A response to Dr. Ben.

[John317]

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Were you raised in the church Robert?

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Yes...through the 8th grade, then I stopped going because of the terrible experiences from elementary school. In 1988 I joined the local SDA church....In 1997 I stopped after trying to reform the legalists....Old dogs don't learn new tricks very easily.

Rob

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In all due respect, I think that it's not a very good reason to stop attending a church simply because of some bad experiences in elementary school. I had some bad experiences too. That doesn't prove the church or school is bad. I had bad experiences in public schools as well. So what? That is simply part of growing up.

One should base one's beliefs on more solid ground, such as on objective truth, Bible doctrines, history, etc., and not on subjective things.

Maybe the "old dogs" know more than to learn the "new tricks." And just because the "trick" is new doesn't prove that it's worth learning anyway.

[Robert]

That church was destroying my faith in Christ instead of building it up in the gospel and the love God. No thanks!

Rob

[John317]

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IF she is a true prophet, and IF what she says is true, than not believing CAN be hazardous to ones spiritual health. Can't it?

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Yes, it certainly can be. We SDAs would be foolish indeed to ignore and disobey the writings of God's prophet, Ellen White.

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I say follow the Bible. IF you go through EGW to understand the Bible, well, then she becomes your pope!

Rob

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Ellen White herself says over and over again that the Bible alone is to be the "standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms" (GC 595). (Her view of the importance and place of the Bible is explained clearly in The Scriptures A Safeguard, Chapter 37, of the Great Controversy, as well as in the Introduction to that same book.)

Does that mean that we should ignore the writings of Ellen White? Of course not. That would be misunderstanding the relationship between the gift of prophecy and the Bible.

For a proper understanding of these matters, read the section "The Spirit of Prophecy and the Bible" on pages 227,228 in the book Seventh-day Adventists Believe...A Biblical Exposition of 27 Fundamental Doctrines. Also study closely the Comprehensive Index to the writings of Ellen White, Vol. 3, under Testimonies, #15, Relationship of the Testimonies to the Bible.

[Robert]

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Does that mean that we should ignore the writings of Ellen White? Of course not.

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Sure you can ignore Ellen White, just don't ignore your Bible.

[benherndon]

But....John317....you give us "oxymoron" statements. You say, rightly so, that EGW said to get all our doctrines and reforms from the Bible 'standard'...she also says to use the Bible ONLY for all doctrines and reforms.

Then, you tell us we must not reject what she wrote...and since I'm sure you are not giving permission to 'pick and choose' from her writings, you, perhaps inadvertently imply, that we must accept ALL she wrote....or, essentially so. Isn't that what you mean?

There is nothing since the Canon closed that has been written with superior or comparable authority than the Bible itself...and since Christianity did not exist in Old Testament days, ONLY the New Testament tells us authoritatively how to live the Christian life. The OT tells Jews how to live like a Jew under Old Testament 'authority'----which was the best they had, until Christ came. Careful open minded reading of the NT reveals that we have been fully informed by it and that we 'lack nothing' until He comes again. See 1Cor 1.... and search for other similar statements...there are several.

How can we follow the Bible AND ALSO follow EGW? ...or any other Biblical exegete or writer unless the Bible fully agrees...The Bible IS THE authority...nothing else, including the "SOP", IS AN AUTHORITY! There are more than an incidental few problems taking the SOP where it goes beyond, or takes away, or requires many proof texts to questionably support SOME SOP statements. And....Dan 8:14 is one, for sure, BECAUSE no other 'spiritually gifted' person agrees with our exegesis of that one text OTHER THAN some other SDAs. None other of the billion or more Christians using the Bible alone support our exegesis AND, furthermore, many, even most of our Bible teachers and professors 'have a serious problem' with our classical interpretation.

So, "OUT" with the oxymoron positions....the incompatable positions (there are some!) and----to the Bible only!.... and as far as Christianity is concerned, THE AUTHORITY is obviously the New Testament....right? If not right?...how so?

Let me make an observation that was not original with me but with which I agree 100%......It is: When one is seeking truth from the New Testament, one must put away all other 'authorities' including the "SOP" while one figures out what the New Testament is teaching us as Christians about the Christian "Way" to live.(Acts 24--"the Way")

I make another statement intended for the SDA who is seeking to know the New Testament: It is impossible for the vast majority of people to get the message of the New Testament until they have read from page 1 to the end 3-4 times without reading any other spiritual teacher or writer during that time, including the SOP. That includes any denominational literature of any type.

That's a bold statement but I've proven it to my own best objective satisfaction and observation.....try it, first, before you 'knock it'!

As Sr. White says, until you know the Bible FOR YOURSELF you will not be able to get much out of her writings....(she also says opposite things in various ways.)

...she also said that if Adventists had read and knew their Bibles she wouldn't have had to write the 'Testimonies'.

Think I misquote? Check it out on the EGW CD-ROM.

All this, again, tells me that EGW should be 'pastoral' instead of nearCanonical 'prophetic' which the latter, is indeed, the position of the church in practice today.

I don't know why saying all this should upset some of the brethren....After all she said all of our doctrines should stand the test of Scripture, or they should be changed. We have many things to learn and many many to unlearn, she said. OK, let's find out which ones need to be 'unlearned' and go do it! Its not rocket science, you know!

EGW is not the "best" expositor of the 'will' of God for us....the New Testament is the best...head and shoulders above anything else...the only real authority!

Ben

[David Koot]

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It is impossible for the vast majority of people to get the message of the New Testament until they have read from page 1 to the end 3-4 times without reading any other spiritual teacher or writer during that time, including the SOP. That includes any denominational literature of any type.

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It is impossible to accurately understand the New Testament without reference to the Old Testament. One must read them both, in order to get the true and complete meaning. That is why God gave them both. The two Testaments are depicted as the Two Witnesses. with the oil of the Holy Spirit flowing through them both. Zechariah's vision of the two Witnesses is briefly referenced in Rev; 15, I think it is, about the two Witnesses.

Dave

[benherndon]

I had observed and noted that SDAs have no trouble with the OT. They're pretty good at understanding the OT.. So-o-o, I guess I assumed they already knew and I have recently posted so, that the purpose of the OT was to prepare the way for the Lord to come to earth as Jesus Christ who 'gifts' us His forgiveness and salvation while we are yet 'sinners' in a sense of the word.

But I'll not get further into that now.

Thanks for reminding us that the OT was the preparation for the Lord to come and when He came, He and others revealed the NT 'scriptures' in real time when they were here.

Ben