Does attending church threaten a man's masculinity

August 18, 2006

As a practicing alcoholic I couldn't get what religion had to offer. Even after I quit drinking, for years, I didn't get religion. However after going through the process of self-examination, confession, making ammnends and restitution I got to a state of humility where I was able to grasp a little of what religion had to offer.

When Jesus stated we have to be like children to gain the kingdom of heaven, I think he was driving at humility. We need not be know-it-alls. We need to be teachable. We need to be dependent on another (i.e. God) for guidence.

I believe without a doubt that everyone will benefit from most religions. Even if they be a false religions like Islam, Budhism or Hinduism, I believe a person will benefit from them. The problem is that a lot of people cannot grasp religion. It isn't the religion's fault but is due to the person's past experiences, prejudices, education, etc. Each of us needs to become like a child in order to grasp the most basic spiritual principles.

August 18, 2006

You are so right, Shane and you have said it very well.

August 19, 2006

An important part of Jesus' mission was to teach ignorant and selfish humans that they must turn away from evil practices and do good to one another, an important and necessary requirement for the next life. I don't recall reading anywhere that he said to create large religious organizations and build large buildings in order to hold large meetings to entertain large crowds in comfort. This tends to contradict his austere, self-sacrificing, open-air-meeting lifestyle.

Jesus' most important "sermons" were one-on-one, which makes a lot of sense. That should be our model, not the massive money-sucking bureaucracy who's goal is to crank out carbon-copy automatons, namely us, who joyfully send in more money to feed the hungry beast so it can crank out even more automatons. These automatons are programmed to spit out the official bureaucratic system of beliefs, sometimes crossing the thin line between truth and self-serving propaganda.

Of course, there probably should be some sort of centralization of thought if we all want to remain on the same page, belief-wise. I suppose literature could serve that function, but who says we all have to be on the same page?

What our beliefs are concerning the age of the Earth may not be nearly so important as our willingness to be friends to our neighbors and assist them in working out some of the problems in their daily lives, if they're interested in Biblical solutions.

Churches create an artificial environment of superficial or pseudo-friendship. We say the usual "Hi, how are you?" to all the people surrounding us but we cannot easily see their problems or sorrows or hopes. Mass-meetings are unlikely to ever achieve this level of interaction between members. That's why Jesus had private meetings with seekers of truth, so he could read their hearts and show them the way.

Maybe that's what we all need, close, personal interaction, not the impersonalization inherent in large meetings. The larger the group, the less likely we can voice our opinions or feelings or objections. We then go home dissatisfied, because we have not been affected on close personal level. We heard the words, but they flew out from the loud speakers into space over our heads, then vanished without a trace.

I think that's the key to success, not institutional success, but success in encouraging others to turn from evil and join God's Kingdom by interacting with them one-on-one. That's how we can serve God and hold our heads high when we meet him face to face.

Probably none of us have everything theologically correct, and we may all be in for a really big surprise if we live long enough to see some of the events unfold in Rev. We can just stick to Jesus' teachings and not spend too much time on the small stuff. We're unlikely to figure it out on our own, and anyway, our questions about these side issues will someday be answered.

August 19, 2006

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Cricket said:

To speak in generalities about one sex or another reflects only the speaker's experiences--not necessarily the combined life experiences of the total human population.

And in most cases, as well as experiences, a lot of opinionated conclusions as opposed to reality as it is in Christ. The faults or failures we see so much of in others, reflects to a large degree the disatisfaction of our inner soul's lack in the graces of Jesus, Whom I recall, only bombasted those who were involved in that which was ignorantly or deliberately opposed to the Lord's plan of salvation.

[:"red"] "Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great." [/] 2 Samuel 22:36 KJV

[:"red"] "You have also given me the shield of Your salvation,And Your right hand upholds me; And Your gentleness makes me great." [/] Psalm 18:35 NASB

by King David

[:"red"] ".....I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will." [/] Acts 13:22 KJV

August 19, 2006

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Stan Jensen said:

"Every man is right in his own eyes"

And sad to say, includes;

[:"red"] "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." [/]

Proverbs 14:12 KJV

August 19, 2006

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bevin said:

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"Every man is right in his own eyes"

I am painfully aware of my ability to make mistakes. I am also painfully aware of the ability of others to make mistakes. And I am also painfully aware that organizations, and especially churches, are woefully lax at admitting that they have made mistakes.

/Bevin

Bevin, I've often posted in answer to your comments in ways that may have raised your frustrations. Therefor it makes me very happy to agree heartily with your ability to spread the blame around, (of which I'm in agreement on) something that is an attribute reflective of a prophet highly admired by most, if not all, Seventh Day Adventists.

[:"red"] "O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.

O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;

Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation." [/] Daniel 9:18-21 KJV

Would that more people would believe the prayer of Daniel instead of believing he was only voicing platitudes, while it appears the more acceptable self-recognition seems to be;

[:"red"] "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican." [/] Luke 18:11 KJV

[:"red"] "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" [/] Matthew 16:6 KJV

If we each could recognize that we are personally responsible for the murder of the King of glory, we would probably cut a little more slack for our faulty brethren.

[:"red"] "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." [/]

James 2:13 NASB

August 19, 2006

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bevin said:

What is it that church does (or could do) that warrants 4 hours a week of my time and 10% of my money?

/Bevin

The fact that Jesus has made an appointment there, to meet with His people who are listening for His voice through His servants that have asked during the previous week to be used by the Holy Spirit to be God's spokespersons, especially since it appears often the Word is not a familiar place of hearing God speak.

[:"red"] "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." [/] Hebrews 10:25 KJV

[:"red"] " Without consultation, plans are frustrated,But with many counselors they succeed." [/] Proverbs 15:22 NASB

[:"red"] " Many plans are in a man's heart,But the counsel of the LORD will stand." [/] Proverbs 19:21 NASB

August 19, 2006

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Aliensanctuary said:

Well, Jesus almost always told simple stories to the crowds, and not in a stuffy church year-after-year-after-year

[:"red"] And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

[/] Luke 4:16 KJV

August 19, 2006

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darlene said:

Is that not enough of a reason to meet with God in His house each Sabbath?

Thank you, Darlene, for that profound reminder.

I assume there are some who do not gain the warmth from the particular body of believers where they have been wont to attend. Not that anyone asked me, but I wonder if they might be the warmth the church needs. It has been promised that what a man sows, he will also reap. Sow some warmth and be surprised at what is received in return.

Keep looking up!!

August 19, 2006

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Shane said:

Each of us needs to become like a child in order to grasp the most basic spiritual principles.

[:"red"] "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." [/] Matthew 18:3 NASB

August 19, 2006

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bevin said:

Why should I have to sit (or kneel) and quietly tolerate such deliberate assaults?

/Bevin

You don't have to, Bevin. God only asks us to give with a willing heart.It would seem to me to be the more apt thing to do, to go where we can hear Him speak to us.

I'm one of the more fortunate, I suppose, in that I ask to hear Him speak to me in the persons of His people. Very seldom have I been disappointed, and when I was, it was usually right after I had disappointed Him.

God even has a plan for the most flagrant abuser of His grace, not implying you are that person.

[:"red"] "It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.

You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.

In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,

I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." [/] 1 Corinthians 5:1-5

NASB

August 19, 2006

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olger said:

They are growing (living)up in a different world than we did,(were) and they need us to help them to God.

sincerely,

gcw

<hr /></blockquote> parenthesis in olgers quotes mine LHC

[:"red"] "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:" [/] Romans 5:20 KJV

August 19, 2006

If a person's heart is locked, going to church only frustrates them.

warm regards,

olger

August 19, 2006

We seem to have ventured away from masculinity and into general reasons for church attendance... albeit I guess church attendance on the part of men.

I can see the truth in the idea that "if you're not at all open to what's at church you won't 'get' what's going on there and it won't be meaningful to you' - but that perspective can tend to place all the blame on the individual, which leaves the church itself unchanged and unchallenged. No matter how dreadful - and indeed unChristian - a church is, someone who goes in with an open heart can probably still receive a blessing. But if we receive a blessing *in spite of* what happens at church rather than *because of* it, it seems to me there's room to do some work on the church...

People are people, in whatever walk of life. Prayer and church offers more opportunities for judgement and for projecting one's own issues onto others, but haven't you ever been in a meeting at work where you felt an assault on your diligence or competence in something that was said, and just had to quietly sit there and take it, even if it wasn't fair? Some people are weak and insecure and will put down others in the guise of concern for their moral health. Of course we should work with such people and help them grow, and perhaps take them out of leadership positions while they grow. But like virtually every human problem, the problem is humans...

August 20, 2006

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olger said:

If a person's heart is locked, going to church only frustrates them.

warm regards,

olger

Not sure just what you mean by "locked". However I do recognize the picture of Jesus knocking on the door of the heart and the knob to open the door is located on the inside.

This, I do not believe tells the full story of the salvation offered by Jesus to an unregenerate heart. While Jesus is a Gentleman and will not stay where He is not wanted, there is every reason to believe He stays in the heart till invited out, as opposed to not having the power to work for the profligate until invited in.

[:"red"] "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." [/] Romans 5:8 NASB

[:"red"] "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." [/] Romans 12:3 NASB

[:"red"] "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith ,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." [/] Gal 5:22,23 Bold mine LHC

August 20, 2006

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I can see the truth in the idea that "if you're not at all open to what's at church you won't 'get' what's going on there and it won't be meaningful to you' - but that perspective can tend to place all the blame on the individual, which leaves the church itself unchanged and unchallenged.

The church has some serious problems. In my experience, I found it easier to change myself than to change the church.

August 20, 2006

Hi LC. Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your question and it seems to center upon the salvation initiative of Christ. I agree that the first initiative has always been God's.

There is however a response potential embedded in our power of choice that God will not overrule. What am I saying?

I have a simple philosophy. I believe that each person is created with the ability to give and receive love. If we can't give love or respond to it there is a spiritual issue that is blocking our heart. When the issue is acknowledged and resolved biblically, that person is free to live from their heart. They can give & receive love. This makes relationships fun. This kind of person can forgive others, and be a blessing to others as God intended.

gcw

August 20, 2006

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Bravus said:

We seem to have ventured away from masculinity and into general reasons for church attendance...

I wonder if separating reasons for attending church into masculne and/or feminine is addressed in this Scripture?

[:"red"] "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." [/] Galatians 3:28 NASB

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But if we receive a blessing *in spite of* what happens at church rather than *because of* it, it seems to me there's room to do some work on the church...

It seems to me that unless there is flagrant abuse of personal freedom, recognized as a detriment to others, the best way to work on the church in need of correction is close inspection and correction of ourselves in the light of the Word. When we are satisfied that there is no sin of our own that could be a problem, there is no doubt we will have plenty of time for good works to influence others in the path of righteousness.

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...haven't you ever been in a meeting at work where you felt an assault on your diligence or competence in something that was said... even if it wasn't fair?

I believe so. However, though this was not always the way I approached it, I've learned to give serious consideration to whatever the assault involved, asking God to help me determine what was true of that which was thrust at me. If it was true, I made effort to change, depending on God's grace.

[:"red"] "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." [/] Jeremiah 13:23 KJV

If I was not convicted of the truth of the charge, I treated it like every other fairytale. The difficulty often lies within the human breast, that is too proud to admit there is anything that could be wrong with their own judgement.

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...Of course we should work with such people and help them grow, and perhaps take them out of leadership positions while they grow. But like virtually every human problem, the problem is humans...

The results of working with people who do not see that they need any help, is well chronicled in the Word, the most famous found in Rev 3.

[:"red"] 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. " [/] Rev 3:16-18 NASB

Keep looking up!!

August 20, 2006

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Shane said:

The church has some serious problems. In my experience, I found it easier to change myself than to change the church.

Au contrare, my brother, you are the church!

[:"red"] "...so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another." [/] Romans 12:5 NASB

August 20, 2006

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olger said:

They can give & receive love. This makes relationships fun. This kind of person can forgive others, and be a blessing to others as God intended.

gcw

We're on the same page.

[:"red"] "Your kingdom come Your will be done,On earth as it is in heaven." [/] Matthew 6:10 NASB

[:"red"] "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." [/] John 3:17 KJV

Shalom!!

August 20, 2006

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The church has some serious problems. In my experience, I found it easier to change myself than to change the church.

This is not just to you shane, but to the whole thread.

And if good men will not change the church, who will?

For better or for worse, the church is what we make of it. We vote on doctrines. We elect the leaders. We support == of do not support it-- with our time, our money, our sweat. If those, especially men, who see the needs do not change it, who will?

If I had not gone to great lengths to change my local church, my children would not now be significantly involved with the church; my grandchildren, if I had any now, would not be involved in the church. That's too high a price for me to pay. Indeed, it's a price I would be paying in the spiritual condition of others for whom I have great responsibility, so it would be doubly irresponsible.

I meet and speak to GenXers all the time who do not attend their local church, because the church cares more about its own comfort than about retaining its young adults. I said to a couple recently, "Don't give up on the church," and they replied, "We won't. Don't think we don't care just because we don't attend."

But they are drifting away, and inevitably so. They have real spiritual needs, and their local churches are saying, "Not here." So they will go where those needs are met. Their fathers go to the church; they see the need, but they don't want to make waves. In fact, if they did make waves, both local and conference leadership would come down on them. But they might keep their children.

I spent last evening in the company of my two daughters and their significant others (one's married, the other engaged). Both young men have reason to be upset with the church; both are enthusiastic member of our congregation. But we had to plant a church to keep them. The local congregations offer nothing these people want.

We've taken a lot of hits to do this. But if good men, men who see the needs, do not act, who will?

"All that is necessary for evil to prosper is that good men do nothing." Lord Acton

August 20, 2006

I agree Ed.

olger

August 20, 2006

Ed, you talk about the need for change and especially for the young adults but, you do not say what change is needed. Can you clarify?

August 20, 2006

Boy, oh boy. That would require an entire new thread, and perhaps more time than I can devote to it.

The simplest way to put it is the analogy of the sailboat. Sails and ballast. Sailboats need both sails for power and ballast for stability.

I have repeatedly said that I will never again be part of the leadership of any congregation (nor can I imagine any circumstances under which I would be any part) that does not put the 17-30 year-olds in charge of the worship service, and specially focusing on the ages of 17-23.

They provide the energy--the sails--of the ship. The older folks need to be involved, but less and less in charge. They provide the theological stability--the ballast. But they need to not confuse theology with methodology.

In short, it's easy to find the young people to infuse worship services with energy and immediacy, but it's almost impossible to find Boomers who can distinguish between theology and methodology.

Another short way of describing it is this. In most churches, when it comes to anything new or different in worship, the default position is "No." If you can somehow demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that the new idea will make things better rather than worse, then we will allow it.

A former pastor of one of our college churches described how it took him six months to get the board to approve removing one pew for one service, so that the college orchestra could play. And this for something so positive and obviously beneficial

In our church, the default is "Yes." If there's no obvious insult to God, we allow it. No doubt this will bring down a raft of criticism here on CA. But what it has done in our church plant is to provide numerous new ideas that deepen and enhance the experience. Nearly everyone--some of our members are young children--has repeatedly said that they can't bear to miss our service.

Let the deluge begin!

August 20, 2006

Ed, you'll get no disagreement from me with that post

/Bevin

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