Does attending church threaten a man's masculinity

August 16, 2006

Thanks for your response to my question about John Eldridge and his Wild at Heart , Ed. I know that the men who watched it at our camp meeting enjoyed most of it too. John does make some very good points and the program is interesting. (what I saw of it).

August 16, 2006

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3.Even more interesting is the reaction of women to these messages, when I have presented them in slightly modified form to a mixed audience.

If anyone's still interested, I can finish this. If not, that's fine.

August 16, 2006

Of course! Go on!

August 16, 2006

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My personal reason - I can't think of a good reason to waste a perfectly wonderful morning sitting around doing nothing and being lectured (not debated) by people who are ignorant about topics that are irrelevant.

/Bevin

Is there a worship service that you have been to that did not have the above? If yes what was it like?

August 16, 2006

"Every man is right in his own eyes"

August 16, 2006

The notion that every man is right in his own eyes is creditable.

Each individual has his/her own life experiences that contribute to the substudy of gender issues. The claim that other's viewpoints are formed from ignorance is incredulous. No man or woman is ignorant of experience and study when relating his/her own opinion concerning understanding the sexes.

Let the reader and poster here recognize the value in others' life experiences and not ridicule or devalue the experience of others.

August 16, 2006

Amen, Cricket.

And yes, Ed, I'm also very interested and would like to see you continue.

August 16, 2006

I found a man song!! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Fortress 144 by Brian Doerksen, from the EXCELLENT "Today" CD. If you have never heard this album it is well worth it:

You are my god

You are my fortress

My loving god

My refuge and shield

You are my god

You are my stronghold

Delivering me from the father of lies

Part your heavens and come down

Touch the mountains so they burn with fire

Send forth lightning from on high

Scatter all who would oppose your light

All praise to you my rock

Who trains my hands for war

All praise to you my rock

Who trains my hands for war

You are my god

You are my fortress

My loving god

My refuge and shield

You are my god

You are my stronghold

Delivering me from the father of lies

Part your heavens and come down

Touch the mountains so they burn with fire

Send forth lightning from on high

Scatter all who would oppose your light

All praise to you my rock

Who trains my hands for war

All praise to you my rock

Who trains my hands for war

All praise to you my rock

Who trains my hands for war

All praise to you MY rock

Who trains my hands for war

Yeah!

Part your heavens and come down

Touch the mountains so they burn with fire (Strings starts)

Send forth lightning from on high

Scatter all who would oppose your light

All praise to you my rock

Who trains my hands for war

All praise to you my rock

Who trains my hands for war

All praise to you my rock

Who trains my hands for war

August 16, 2006

I don't believe the culture of masculine arrogance/dominance matches the characteristics needed for the Kingdom of God. I don't picture Jesus as a barbaric macho-man, watching-football-wars, drinking-beer-with-the-boys, guffawing, hand-smashing-hand-shaker, bloody-deer-killing, etc., kind of a person.

I don't believe there will be any of those macho-man kind of behaviors in the Kingdom. In the Kingdom, men won't be behaving like apes (just a figure of speech, indicating brutish violence, territorial aggression, or whatever).

If the churches seem to be women-dominated, maybe we need to come up with something else for men, within the context of what Jesus taught about the requirements of entering the Kingdom of God.

Encouraging church attendance shouldn't be our ultimate goal, really. It wasn't Jesus', was it? Maybe in the end we will see how nearly worthless, even harmful, church attendance was, in general.

I'm doing just fine without attending church on a regular basis. Not because of any masculine-identity thing: it's just a waste of time, really, for me. I'd rather be on the computer studying the Bible, searching for Bible-oriented web sites, or spending some time with my wife.

I'm sure many enjoy attending church, but it will never meet the needs of everyone that may be interested in the Kingdom of God.

August 16, 2006

Thanks for your input, brother Ed. We have come to similar conclusions in our ministry.

God created men to be dominant, and to love as He does (Ephesians 5:22-33). Dominance is a good thing if it is accompanied by the love of God. If it is accompanied by anger, it is a bad thing.

Our society is committing a number of crimes on people.

1) Men are being conditioned to be passive. This began in the late 50's and early 60's and continues till now. Men are portrayed as one who returns from works and looks for the remote control. He is uninvolved with the family and allows the wife to be disciplinarian. This places her into a position that she wasn't designed for, and frustrates her spirit.

2) Women are told by our culture that to have value they must look a certain way and have a career outside of the home. They are often conditioned by culture & advertising to cultivate an aggressiveness that they were not designed for either. The presence of this phenomenon lies at the root of what is termed the feminization of our churches (or matriarchies).

3) Our culture is dedicated to the loss of our children's innocence well before their time. This will damage their spirit, and often leads to choices opposed the law of God, which brings serious consequences into their lives. Related to #2 above, they are often tossed overboard like unwanted anchors in a sea of materialism so we can shout love to them by buying more things. Disillusionment results. The solution. Give your children a gift. Love your wife. Love the hearts of your children. They are growing up in a different world than we did, and they need us to help them to God.

sincerely,

gcw

August 17, 2006

Alien, I think Ed said 'aggression' (and we can get into fine distinctions between aggression and assertiveness, but the concept is the same), nothing about arrogance or violence. I would go further to argue that arrogance and violence are more likely to be evidence of/consequences of threatened and inadequate masculinity rather than of fulfilled, secure masculinity.

August 17, 2006

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"Every man is right in his own eyes"

I am painfully aware of my ability to make mistakes. I am also painfully aware of the ability of others to make mistakes. And I am also painfully aware that organizations, and especially churches, are woefully lax at admitting that they have made mistakes.

/Bevin

August 17, 2006

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I don't believe the culture of masculine arrogance/dominance matches the characteristics needed for the Kingdom of God. I don't picture Jesus as a barbaric macho-man, watching-football-wars, drinking-beer-with-the-boys, guffawing, hand-smashing-hand-shaker, bloody-deer-killing, etc., kind of a person.

I don't suppose anyone does. Except for, maybe, the footbll-watching. And a friend of mine assures me that the only truly manly sport is Australian rules football.

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I don't believe there will be any of those macho-man kind of behaviors in the Kingdom. In the Kingdom, men won't be behaving like apes (just a figure of speech, indicating brutish violence, territorial aggression, or whatever).

Real men don't behave that way now.

When I speak of aggression, I'm speaking of the drive to act physically, even in the sense of undertaking long journeys, to seek challenges ta make major alterations in the physical environment, to confront rather than avoid, even to war against the elements.

It's always been interesting to me to listen to teachers of young children, having done that quite a bit myself.

ONe thing really competent teachers all agree on-- boys are easier to handle than girls. At first I thought this might be just because I was also male, but many, many women teachers have assured me they have the same experience.

When boys don't get along, their tendency to aggression means they confront their differences directly, whether shouting or pushing and shoving.

Girls, by contrast, go in the bathroom and scheme to exclude another girl. As I said, I thought it was just that I couldn't go and shoo them out of the bathroom. But again, many women endorsed that exact phrase: They go in the bathroom and scheme.

Now, don't get confused. This isn't about right and wrong. Both behaviors are wrong. But the boys' approach is more aggressive, more action-oriented, more confrontational.

Of course, anyone can cite exceptions. But these broad trends hold true.

Now, the point about aggression is that it is neither right nor wrong. Sometimes Jesus was very aggressive, not only cleaning out the money changers, but read the context of the Sabbath miracles-- it's clear Jesus is seeking confrontation. On the other hand, when the Pharisees begin plotting, he begins speaking in parables, and avoids Jerusalem. Until his hour comes, and then he aggressively enters Jerusalem.

Please note. That's the whole point about the aggression of men, matched with their more linear approach to the world. Aggression is good and necessary. The important point is recognizing when and how to employ it. That's what the linear thinking is for-- to balance and channel the aggression.

As sociologists have noted, it takes a man to teach a boy how to be a man. In female headed households, the tendency is to produce "bullies or wimps." That is, your super macho, trash-talking, chest-pounding punk--OR--the weak, female-dependent, passive man. In other words, neither strong nor nurturing.

Earlier, Pam mentioned chivalry. "Chivalry" comes from the word for "horse" (cavalry, caballo,) and thus "Knight" (caballero, chevalier). This chivalric ideal-- and it is an ideal, seldom a reality-- depicts a rugged warrior on the one hand, but a reader of love poetry on the other. And it has ever been the truth that, if a man is not a warrior when necessary, there will be no love nest for poetry.

Real men embody both of these. They can be aggressive and protective when necessary, and can be warm an nurturing when appropriate.

The difficult part of being a man is dealing with the aggression: when and how to express it, when and how to channel it instead.

Please note: I am not talking about sin and righteousness, only about healthy manhood. Everybody must face the struggle with sin, and while the temptations are all the same at root, they express themselves differently in men and women.

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I'm doing just fine without attending church on a regular basis. Not because of any masculine-identity thing: it's just a waste of time, really, for me. I'd rather be on the computer studying the Bible, searching for Bible-oriented web sites, or spending some time with my wife.

As I said earlier, attending church doesn't threaten anyone's masculinity. It's just that the sub rosa hostility to men leads them to feel it's, well, a waste of time.

August 17, 2006

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It's just that the sub rosa hostility to men leads them to feel it's, well, a waste of time.

What is it that church does (or could do) that warrants 4 hours a week of my time and 10% of my money?

/Bevin

August 17, 2006

Church is where a person goes to worship God. Is that not enough reason to be there? Yes, you can meet him alone at any time but, church is a special place where people meet with God in His house.

"A member of a certain church, who previously had been attending services regularly, stopped going. After a few weeks, the pastor decided to visit him.

It was a chilly evening. The pastor found the man at home alone, sitting before a blazing fire. Guessing the reason for his pastors’ visit, the man welcomed him, led him to a comfortable chair near the fireplace and waited.

The pastor made himself at home but said nothing. In the grave silence, he contemplated the dance of the flames around the buring logs. After some minutes, the pastor took the fire tongs, carefully picked up a brightly burning ember and placed it to one side of the hearth all alone. Then he sat back in his chair, still silent. The host watched all this in quiet contemplation. As the one lone ember’s flame flickered and diminished, there was a momentary glow and then its fire was no more. Soon it was cold and dead.

Not a word had been spoken since the initial greeting. The pastor glanced at his watch and realized it was time to leave. He slowly stood up, picked up the cold, dead ember and placed it back in the middle of the fire. Immediately it began to glow, once more with the light and warmth of the burning coals around it.

As the pastor reached the door to leave, his host said with a tear running down his cheek, “Thank you so much for your visit and especially for the fiery sermon. I shall be back in church next Sabbath.”

Is that not enough of a reason to meet with God in His house each Sabbath?

August 17, 2006

That was the best sermon I've heard in awhile. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/thankyousign.gif" alt="" />

pkrause

August 18, 2006

If that story covered the whole issue, it would be excellent, but it doesn't.

There are several things going on in a traditional protestant church service, such as found in an SDA, Baptist, or Episcopalian church.

1) There are hymns - usually uplifting, I rarely find these an issue

2) There are prayers - these are all over the board, because some people use them as a chance to admonish and chastise and to push their own agenda's

3) There are children's stories - usually innocuous, sometimes excellent, and sometimes downright heathen

4) There are the sermons, presentations by other people such as the Health and Temperance Secretary, and the Sabbath/Sunday school classes - where you are expected to listen politely and give implicit consent to all kinds to rubbish presented by ignoramuses

5) There is the pleasant social chit-chat

and lastly

6) There is the confused misapplication of resources into some ill-conceived and ill-executed "community outreach/evangelism"

I like the worship - and I really dislike the incorrect information, analysis, and disorganized pretense at community outreach

Usually the nett result is worse than wasting the 4 hours, they are actually leave me worse in mood and attitude than when I started

So I stopped going, and did something useful = became a paramedic.

/Bevin

ps: Has anyone noticed that the decline in male attendence directly matches up to the decline in physical labor. If you are physically exhausted by the week, it is easy to sit in a pew and switch off for a few hours. If you have worked in an office with computers and paper all week, who wants to spend a glorious day sitting around inside?

August 18, 2006

Yes, pkrause the illustration is a very excellent one. I wish I could say that I wrote it. I didn't. It was sent to me.

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Yes, bevin, there will always be people in the world who have a critical spirit and critisize everything. I just feel so sorry for them. Not sure I would like to be like that. The world must be a horrible place to live.

August 18, 2006

Well, Jesus almost always told simple stories to the crowds, and not in a stuffy church year-after-year-after-year and so on until death-do-we-part. His was more of an open-air ministry, with no special music or anything of entertainment value except his stories, his listening audience limited by the distance his voice could carry and still be understood.

Of course Jesus' mission was somewhat different than ours, but we too must be people-fishers. One indicator of our love for God is our willingness to go fishing. Maybe one problem is that we don't have the skills we need to actually catch fish. Maybe we don't even want to go fishing and instead prefer to stay in our own comfortable space, reading, pew-parking, staring at a computer, etc.

I think one of the purposes of "church" should be to teach the people how to fish by giving fishing lessons. Not theory alone, but hands-on training to get us out of our comfortable spaces and try to change someone's life for the better. That should be our main goal, to help someone climb up out of the pit. It really sounds good unless our own life stinks.

That's probably what men need, more action, less talk. Not suits and ties, but clothes more suitable for going fishing. Not large crowds and spectacular organ music and pulpit-smashing sermons, but just a small, informal group of people interested in basic fishing.

Cold calls aren't an easy way to go fishing. First, we would need to pass out invitations. The invitations would explain what lies ahead for those who wish to join the Great Fishing Expedition. Prospective members of the fishing adventure need to understand that fishing isn't easy, and can be dangerous.

Fishing is a costly investment, requiring the sacrifice of everything unnecessary to the ultimate goal: catching more fish, of course.

But in the end, we are fish, too, some of us are the good ones, probably some of us are the bad ones. The good ones are kept, but the bad ones are thrown overboard.

August 18, 2006

I like your comments and parallels to the Life of Jesus, Aliensanctuary. We should all be fishers of men and so many times we miss the boat.

August 18, 2006

You're funny, but you're right.

August 18, 2006

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Yes, bevin, there will always be people in the world who have a critical spirit and critisize everything. I just feel so sorry for them. Not sure I would like to be like that.

You are demonstrating here my point above - it is very difficult for organizations, especially churches, to admit that they are wrong.

The claim in this case is "everyone should go to church, because everyone would benefit from it". You obviously do benefit from it, as does Ed. So go! But don't expect that everyone will benefit from the same service that you do, and don't tell everyone that they should go to such a service.

Alternatively, if you want everyone to go, provide some program that is beneficial for them to attend.

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The world must be a horrible place to live

Nope - the world is a usually a pleasant place to live in, especially if you avoid getting yourself into the places/positions that history shows have been unpleasant for no benefit.

Dealing with a car wreck or a heart attack is unpleasant, but beneficial.

Computer programming (my other job) is pleasant and beneficial.

For me, attending a traditional church service is unpleasant and unbeneficial - why do it?

/Bevin

August 18, 2006

August 18, 2006

Discussion, yes. Arguing, no. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

August 18, 2006

Discussion is what I have experienced with some Christians, including my wife.

We disagree, for instance, on the age of the earth. She understands that I have looked over the evidence and reached a decision, and does not accuse me of being evil because I think the evidence shows that the world is very old. I understand that she has looked over the evidence and decided it is too hard for her to understand and so has decided to go with a short age based on the Bible. Sometimes she will ask me to explain some of the evidence.

What happens at church is the Head Elder prays in the communion service prayer "Lord, there are people here who don't even believe in your Bible" - and I know he means me because the SS topic of the Quarter is Genesis. Why should I have to sit (or kneel) and quietly tolerate such deliberate assaults?

/Bevin

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