heaven....That's love!

Otherwise I see your point, but I see mine also.... Christ’s love is where we fall short (in perfection terms). Would you agree?

May 20, 2006

May 20, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Otherwise I see your point, but I see mine also.... Christ’s love is where we fall short (in perfection terms). Would you agree?

Norman

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