WWJD [i]Differently?[/i]

[there buster]

Quote:

IF it's wrong for me to kill, it's wrong for God to kill. If not God is the biggest hypocrite of all. He's no better than the politician who makes laws for the masses, but for himself he has a loophole.

What's wrong for me is also wrong for God? Are you serious?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

HI Rob,

Quote:

The souls of all men "sleep" because the Bible presents sleep as a metaphor since there will be a resurrection, both the 1st and 2nd....

Yes I know this, I was making a point.

got to go to prayer meeting,

Norman

[Robert]

Quote:

IF it's wrong for me to kill, it's wrong for God to kill. If not God is the biggest hypocrite of all. He's no better than the politician who makes laws for the masses, but for himself he has a loophole.

What's wrong for me is also wrong for God? Are you serious?

Sin is sin....

[Robert]

Despite the seemingly clear way in which Scripture presents Him, the traditional view of Christianity's God is heavy with ethical problems that have puzzled reasonable men and women from time immemorial. As long as humans have reasoned on the subject of God, they have wondered about His destructive side. Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, eternal hell fire. . . . How can a God who punishes so cruelly also say: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?" "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? . . . My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred." "My heart sobs like a flute for Moab, sobs like a flute for the men of Kirheres; that accumulated treasure all lost" (Ezekiel 33:11; Hosea 11:8; Jeremiah 48:36, JB). Would not humans manifesting this personality split be considered psychotic?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

Quote:

How can a God who punishes so cruelly also say:

This is where you are going astray. God does not punish with cruelty when He meets out judgment. That is a human assumption that we can easily make. We see through a "glass, darkly" in other words our ideas of God are darkened by the sin and evil that's been handed down to us, that we have partaken in, that is around us and that we are tempted with. So when God does something like, meet out judgment, we tend to look at it in a dark or evil way and say, no God can't be this way.

It is only because we do not understand Him and His justice that we see Him in this lack of light. (darkly)

God says, "Do not sin or you sill die." So we have sinned and do sin, therefore we earn death. Jesus came here to die for our sins among other things. So no human needs to die for sin. But we know that not all will accept His gift of forgiveness to start with and therefore none of His completed and completing work can take place in them.

They reject the Gift of God and that is what they will be punished for. Paul says God has the right to do with His creation as He chooses and who are we to question Him. Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

He is righteous and His judgments are righteous, Rev 16:7 "And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments."

True judgments have nothing to do with the devil, righteous judgments have nothing to do with the devil, they originate from God for a purpose. God's judgments, we can trust are righteous and true. We must step back from this and let Him be God this is not our domain and we know little about it.

Quote:

Would not humans manifesting this personality split be considered psychotic?

Maybe. When God says do not lie or you will die, He has the right to decided when the guilty dies. Ananias and Sapphira died instantly, others have not died instantly but their sins will earn their wages, if they reject the Gift. Death first and destruction second. God is the only One that can do this.

The point is, if we do something that God says don't or you will die and we do it and He destroys us, who is to blame? If you take you motorcycle and break the speed limit and become suicidal and crash into a wall. Two things happen, one you will suffer the consequences of your disobedience and two you will be so badly damaged physically that it will not be possible to save you. Therefore something must be done to end your painful and hopeless life. (no hope ever of recovery because the damage is way too bad) This is what God or Jesus will do, both are One with the Spirit and the outcome will not change, what One does they all do.

Quote:

Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?"

There it is: it's our own fault if we die if we don't turn from our evil ways.

God is looking for a heart that is devoted to Him in love, truth and Spirit. He's not looking for absolute perfection but rather devotion to the point where we'd rather choose to die than to choose to believe the lies about Him and sin.

Norman

[there buster]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted By: ichabod

Quote:

IF it's wrong for me to kill, it's wrong for God to kill. If not God is the biggest hypocrite of all. He's no better than the politician who makes laws for the masses, but for himself he has a loophole.

What's wrong for me is also wrong for God? Are you serious?

Sin is sin....

I want to be absolutely unambiguous about this.

NO matter what I put in this blank, it would be true:

____________is wrong for me, therefore ______________ is also wrong for God.

Is that your position?

[Robert]

This is where you are going astray. God does not punish with cruelty when He meets out judgment. That is a human assumption.... Norman

-BC- EW

-TI- Early Writings of Ellen G. White

-CN- 3

-CT- Spiritual Gifts

-PR- 01

-PG- 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained.

[Robert]

I want to be absolutely unambiguous about this.

NO matter what I put in this blank, it would be true:

____________is wrong for me, therefore ______________ is also wrong for God.

Is that your position?

True: "Hating" is wrong for me, therefore "hating" is also wrong for God.

But God says, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

False: "Physical adultery" is wrong for me, therefore "physical adultery" is also wrong for God.

Why? God is spirit. He is not flesh and blood. He can't procreate through sexual reproduction, therefore He can't commit adultery physically.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

HI Rob,

Just a note on this statement you made and an unrelated comment.

Quote:

Why? God is spirit. He is not flesh and blood. He can't procreate through sexual reproduction, therefore He can't commit adultery physically.

God is three and Jesus is a part of that three and He is flesh and blood. Jesus could have committed physical adultery, but He was able to choose not to look at a woman and lust after her in His heart. That was His defense against physical adultery.

That is a key for us all. In order to overcome physical temptations we must deal with the spiritual aspect of it first.

For example, I used to drink a lot and have not had a problem with being tempted to drink. Why? because I focus on the root cause rather than the iniquity. Live with the joy and power that comes from having a real living relationship with the Father.

I used to know some who were drinkers and stopped and they were fighting the temptation to drink rather than choosing to get to a spiritual level and be victorious. They failed and sometimes with horrible consequences.

Norman

[there buster]

Quote:

True: "Hating" is wrong for me, therefore "hating" is also wrong for God.

But God says, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

False: "Physical adultery" is wrong for me, therefore "physical adultery" is also wrong for God.

Why? God is spirit. He is not flesh and blood. He can't procreate through sexual reproduction, therefore He can't commit adultery physically.

I just want to be clear. If it's possible for me and possible for God, then if it's wrong for me, it's wrong for God? Is that your position?

[Robert]

God is three and Jesus is a part of that three and He is flesh and blood.

Incorrect!

Jesus assumed "flesh & blood", but He didn't take "flesh and blood" to heaven. Remember that Paul states that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Christ took a glorified humanity to heaven, which is like the angels. The angels are spirit...

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

True: "Hating" is wrong for me, therefore "hating" is also wrong for God.

But God says, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

False: "Physical adultery" is wrong for me, therefore "physical adultery" is also wrong for God.

Why? God is spirit. He is not flesh and blood. He can't procreate through sexual reproduction, therefore He can't commit adultery physically.

I just want to be clear. If it's possible for me and possible for God, then if it's wrong for me, it's wrong for God? Is that your position?

Sin is sin....

[CaseyButler]

Jesus would have done everything differently.

From Creation down to His Ministry we see the Spiritual education of mankind, by God through His Holy Spirit, as various individuals were inspired to seek Him

As Paul says in one the most ignored verses of the Bible, yet also one of the most important:

"[God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." [Acts 17:26-28]

Our entire existence as sentient beings, knowing good and evil, has been an extended search for God through His Spirit only, that haply we might find Him.

Jesus Christ is the culmination of that search, the Firstfruits of mankind that understood God's Plan completely through the efforts of all those who came before Him, prophets, kings, priests, and average people alike, who longed to see that day when God's Character would be revealed plainly.

Our Spiritual search, like our science, began primitively.

Abraham was not as enlightened as Moses, but Moses through God's Spirit with him learned from Abraham's Spiritual experiences.

Moses was not as enlightened as the prophets, but the prophets through God's Spirit learned from Moses' prophecies and experiences with the Children of Israel.

The prophets, in the first person directly inspired by God, record our Spiritual Progress with God.

The prophets were not as enlightened as Jesus, but through the Spiritual experiences and words from God of the prophets, Jesus understood God as He really is, and He understood the description of His Ministry as prophesied by Moses and the prophets, and He took up His cross, and, accepted by God as understanding Him, received God's Spirit in Full Measure in order to Witness God to mankind and teach us of Him.

Reason, led by the Spirit of God, is what has developed mankind Spiritually to understand our absolute need for God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

"And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." [John 1:1-5]

Jesus is the Word, Logos, or the inspired "reason" of the prophets "made flesh". The Word of the prophets was the cumulation of all of Spiritual history up to the Ministry of Jesus, inspired via dreams and visions by God.

In that inspired reason is Light, but the men of Jesus' time and prior to Him could not fathom that Light because their own Spiritual education had not yet grown to the point of Jesus' own.

Without Abraham, Moses, and the prophets, Jesus could never have learned about God from scripture, could never have followed the prophetic directions that outlined His Purpose, thus He could never have advanced our own understanding of God, should we accept such an advancement - which is Light from the darkness that surrounds us today.

The Creation Narrative is not a scientifically accurate description of Creation, as we know today.

Instead, as is the entire Bible since the Key of David changed its style of message from carnal to Spiritual (see Isaiah chapter 22), the Creation Narrative is a children's story containing the allegory needed for us to understand God's True purpose in giving us knowledge of good and evil.

Spiritually the Creation Narrative contains all of the information we need to understand God's intentions, but certainly not the scientific infromation.

How could God inspire Moses as to how the earth was really created? In what scientific terms that Moses would understand, much less His people, most of whom could not yet read or write? But people needed to have an explanatin of their beginnings to prevent them from speculating on, or inventing a creation narrative of their own.

God is not our science Teacher, however...

Even Jesus said that "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." [John 12:24]

Today we know that seeds do not actually die, rather they live until they are germinated.

So God tells us about ourselves in terms we can understand at the time He tells us, based on the science we know at the time He tells us.

Learning about Him and about ourselves is left up to us, however. God did not tell us how to make airplanes, yet God made birds.

And the flood? Consider the effect of this story. Never again could any man come to the Children of Israel and threaten them with doom if they did not follow him. As long as we see rainbows, we know God is bearing with us still, and so did they.

And Sodom and Gamorrah? It's obvious what the writer was trying to make undesirable by rendering the fate of these two cities...

Jesus said: "Remember Lot's wife."

All of the "historical" stories of the Bible are now Spiritual allegory, changed by the prophets, understandable through the "Key of David" as Jesus understood them.

Which ones really took place as literally described? Is it possible, even today, to wipe out every man, woman, child, and animal in 31 cities as is claimed in Joshua?

Will "iron chariots" really stop God if He has His mind set on something?

No.

Carnally - literally - interpreting the Bible will not teach us Truth as Jesus taught us to hear it.

Scripturally, then, Jesus would have done none of the things in your list, because all of that was done in order that we might learn the consequences of doing evil - and exaggerating our power as God's servants - and mischaracterizing God as "on our side" but nobody else's.

He would no more do anything on that list than you or I would stone and adultress - or anyone else - today. Jesus taught us better.

Jesus, as the culmination of mankind's Spiritual understanding, could indeed state that "before Abraham was, I AM", because we are, even today, where God intended us to be from the very beginning.

All people before our time are part of God.

If we believe Jesus came from God we are One with God, and all people before our time are part of us too.

Indeed, before Abraham was, WE ARE.

And Abraham delights to see our day, for soon we shall see Abraham, Moses, and Jesus as they are. For soon time will have run out for us to reach the culmination of Spiritual enlightment that Jesus reached, and taught us to reach.

God bless you,

Casey

[there buster]

Robert, the phrase "Sin is sin" is what is called a tautology. Basically a meaningless phrase.

I need to know, Yes or No, "If it's possible for me and possible for God, then if it's wrong for me, it's wrong for God? Is that your position?"

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

Quote:

Jesus assumed "flesh & blood", but He didn't take "flesh and blood" to heaven. Remember that Paul states that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven

Ah yes, the misuderstood statements of Paul. Here's another verse like this but it sheds light on Paul's statement.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

First, flesh and blood meaning of human will or choice.

Second, Paul does not say,

Quote:

flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The word Paul uses is "Inherit" which is a lot different than enter. there are two steps in this process taht Paul is referring to.

1. Flesh and blood or human will or choice cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2. Corruption does not inherit incoruption; dying decaying bodies do not inherit immortality without a change.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Changed into what? Phi 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Phi 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And what kind of body is that? Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

This is the same body that He took into heaven. Jesus has accepted this human body for eternity only His body is glorified and will never see sickness or anything that corrupts.

Quote:

Christ took a glorified humanity to heaven, which is like the angels

How did you ever come to that conclusion? I have never read anything that even hints of this Rob.

Norman

[Robert]

"Robert, the phrase "Sin is sin" is what is called a tautology. Basically a meaningless phrase."

There is no "self" (self-love, self-interests, self-seeking) in God's selfless love. Every sin committed stems from the love of self.

God, in Christ, manifested His love on the cross in that He was willing to forfeit life forever so that His enemies might take His place. How can such a God kill?

Yes, if you look at the letter of the law there's certain laws that do not apply to God. Like God cannot have other gods before Him or God can't take His own name in vain. God can't dishonor His parents for He has none. God can't commit adultery for He cannot procreate.

[Robert]

Hi Rob,

Quote:

Jesus assumed "flesh & blood", but He didn't take "flesh and blood" to heaven. Remember that Paul states that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven

Ah yes, the misunderstood statements of Paul. Here's another verse like this but it sheds light on Paul's statement.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

[Robert]

Quote:

Christ took a glorified humanity to heaven, which is like the angels

How did you ever come to that conclusion? I have never read anything that even hints of this Rob.

Norman

1 Cor 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust [Adam], we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood[our physical body] cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. [RSV]

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

Quote:

God, in Christ, manifested His love on the cross in that He was willing to forfeit life forever so that His enemies might take His place. How can such a God kill?

When you say "kill" you are thinking in terms of human behavior. Man does not have that right unless given by God.

Psalm 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. 6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two edged sword in their hand; 7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honor have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Also God says these words on the OT and Paul repeats them in the NT

Deut 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompense; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste........Deut 32:37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted, Notice that God Himself asks where are the gods that they trusted in? That also includes Satan. That alone tells us that God will punish and not even Satan can save them.

Nah 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

We are not all His enemies, this is referring to the wicked. God makes a difference between the two.

Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance ? (I speak as a man) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

If God is not the One taking vengeance then He could not be held unrighteous for taking vengeance in Paul's example. He continues and says, No way! or else how can God judge the world.

Think about it for a while and let it sink in, it is rock solid thinking.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

If God does not fulfill this, then that makes Satan right. How? Because Satan would say that God can't even uphold His own law, He has to use me to fulfill it.

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the dying Satan living God.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

continuing on,

why does this go one more in the OT than in the NT?

Because God's people had a purpose and a plan that was different then what we have today. God was strict with His people in the OT because they were to fulfill the shadow of things to come and be His special people to reveal to the world His character as a nation.

Today that barrier is gone and we are not a people by nationality but by spirit in Christ. The stoning of people in the OT was a shadow of the stoning that will take place in the end. Remember Nebuchadnezar's dream? There was a rock cut out without hands that hit the statue and turned it into dust. Also, Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

These are the substance of the shadow revealed in the OT.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi rob,

Quote:

Quote:

Paul does not say, "flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven"

Paul says, "...flesh and blood cannot inherit (gain/enter) the kingdom of God"

There is a huge diferrence in the context here Rob. Inherit is a lot different than to gain or enter. He's saying that flesh and blood or humanity cannot inherit the kingdom of God. How do we inherit the kingdom of God? two ways in Christ and not without a change in body.

You said

Quote:

I.E., glorified body. Before the cross Christ as man couldn't appear/disappear or walk through walls. But after He could. How? He was raised with a glorified body like the angels. The angels are spirit (whatever that means). They can take the form of a man, but they are not human as in our humanity. So in heaven we will be like them.

Think Phillip, he was able to disappear by the Spirit. Also, the context of Jesus mentioning the angels was marriage and having children, not body substance. He was saying that they will not be marrying or having children but will be like the angels in that respect.

Quote:

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How did you ever come to that conclusion [i.e., Christ took to heaven a glorified body]? I have never read anything that even hints of this Rob.

RC 20: “… Jesus in His glorified humanity has ascended into the heavens to make intercession for us.”

1888, 779: “Christ presented Himself to John in His glorified humanity.”

Glorified humanity simply means humanity that won't die, get sick, won't be deformed or any of the other problems that we currently have with our bodies.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rob you quoted,

Quote:

1 Cor 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust [Adam], we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood[our physical body] cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. [RSV]

Here's the GNB it clears this up.

1Co 15:42 This is how it will be when the dead are raised to life. When the body is buried, it is mortal; when raised, it will be immortal.43 When buried, it is ugly and weak; when raised, it will be beautiful and strong. 44 When buried, it is a physical body; when raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is, of course, a physical body, so there has to be a spiritual body.

We have carnal bodies now or physical bodies, but when Christ returns we will get spiritual bodies like He has. The word "spiritual" does not mean spirit. But we will have bodies, spiritual ones that are no longer prone to the flesh.

Norman

[Robert]

Think about it for a while and let it sink in, it is rock solid thinking.

In your mind because you are placing human attributes onto God.

[Robert]

...he was able to disappear by the Spirit.

Funny, Jesus couldn't do this before the resurrection! No, Christ's humanity was very different from ours after His resurrection.

[Robert]

Here's the GNB it clears this up.

Paraphrased versions are terrible!