WWJD [i]Differently?[/i]

[there buster]

In the Old Testament, God

• Destroyed the Earth, and many people, in a Flood
• Decreed capital punishment (Gen 9:6)
• Ordered the extermination of the Canaanites
• Ordered the grisly execution of Agag
• the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp.

What would Jesus have done differently?

And why?

[Gail]

Great question!

[John317]

In the Old Testament, God

• Destroyed the Earth, and many people, in a Flood
• Decreed capital punishment (Gen 9:6)
• Ordered the extermination of the Canaanites
• Ordered the grisly execution of Agag
• the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp.

What would Jesus have done differently?

And why?

Jesus wouldn't have done anything differently at that time and under those conditions. How do we know? Because it was the preincarnate Jesus Christ who did those things. (See John 3:58 and Exodus 3:14; 1 Cor. 10:4, 9; Rev. 19: 13-21; 22:13.) Jesus and His Father are one in purpose and character. If the Father had come to this earth, nothing would have been altered. There is no difference between Father and Son. As Jesus said, when we see Jesus we are looking at the Father. What God the Father is, the Word, Jesus Christ, is. ( See The New English Bible at John 1:1.)

Ellen White says in Patriarch and Prophets that Jesus was the Jehovah of the Old Testament. On page 373, it says, "He who proclaimed the law from Sinai, and delivered to Moses the precepts of the ritual law, is the same that spoke the Sermon on the Mount." The Bible supports that view.

The difference people think they see between Jesus and the Yahweh of the Old Testament has caused more than a few of them, such as Marcion and Origin, to get into all sorts heresies, or mistaken views. This perceived contradiction was largely reponsible for the New Testament heresy, Gnosticism, which posited that the God of the Old Testament was evil.

[John317]

What would Jesus have done differently?

And why?

I think the key to understanding why Jesus appeared to be different from the Yahweh of the Old Testament is found in verses like John 3:17. Jesus came not for the purpose of judging or condemning us but in order to die for our sins so that He could become our High Priest. Later He will come as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, but while on earth it was hard to tell that the babe in the manger was the same One who was also King.

Humanity needed that view of God as a baby in the manger but we need to grow up and see that it is not all there is to the Bible's picture of God. All of the other "pictures" are also true, including those in the Old Testament. They all serve God's purpose in bringing people back to trust in Him and to a saving relationship.

We make great mistakes when we don't consider all the roles Jesus Christ has taken in the great controversy between Himself and Satan. The Bible uses many metaphors to help us understand God's ultimate plan to bring us back to faith, and all of them are equally true. For example, God, or Jesus Christ, is all of these things: Prince of Peace, One Who Came To Bring Division, the One Who Will Send Angels To Pour Out the Wrath of God In the Seven Last Plagues, Shepherd, King, Judge, Lord, Creator, Everlasting Father, High Priest, Bloody Sacrifice, Son Of Man, Son of God, God With Us, Law Giver, Savior, Prophet, Yahweh, Babe in Swaddling Clothes Lying in a Box of Hay, God-Abandoned "Criminal" Nailed To A Tree, Dead Man in the Tomb, The Living God Resting in the Grave, Risen Savior, the Ruler With a Rod of Iron, The Expression of God, and many more.

If we emphasize one aspect of Jesus and forget the others, we are likely to end up with a wrong view of the Father and of Jesus, and that could even be deadly as far as our eternal salvation is concerned. On the other hand, if we take all of them into consideration in our view of God and of what God is doing in history, we will be more likely to have a greater understanding and appreciation of Him. Instead of being like a child who sees the man in his home simply in one dimension, we well be like adults who see our Father in terms that help us worship and obey Him in ways that truly honor Him because they will be based on mature, intelligent faith.

[John317]

PS. Having said all that, though, I really would love to read what lots of other people think about this great question that's been raised here.

[Robert]

Post deleted by Robert

[Robert]

Luke 9:51 And it came about, when the days were approaching for His ascension, that He [Jesus] resolutely set His face to go to Jerusalem; 52 and He sent messengers on ahead of Him. And they went, and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make arrangements for Him. 53 And they did not receive Him, because He was journeying with His face toward Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” 55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” And they went on to another village.

John 16:2...a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. [Why?] 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Jesus was the One who did or had these things done.

Remember? Before Abraham was, I AM

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.

There's a lot about Christ that we need to learn, we box Him into our thinking and it changes the total picture of love. One day we'll see Him and understand

Norman

[Robert]

Jesus was the One who did or had these things done.

Totally and emphatically disagree!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

I knew you'd say something like that. Let's take each incident at one time. I'll start with the flood.

but first,

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Jesus the Father and the Spirit are certainly not going to do things contrary to one another. Jesus was put in charge of the world, He created it and He was the one that caused the flood. It could not have been Satan He dies not have the power to destroy the world. If it was not Satan or Jesus then that leaves only God. If I use your understanding of things that would put Jesus against God the Father. That picture does not fit at all

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As the violence of the storm increased, trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. Above the roar of the tempest was heard the wailing of a people that had despised the authority of God. Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and desired them to live to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven. He now uttered imprecations against God, charging Him with injustice and cruelty. Many of the people, like Satan, blasphemed God, and had they been able, they would have torn Him from the throne of power. PP 99,100

It's clear that Satan could not have caused the flood.

That's one event.

Norman

[there buster]

Quote:

Totally and emphatically disagree!

non-responsive; question was:

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In the OT God:

* Destroyed the Earth, and many people, in a Flood

* Decreed capital punishment (Gen 9:6)

* Ordered the extermination of the Canaanites

* Ordered the grisly execution of Agag

* the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp.

What would Jesus have done differently?

And why?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

1Co 10:4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual rock following, and that Rock was Christ. 5 Yet God was not pleased with most of them, "for they were scattered in the deserted place." (Num. 14:16) 6 But these things became examples for us, so that we may not be lusters after evil, even as those indeed lusted. 7 Neither be idolaters, even as some of them, as it has been written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play." (Ex. 32:6) 8 Nor should we commit fornication, as some of them fornicated, and twenty three thousand fell in one day. 9 Neither test Christ, as some of them tried Him, and perished by serpents.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, his blood shall be shed by man. For He made man in the image of God.

Who said that?

It was Jesus.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

This work is of the LORD, Satan had no part in this.

2Ki 19:32 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shield, nor cast a bank against it. 33 By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the LORD. 34 For I will defend this city, to save it, for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake. 35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.

Jesus made a very powerful statement concerning Satan.

Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Luk 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

Think this through, Jesus is not only saying that He is not using the power of Satan but that he will not destroy his own kingdom. You must take that into consideration too.

I agree that there are times when God withdraws His Spirit from people when they reject Him. This is not the same thing. These Assyrians were mocking God and it was important for His glory that they not continue in what they were doing. They were a part of Satan's kingdom who were fighting against God's people. Jesus stood up and commanded this to take place. Otherwise you have Satan divided against himself.

Norman

[David Koot]

In the Old Testament, God

• Destroyed the Earth, and many people, in a Flood
• Decreed capital punishment (Gen 9:6)
• Ordered the extermination of the Canaanites
• Ordered the grisly execution of Agag
• the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp.

What would Jesus have done differently?

And why?

All those things, Jesus did. Jesus is Yahweh or 'Jehovah.'

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Jesus was the One who did or had these things done.

Totally and emphatically disagree!

OK, you disagree, but take a look at my two posts on this thread and tell us what exactly you disagree with there and why? Are you saying you do not agree that Jesus Christ is Yahweh?

Check out 1 Cor. 10:9, one of the strongest pieces of evidences of who the Bible says the Messiah is. The oldest Greek ms. of that text, dating from 200 AD, reads CHRISTOS, not KURIOS. Also the vast majority of Greek texts reads CHRISTOS. The reading of KURIOS is based on only three 4th and 5th century manuscripts. The point is that it was the preincarnate Jesus Christ who was leading the children of Israel in the wilderness and it was against Him that the people rebelled and Him Whom they tested. That is what the text is saying, there and in verse 4 of the same verse. When you put those verses with the several dozen or more verses found elsewhere that say the same thing, the evidence for Jesus's identity becomes overwhelming.

Yet Jesus does not force people's recognition of Him as God. That is why He presents the evidence in His word, gives us a choice, and sends the Holy Spirit to press the truth home. Jesus is Christ the Lord, Yahweh, God With Us. Yes, what's amazing is that it was God Himself who came and lived among us.

[Robert]

I knew you'd say something like that. Let's take each incident at one time. I'll start with the flood.

[Gerr]

Nothing different. The Jesus of the NT is the Jehovah of the OT.

The Jehovah of the OT that destroyed the earth with a Flood is the same Jesus that will one day destroy it (and renew it) again but this time with Fire.

Gerry

[D. Allan]

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PS. Having said all that, though, I really would love to read what lots of other people think about this great question that's been raised here.

The Old Testament exhibits a gross misunderstanding of God. At least according to present day understanding. The human conception of God grows, one would hope, as the human soul grows. It is extremely diffucult for people to abandon the old conceptions. As Wm James showed in his book on the varieties of religous experience, people want to graft the new onto the old. They feel safer this way. In Buddhism they say that you must kill the Buddha. In the Judeao-Christian tradition you could say one must abandon a human conception of God, for it prevents them from finding the 'correct' understanding (if there is such a thing since God is beyond the abilities of our poor minds to conceive of even imagine.)

~d.allan

[D. Allan]

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Did God personally execute the antediluvians by drowning,

I stand in agreement with my Old Testament History teacher at Emmanuel Missionary College. Way back in 1961 or thereabouts, as we old-timers say, Dr. Thiele insisted that God always used natural means. He did not cause the flood. It just happened. He did not part the waters of the Red Sea. It was shallow there at that time of year so that a stiff wind could render it passable, he said. See Dr. Thiele, I still remember!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

Quote:

Did God personally execute the antediluvians by drowning, or did they "run Him off," depriving themselves of His protection? There are clues that it is the latter:

Yes they rejected Him but I think you're missing the reason why He had to destroy them. It is because He blessed them so much and they rejected Him still and not only that but they became violent. The end result of not destroying them would be that they would destroy themselves and God's faithful.

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Job 22:15 Hast thou marked the old way which wicked men have trodden? 16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood: 17 Which said unto God, Depart from us: and what can the Almighty do for them? 18 Yet he filled their houses with good things.... KJV

Yet He filled their houses with good things until they ruined themselves and could not repent or even desire to come back to God. They were like those described in Matt and Rev.

Mat 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Satan has no control over time. Also Jesus said that Satan had nothing in Him. God will not work with Satan. Yes He lets some suffer the consequences of their own choices and lets Satan have them after they fully reject Him, but God will punish and destroy the wicked.

Here one in Rev.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy (God) wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Who is destroying the earth? Those who have rejected God forever and are now destroying the earth. They destroy the earth because they have rejected God. They are being controlled by Satan. So these have already been given over to Satan who is using them to destroy the earth. Now the angel says, of those who are Satan's captives and are destroying the earth, that God will destroy them who are destroying the earth.

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"For a mere moment I have forsaken you, But with great mercy I will gather you. With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you," Says the Lord, your Redeemer. "For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; For as I have sworn that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, So have I sworn that I would not be angry with you." (Isaiah 54:7-9)

Look at what it says just a little further in that chapter.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Also I think you missed who this chapter is talking about. Read it again, it's about Christ and His children but mainly a message for Christ and His mission of dying on the cross.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi D.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

It's right there in that verse. I will destroy man whom I have created. Did Satan create man? Not a chance! So God said I will destroy what I have created. So in like manner as God has created He says, He will destroy.

Satan feared for his own life during the flood so how in the world could he be the one destroying it?

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob this came to mind,

The soul that sinneth it shall die.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Here you have it, Satan can not destroy the soul, only God can do that.

Norman

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

In the Old Testament, God

• Destroyed the Earth, and many people, in a Flood
• Decreed capital punishment (Gen 9:6)
• Ordered the extermination of the Canaanites
• Ordered the grisly execution of Agag
• the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp.

What would Jesus have done differently?

And why?

I can't see the Jesus of the NT doing any of those things. I thought He was into saving people, not destroying them. This is confusing to me.

[D. Allan]

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It's right there in that verse. I will destroy man whom I have created.

I know you won't like my ideas, Norman, but here goes anyway. Who wrote that verse? Moses? Why did He blame God? It was a natural catastrophe not caused by God (as I see it). Neither did God cause hurricane Katrina which killed thousands of people. Neither did God cause that tsunami in the Indian ocean which killed many thousands of Indonesians. If Moses were still living to write up the story of these two events he probably would blame God for them also... unless of course his conception of God had changed from what it was over 2000 yrs. ago. I think it would have. God is alway the same, you may say, but I say that humans do change, their ideas can mature and come closer to reality, to 'truth.'

~d.allan