WWJD [i]Differently?[/i]

[Robert]

....The end result of not destroying them would be that they would destroy themselves and God's faithful.

So God wants to get them before they do themselves in? That sounds terrible!

As to destroying God's faithful, does it really matter since they have eternity before them? So they go to sleep; to them it's only a second.

Neither of these reasons justifying killing! You must remember that there were infants who drowned. It wasn't just "bad" adults.

[Robert]

Rob this came to mind,

The soul that sinneth it shall die.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Here you have it, Satan can not destroy the soul, only God can do that.

The soul means the person....The body is self-explanatory. All this means is that without God no one will come back after death. This is the 2nd death - the no hope of a resurrection death. No one has died the 2nd death except Christ.

[Robert]

I can't see the Jesus of the NT doing any of those things. I thought He was into saving people, not destroying them. This is confusing to me.

Okay...it's not bad being confused. In fact now you can study it out. Take a look at the following:

And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go” (Exodus 4:21).

God had promised to deliver Israel from their bondage, right? Why then would God harden Pharaoh’s heart so that Pharaoh would not let God's people go? Makes no sense!

But there's another verse that says, "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said . . . But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go (Exodus 8:14, 32).

Here's another one:

So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14).

Did God really kill Saul?

Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died (1 Chron. 10:4, 6).

No, God didn't kill Saul...Saul killed Saul. So then why does God say that He hardened Pharaoh’s heart when He didn't? Why did God say He killed Saul when Saul killed himself?

So when God says, “…I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth” I don’t believe it because it is evident from other Scripture that God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent because of human free will.

[Robert]

So when God says, “…I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth” I don’t believe it because it is evident from other Scripture that God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent because of human free will.

[there buster]

Despite Rob's apparently comprehensive knowledge of what God did not do, he still has not responded to the original question.

OK, you claim God did not destroy the 185,000 Assyrians, despite the unequivocal language of the Bible. You do not tell us what did happen, and more importantly what would Jesus have done differently.

If you ask us to disbelieve the clear reading of the text, what is the alternative that you think Jesus would have done?

[Robert]

OK, you claim God did not destroy the 185,000 Assyrians, despite the unequivocal language of the Bible. You do not tell us what did happen....

[Robert]

"Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?"

What happens when "God is not among us"?

Numbers 12:9 ...the anger of the Lord burned against them and He departed. 10 But when the cloud had withdrawn from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow....

[there buster]

Still not responsive:

What would Jesus do differently?

[David Koot]

Still not responsive:

What would Jesus do differently?

We have responded. Do you not agree with the responses?

[there buster]

No, David. You and others have said that God and Jesus are ONe (or words to that effect). This seems clear in Scripture.

You and others have said Jesus wouldn't do something else, that in effect He did what was done.

Robert keeps saying No, no, no. But he never says what Jesus would do instead.

So, it is to Robert, and any who agree with him, that I put the challenge. If they're going to say that the Bible doesn't mean what it clearly says, then they have an obligation to tell us what Jesus would have done instead.

Just saying "No" isn't an alternative.

[Robert]

Robert keeps saying No, no, no. But he never says what Jesus would do instead.

I can give you a clear NT answer. First you must read a bit of history. Read about the siege of Jerusalem by Titus. Terrible atrocities were done to God's people. Did Jesus do it?

Matt 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!"

What happened? The Spirit of God withdrew because the Jews were not willing to accept Christ. They even covered up the resurrection, which gave ample proof that Jesus was the Son of God. They brought destruction upon themselves because the rejected God in the form of Jesus Christ.

Jesus didn't do it, but since He is sovereign I am sure that He assumed the blame as He did much in the OT. Take for example the following quote:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Jesus knew that to withdraw from Jerusalem would be disastrous, yet He was forced to leave because God does not force Himself on those who rejected Him. Since Jesus as God is sovereign He assumes even the blame for what happened to Jerusalem.

Rob

[Robert]

"Jerusalem stumbled, and Judah is fallen . . . They declare their sin as Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to their soul! For they have brought evil upon themselves" (Isaiah 3:8,9).

"The punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, which was overthrown in a moment, with no hand to help her!" (Lamentations 4:6. See also Isaiah 1:9,10; Matthew 10:12-15; 11:23,24: Romans 9:29.)

Quote:

How can I give you up Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me. My sympathy is stirred. (Hosea 11:8)

Deuteronomy 29:23 and Genesis 14:2,8 give the names of all four cities destroyed when God poured fire upon the Cities of the Plain: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim. According to Hosea, then, these last two cities, and by implication, Sodom and Gomorrah with them, were handed over and given up to destruction.

Paul understood "the wrath of God" to mean His reluctant departure from those whose ways show loyalty to the kingdom of darkness. Paul in Romans 2 speaks of those whom God gave up "to vile passions. "God gave them over" to the natural and inevitable consequences of their behavior. Paul's remarks in Romans 2 address a problem dating "from the creation of the world," clearly including the era of the Cities of the Plain.

[there buster]

So, what would Jesus have done, instead of

• sending a world wide flood
  
• telling Noah to practice capital punishment
  
• Order the extermination of the Canaanites
  
• told Samuel to do instead of hacking Agag to death
  
• instead of killing the 185,000 Assyrians
  ?
  
  Not rambling dissertations, not wandering descriptions of irrelevant verses. . . .
  
  specifically, what would Jesus have done differently?
  
  

  
  
  Instead of cleansing the ancient world with water, Jesus would have ______________________?
  
  Instead of telling Noah to practice capital punishment, Jesus would have______________________?
  
  Instead of ordering the extermination of the Canaanites, Jesus would have _______________________?
  
  Instead of telling Samuel hack Agag to death, Jesus would have____________________?
  
  Instead of killing the 185,000 Assyrians, Jesus would have______________________?
  
  
  

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Norman

Rob this came to mind,

The soul that sinneth it shall die.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Here you have it, Satan can not destroy the soul, only God can do that.

The soul means the person....The body is self-explanatory. All this means is that without God no one will come back after death. This is the 2nd death - the no hope of a resurrection death. No one has died the 2nd death except Christ.

Quote:

The soul means the person

In this context that words actually translates as spirit or the breath (See the Greek) and then of course as you have noted the body is our flesh. Jesus says that if you're going to choose to be afraid of someone like the wolves in sheeps clothing, who can kill the body, you should rather choose to fear God who can destroy (consume) both the soul (spirit) and the body in hell.

Satan has no power to do this, God is the only one capable of doing this. "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev 20:9

Jesus said I and the Father are one. He also said "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:21

It will be a sad sad day when this happens. Jesus, the Father, the Spirit, the redeemed and all the unfallen universe will be in agreement with this destruction. God is finally meeting out the justice due to those who for so long perpetuated the lies of the devil and the selfishness that he introduced into the universe.

Satan cannot destroy soul (spirit), it is done by God. Whether it's Jesus or the Father or the Godhead, it doesn't matter they all three agree in one.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob,

Quote:

So God wants to get them before they do themselves in? That sounds terrible!

Yes, this way He can give them a chance at salvation, not willing that any should perish. He had to scatter those at the tower of Babel so they wouldn't end up being as wicked as those who were recently destroyed. He is not shortening their time, He's giving them more time. They would destroy themselves and God's children before time.

Just as Jesus did not let Himself get caught by the leaders of the Jews. He could have just said, well it doesn't matter when I die my death is going pay for the wages of sin, the sooner the better. No, He did not do this because God has a reason and a timetable that He goes by. So in the same way with the wicked, He destroys them when the times is according to His plan.

Also, He has the right to destroy those who are destroying the earth and His people.

Listen to Paul warning the Corinthians,

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple (church) of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Notice how the angel says that God is righteous for doing this. If He liet Satan do this then it would be Satan doing this righteous judgment. That just is not right.

Quote:

Neither of these reasons justifying killing! You must remember that there were infants who drowned. It wasn't just "bad" adults.

That's easily explained Rob,

Does God know who will be saved and who will be lost? Yes, and to our amazement we can trust Him and see taht none of those children would have been any different than their wicked parents. That's why He destroyed them. How do I know this?

Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?..... Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

All that were destroyed by the flood were wicked and if there were children, they would have grown to be as wicked if not worse than their parents.

God does not destroy the righteous with the wicked and Jesus did not tell Abraham otherwise in that exchange.

Norman

[Robert]

Satan cannot destroy soul (spirit), it is done by God. Whether it's Jesus or the Father or the Godhead, it doesn't matter they all three agree in one.

Let's say I get shot by a bad guy and die. If it wasn't for the promise of a resurrection then this guy that killed me killed more than just my body because the whole person dies at death.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

Quote:

Let's say I get shot by a bad guy and die. If it wasn't for the promise of a resurrection then this guy that killed me killed more than just my body because the whole person dies at death.

Quote:

because the whole person dies at death.

Not the same thing Rob, the soul of the believer sleeps until the resurrection. Jesus is talking about detroying both body and soul, not sleeping till the resurrection.

BTW I'm not sure if I mentioned this but I do not believe that all the death and destruction in the Bible is done by God. Satan does a lot of it once people step away from God's protection. And then God let's some of His children go get persecuted or killed when He's sees fit according to His plan.

Norman

[there buster]

It is now clear that Robert has no idea what Jesus would do differently. He only claims to know what God does NOT do.

Unfortunately, even if correct, such knowledge leaves the believer entirely without guidance.

Thanks to all, this has been very enlightening. I am happy to see very few believe in a one-dimensional, cardboard caricature of Jesus.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Did God personally execute the antediluvians by drowning,

I stand in agreement with my Old Testament History teacher at Emmanuel Missionary College. Way back in 1961 or thereabouts, as we old-timers say, Dr. Thiele insisted that God always used natural means. He did not cause the flood. It just happened. He did not part the waters of the Red Sea. It was shallow there at that time of year so that a stiff wind could render it passable, he said. See Dr. Thiele, I still remember!

If the Flood "just happened" without the hand of God in it, then why is it that after over 4,000 yrs it has not happened again? And the rainbow! Does it mean anything to you? It is a constant reminder that GOD will not bring again another Flood of the same proportions that destroyed the antediluvians.

Can't charge the Flood on the devil either. SOP says that the destruction was of such magnitude that even Satan himself feared for his own life!

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

It's right there in that verse. I will destroy man whom I have created.

I know you won't like my ideas, Norman, but here goes anyway. Who wrote that verse? Moses? Why did He blame God? It was a natural catastrophe not caused by God (as I see it). Neither did God cause hurricane Katrina which killed thousands of people. Neither did God cause that tsunami in the Indian ocean which killed many thousands of Indonesians. If Moses were still living to write up the story of these two events he probably would blame God for them also... unless of course his conception of God had changed from what it was over 2000 yrs. ago. I think it would have. God is alway the same, you may say, but I say that humans do change, their ideas can mature and come closer to reality, to 'truth.'

~d.allan

Soooooo, what you are saying is that John, who says, "God is love," is more mature and closer to reality than Moses with whom God says He talked to face to face 40 days & nights in one stretch?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: ichabod

In the Old Testament, God

• Destroyed the Earth, and many people, in a Flood
• Decreed capital punishment (Gen 9:6)
• Ordered the extermination of the Canaanites
• Ordered the grisly execution of Agag
• the angel of the LORD went out and put to death a hundred and eighty-five thousand men in the Assyrian camp.

What would Jesus have done differently?

And why?

I can't see the Jesus of the NT doing any of those things. I thought He was into saving people, not destroying them. This is confusing to me.

Pam, do you have children? How do you treat/relate yourself to a child? To a teen? To an adult? How about slaves? Uneducated vs educated?

By what method would a physician treat someone who is healthy and just going in for a check-up as opposed to someone who has cancer?

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, & forever.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Okay...it's not bad being confused. In fact now you can study it out. Take a look at the following:

And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go” (Exodus 4:21).

[color:blue]As I pointed out in another thread, whatever God does for us has positive and negative consequences - postive/blessing/good when we accept it, negative/curse/evil/bad when we reject it. By rejecting the message, Pharaoh hardened his heart. But there is also a sense in which God hardened his heart, i.e. He sent the message, the rejection of which led to a hardening of the heart.

God sends a message of health to His people. When accepted and followed, it leads to healthier and longer life; rejected, it leads to disease and death. Same goes for the Gospel. It is Good News to those who accept it, but BAD news to those who reject it.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Okay...it's not bad being confused. In fact now you can study it out. Take a look at the following:

And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go” (Exodus 4:21).

As I pointed out in another thread, whatever God does for us has positive and negative consequences - postive/blessing/good when we accept it, negative/curse/evil/bad when we reject it. By rejecting the message, Pharaoh hardened his heart. But there is also a sense in which God hardened his heart, i.e. He sent the message, the rejection of which led to a hardening of the heart.

God sends a message of health to His people. When accepted and followed, it leads to healthier and longer life; rejected, it leads to disease and death. Same goes for the Gospel. It is Good News to those who accept it, but BAD news to those who reject it.

Gerry

[Robert]

...the soul of the believer sleeps until the resurrection.

The souls of all men "sleep" because the Bible presents sleep as a metaphor since there will be a resurrection, both the 1st and 2nd....

If it weren't for Christ our 1st death would be our 2nd death. All men "sleep" metaphorically because all men will be raised from their graves. But in actuality all men are dead, body, soul and spirit. The only difference between the 1st and 2nd death is that there is a resurrection from the 1st death hence it is called a sleep, but the 2nd death is goodbye to life forever because there is no hope of a resurrection.

Rob

[Robert]

God sends a message of health to His people. When accepted and followed, it leads to healthier and longer life; rejected, it leads to disease and death.

God's says, "Eat right"...but many do not so God kills 'em? Is that your point?

God will never destroy anyone. Sin brings death and those who reject God bring evil upon themselves. God does not do evil.

IF it's wrong for me to kill, it's wrong for God to kill. If not God is the biggest hypocrite of all. He's no better than the politician who makes laws for the masses, but for himself he has a loophole.