Racist??

May 23, 2006

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Grrr ok take 3 in trying to get this program to post.

I agree with Lazarus in that every month is white history month. How many of you out there know that May is Asian/Pacific American history month? Or that Sept/Oct is Hispanic history month? And that November is American Indian history month? Lets push to have this history taught in schools too. How many of us have learn anything about the people we took this country from?

Again, try PBS if the local library is too difficult.

May 23, 2006

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Again, try PBS if the local library is too difficult.

Did you mean this remark for me? Because I find it a little offensive.

May 23, 2006

Hi Steve--thanks for your comments. I especially appreciate your answer to the board member's question. I doubt he would have been happy with it, but it does give me something in my arsenol in case I'm ever faced with the question again (in the very remote chance I choose to teach in an American school ever again). "Fairness" rather than "sameness"--yes, I do see the difference (though it does seem "unfair" that I'm asked the question and the Japanese woman interviewing for the same position is not).

About "seeing differences," I do have some further questions. I think I understand what you're saying about seeing your skin color along with height, etc, but what if I don't notice height differences, hair color differences, age differences, etc? I mean, I do understand that we're all different, but I don't yet understand how "seeing" that you are black or not influences how you and I interact. Please help me. If I have a friend who is black, how am I supposed to interact with him/her that acknowledges that I "see" this? Am I supposed to treat him/her "differently"? Isn't that being racist? That's what I truly don't get. If I don't treat him/her "differently" because of skin color, that's viewed often as being "insensitive." I can't win.

My parents raised me not to judge people by their skin color or place of birth. I grew up with friends who were black, mixed, Mexican, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Navajo, and of course white. I don't think I ever thought, okay, this is my XYZ friend, so I have to act this way with him/her and this is my ABC friend so I have to treat him/her differently. We were friends because we had similar likes and dislikes--there were plenty of white kids I wasn't close friends with because we didn't have anything in common. But I never, ever, categorized these friends by the color of their skin.

In your view, is this wrong? Because this is what I view as being "color blind." I am not trying to make all my friends of color "white" like me. I know what they look like--I "see" the color of their skin. I know we have similarities and differences. But to pin everything on the color of skin seems so superficial.

Then we come to having kids. My kids were born in HI, so were surrounded by Asians at the beginning. Then we moved to SW MI where they had African and Asian and mixed and white friends. If you had asked my sons the color of their skin, they would look down and say, Oh, kind of light brown, I guess. They had an African friend from Sabbath School, and the question my son asked was not about his skin but about his hair--why was his hair so curly while my son's was not. He didn't notice the skin color. Should I have pointed out the (obvious to me) skin color difference?

When we moved here to HK, we took our kids to "children's prayer meeting" where the Chinese leader loved the song "Jesus Loves the Little Children." She thought it was wonderful to have the kids stand up when their "color" was called. My boys' best friend, a Chinese girl, was quite miffed at having to stand up at "yellow" because she said, "I'm not yellow, I'm light brown." My boys agreed. Should we have reinforced the differences rather than the similarities? This same friend was born in Australia but is Chinese--my boys were quite upset that they could be born in the US and live in Hong Kong yet not be Chinese--race is a very tricky thing to explain!

Maybe these questions have no answers. I'm never sure what is the right thing to do or say. I am sure I have unconscious biases, but I consciously try not to act biased. But what is biased, what is racist, what is intolerance, what is bigotry? I don't always know. What I see as being openminded and openhearted may be viewed by someone else as racism. How can a white person in American society ever "get it right"?

(I truly hope no one is offended by my questions--if you are, I apologize in advance--I just feel stuck in the middle)

M

May 23, 2006

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the person who wrote it is a christian, an educator, and a thinker... so it is written from that perspective...

If it is written from a Christian prespective it will be filled with Bible quotes and use the reasoning from the Bible to draw its conclusions. That is what I want.

"Give me the Bible-holy message shining,

Thy light shall guide me in the narrow way.

Precept and promise, law and love combining,

'Til night shall vanish in eternal day."

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the color of my skin is a part of what makes me... me...

I can't say the same. My charachter is what makes me, me. I hope that it reflects the love of Christ. If I am crucified with Christ and therefore no longer live but It is Jesus Christ which lives in me, my entire identity will be wrapped up in He Who gave His life for me.

May 23, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

If it is written from a Christian prespective it will be filled with Bible quotes and use the reasoning from the Bible to draw its conclusions. That is what I want.

"Give me the Bible-holy message shining,

Thy light shall guide me in the narrow way.

Precept and promise, law and love combining,

'Til night shall vanish in eternal day."

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

the color of my skin is a part of what makes me... me...

I can't say the same. My charachter is what makes me, me. I hope that it reflects the love of Christ. If I am crucified with Christ and therefore no longer live but It is Jesus Christ which lives in me, my entire identity will be wrapped up in He Who gave His life for me.

As for the book recommended.... nope you won't find it filled with quotes from the bible, not that having bible quotes makes it a christian publication. It was a thought, and if you are not comfortable with that.... not a problem...as for the words to the song... I prefer to have Jesus... Give me Jesus.... but I digress...

as for your other comment...long before a person gets to know your character... they will see your characteristics...i.e. color, eyes, height, weight, etc....

May 23, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

About "seeing differences," I do have some further questions. I think I understand what you're saying about seeing your skin color along with height, etc, but what if I don't notice height differences, hair color differences, age differences, etc? I mean, I do understand that we're all different, but I don't yet understand how "seeing" that you are black or not influences how you and I interact. Please help me. If I have a friend who is black, how am I supposed to interact with him/her that acknowledges that I "see" this? Am I supposed to treat him/her "differently"? Isn't that being racist? That's what I truly don't get. If I don't treat him/her "differently" because of skin color, that's viewed often as being "insensitive." I can't win.

My parents raised me not to judge people by their skin color or place of birth. I grew up with friends who were black, mixed, Mexican, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Navajo, and of course white. I don't think I ever thought, okay, this is my XYZ friend, so I have to act this way with him/her and this is my ABC friend so I have to treat him/her differently. We were friends because we had similar likes and dislikes--there were plenty of white kids I wasn't close friends with because we didn't have anything in common. But I never, ever, categorized these friends by the color of their skin.

In your view, is this wrong? Because this is what I view as being "color blind." I am not trying to make all my friends of color "white" like me. I know what they look like--I "see" the color of their skin. I know we have similarities and differences. But to pin everything on the color of skin seems so superficial.

Then we come to having kids. My kids were born in HI, so were surrounded by Asians at the beginning. Then we moved to SW MI where they had African and Asian and mixed and white friends. If you had asked my sons the color of their skin, they would look down and say, Oh, kind of light brown, I guess. They had an African friend from Sabbath School, and the question my son asked was not about his skin but about his hair--why was his hair so curly while my son's was not. He didn't notice the skin color. Should I have pointed out the (obvious to me) skin color difference?

When we moved here to HK, we took our kids to "children's prayer meeting" where the Chinese leader loved the song "Jesus Loves the Little Children." She thought it was wonderful to have the kids stand up when their "color" was called. My boys' best friend, a Chinese girl, was quite miffed at having to stand up at "yellow" because she said, "I'm not yellow, I'm light brown." My boys agreed. Should we have reinforced the differences rather than the similarities? This same friend was born in Australia but is Chinese--my boys were quite upset that they could be born in the US and live in Hong Kong yet not be Chinese--race is a very tricky thing to explain!

Maybe these questions have no answers. I'm never sure what is the right thing to do or say. I am sure I have unconscious biases, but I consciously try not to act biased. But what is biased, what is racist, what is intolerance, what is bigotry? I don't always know. What I see as being openminded and openhearted may be viewed by someone else as racism. How can a white person in American society ever "get it right"?

(I truly hope no one is offended by my questions--if you are, I apologize in advance--I just feel stuck in the middle)

M

<hr /></blockquote>seeing the difference doesn't mean you interact differently, nor does it mean that you judge a person because of those differences.... we do interact differently though. Men interact differently with women than they do with men. People who have things in common will interact differently than those who do not.... The key is that we always treat people regardless of the differences with dignity and respect.

May 23, 2006

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Men interact differently with women than they do with men.

In general this seems to be true but when we get into specifics I find it is situation-driven more than sex-driven. For example I will interact with my wife, sisters, mother, etc in specific ways which I would with men but not other women. Passing gas is an example. I will think nothing of passing gas in front of my female family members or my guy friends but wouldn't do such in front of my female secretary or my male boss. So for me it is more situation-driven than sex-driven.

May 23, 2006

Re: "I will think nothing of passing gas in front of my female family members. . ."

Just what we all wanted (needed) to know. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/thankyousign.gif" alt="" />

Throughout the land of Club Adventist, there are probably 1,124 people who are visualing Shand passing gas in front of his wife.

The information that one learns by reading the posts in CA!

Shane, don't take this as a personal attack. I am literally laughing my head off. Thanks for the laugh.

May 23, 2006

I think the point is that claiming to be color-blind (or for that matter, really being - I'm not challenging what people have said) means that everyone will be treated the same... but people (including students) who have particular, specific needs that are related to their race/ethnicity/class/culture will sometimes need to be treated differently. I think the distinction between 'equal' and 'fair' is a very nice way of thinking about it. Two quick examples from my own teaching and research:

1. I try very hard to treat boys and girls the same in my science classroom, but observing other teachers and thinking about it made me more sensitive, and I realised that whenever there's an experiment in class or something to be done on the computer, the boys will tend to do it and the girls to be watching. Not necessarily because the girls don't want to participate, but because the boys will tend to automatically take charge. It takes action on the part of the teacher to make this situation fairer... and it's only being able to distinguish between boys and girls that makes that action possible. So what happens if the teacher is 'color-blind' and doesn't distinguish the black from the white students... but it just happens that the black students never get to actually conduct the experiements because the white students take charge? How can the teacher make this situation fairer if the distinction doesn't even exist for him/her?

2. I did an extensive study in Australia of the reasons why students who are wealthier tend to do well in physics, and there are a number of reasons, some related to what happens at school, but also some related to what happens at home. Students from lower socio-economic brackets just do face significant challenges that their wealthier counterparts don't. I agree with Shane that socio-economic status is a much better measure than race, but it's a simple fact that in America there's a strong correlation between race and wealth. There are exceptions but that's the general direction. So sometimes the race of a student can be used as a marker that alerts the teacher to some potential challenges that student might be facing, and specific kinds of support that might be needed.

There's no substitute for a sensitive, excellent teacher who comes to know each student very well, and knows the family situation and the needs of the student. But race (and yes, it's a slippery, complicated category system) can be one tool for making schooling fairer.

And a final point: even if the teacher claims to not code the students by race, the students will construe the teacher and his/her actions and attitudes in terms of race...

And the point after the final point:

Shane, your kids are adorable!

May 23, 2006

Just piggy-backing on Bravus's observations I, as a Pastor, relate to my asian members differently to my caribbean, white american members. I seek to be sensitive to their needs and expectations.

To see the differences is simply to be repectful to who they are and offer effective pastoral care. There's a good book by Dr Les Pollard "embracing diversity" that talks about diversity in the church from a pastoral/leadership perpective and suggests that understanding the differences between us is essential to effective leadership in a diverse church

May 23, 2006

Extension: there's no substitute, in any walk of life but especially in service, for getting to know people as people in all their complexity. Any external cue can only be a first approximation, and we should be prepared to be surprised.

May 23, 2006

Prepared to be surprised? Doesn't this mean that there is an initial assumption that whatever it is we'd be surprised about wouldn't happen naturally?

In other words, why should any of us be surprised at anything another human does--so long as the "doing" is something that humans (our race) is capable of doing?

May 23, 2006

I guess so... but I was making the point that we tend to make assumptions based on first impressions, and they're not always accurate. I don't really look much like a university professor - not sure what people assume when they first see me. But more than that, as a university professor and Christian in my early 40s, it might be a surprise that I like to listen to some of the more extreme kinds of heavy metal music. Just surprises, based on experience. And I do think it's a bit disingenuous to pretend that we don't make any assumptions at all about other people based on their appearance. Those assumptions might not be pejorative or racist, they might be very positive, but they're there.

May 23, 2006

No argument. Just an observation.

May 23, 2006

I would agree that people from the same socio-economic background have more in common however even that is an area of exploitation... historically the hype told to poor whites is this; "yes you are poor, and you may be stuck in a deadend job, but at least you are not ______ (fill in the blank, black, hispanic, etc)." The effect then is to prevent a natural coalition from forming, i.e. poor black folks and poor white folks uniting to demand action about issues that concern them....

May 23, 2006

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Prepared to be surprised? Doesn't this mean that there is an initial assumption that whatever it is we'd be surprised about wouldn't happen naturally?

In other words, why should any of us be surprised at anything another human does--so long as the "doing" is something that humans (our race) is capable of doing?

are we prepared to treat everyone fairly would be my question...

May 23, 2006

The issue of the thread is if it is racist for minority groups to form their own groups based on race.

The hispanic churches are formed on the basis of language and not race. One church I belonged to made me an elder even though I was white. I was also a member of a hispanic church that had blacks from Panama and the Dominican Republc in leadership. Spanish-speaking churches are formed to reach out to and nurish the spanish-speaking communities.

I have only been the member of one black church. As I said before, I absolutely loved it. It was alive, warm and extreamely active. However I did not see any whites, asians or hispanics in any leadership roles. I don't see why such churches need to be classified by race. Why not just call them celebration or charsmatic churches? Black people aren't the only Adventists that like to be charsmatic. That is my suggestion. The regional conferences should be transformed into celebration or chasmatic conferences and get rid of the race label.

May 23, 2006

before you say something is racist you must define the term... let me suggest a working definition.... there is prejudice, which could be defined as liking something or someone who has something in common with you. Then there is racism. Racism is the power to act on your prejudice. So as I see it, before something can be racist there must be two elements, prejudice, and power... If those two components are present then racism is possible...

If a person is prejudice but has no power to implement that prejudice they are not racist, they are just prejudiced. Example. I like weightlifting and sports cars. Now if I have a company, and before I hire anyone to work for me I ask them if they lift weights and/or own a sports car, and consequently only hire those that do, that would be a form of racism.... If however, I am prejudice towards those things, but don't care who I hire, then I am not exhibiting racism....

Now back to the church.... there are 13 million + members.... most of the adventist church is outside of North America (NAD has barely a million members) and are comprised of people of color.... would you know that from viewing our publications or press reports? If not why not?

May 23, 2006

Our media outlets are located in North America. That is why the church's diversity is not reflected in them. I do believe that is an issue that should be addressed but it is off the topic of this thread.

I understand a racist as one that makes decisions based on race. It is just that simple. If I decide not to by a certain type of car because too many Mexicans drive that kind, I have made a racist decision. If I decide not to buy my food from a certain store because it is owned by an asian, I have made a racist decision. If I decide not to vote for someone to be an elder because they are black, I have made a racist decision. If I decide not to attend campmeeting because the speaker is eskimo, I have made a racist decision. If I decide not to be someone's friend because they are native american, I have made a racist decision. If I decide that a job canidate is stupid becuase he is a southern white man, that is a racist decision.

May 23, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Our media outlets are located in North America. That is why the church's diversity is not reflected in them. I do believe that is an issue that should be addressed but it is off the topic of this thread.

I understand a racist as one that makes decisions based on race. It is just that simple. If I decide not to by a certain type of car because too many Mexicans drive that kind, I have made a racist decision. If I decide not to buy my food from a certain store because it is owned by an asian, I have made a racist decision. If I decide not to vote for someone to be an elder because they are black, I have made a racist decision. If I decide not to attend campmeeting because the speaker is eskimo, I have made a racist decision. If I decide not to be someone's friend because they are native american, I have made a racist decision. If I decide that a job canidate is stupid becuase he is a southern white man, that is a racist decision.

<hr /></blockquote>I disagree... you have made a prejudiced decision (a personal one). For it to be racist you would have to have the power to make others i.e. your company, your church, your city to make the same decision you have made.... all the other examples are ones of prejudiced, not one's of racism... No one is affected by that decision but you.... when racism is evident, people, communities, schools, institutions are affected...

If you decide not to hire a person because they are a southern white, then that is racist.... because you power to act on your prejudice....

May 23, 2006

Some people claim not to be sinners. How do they make such a claim? By changing the definition of sin. The same can be done for a racist. One can claim not to be a racist by coming up with a definition that doesn't fit them.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

May 23, 2006

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Some people claim not to be sinners. How do they make such a claim? By changing the definition of sin. The same can be done for a racist. One can claim not to be a racist by coming up with a definition that doesn't fit them.

A rose by any other name is still a rose.

<hr /></blockquote>you miss my point.... the term racist has been watered down to mean something that historically it did not mean..... to be a racist you have to have the ability to act on your prejudice... thus it is prejudice coupled with power... having preferences doesn't make you a racist, having the ability to implement those preferences does.... or to use your analogy.... it is not a sin to be tempted, it is a sin to act on that temptation...

May 24, 2006

Michelle,

I especially found your post not only honest but highly appealing. It seemed to reveal your humanity, with recognition there are some things not so easy to work out in the human psche, for the most part devoid of biases and self-justification.

I believe one of the primary reasons it appealed to me was that I found no hypocrisy in its' content, at least what I define as hypocrisy. That would be pretending that you are more or better than what you know yourself to be. That happens to be one of the attributes of or keys to the kingdom of God, at least as I understand it.

[:"red"] "Blessed is the man(woman) unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. [/] Psalm 32:2 KJV parenthesis mine LHC

[:"red"] " Yes, what joy for those

whose record the LORD has cleared of sin,

whose lives are lived in complete honesty!" [/]Psalm 32:2 NLT

Keep looking up!!

May 24, 2006

Re: your last post, Shane, you've managed to remind me that it is always unsafe to place any individual save Jesus on a pedestal above others. However I hope you haven't revealed a characteristic we are going to need to recognize when knowing we're going to come into your presence.

As to Gregory's response, I would like to agree it was more information than I needed to know, at least if I knew I would never be in close proximity to you. On the other hand, with Gregory I concur___ <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laughhard.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laughhard.gif" alt="" />

May 24, 2006

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Shane, your kids are adorable!

And I liked the rest of the post too, Bravus. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/icon_salut.gif" alt="" />

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