Which Trumps Which?

[David Koot]

On another thread, there was discussion about which is more important: relationships, or the Bible? That seemed like a topic worth addressing. How about it? Which is more important, under what circumstances, and why?

[Tom Wetmore]

Which will endure on in to eternity? The Bible or relationships? Of what importance will the Bible be on the other side of the second coming? Why does God go to all the trouble to save us? To prove His word, the Bible, to be true, correct, trustworthy, or whatever? Or to reconnect a broken relationship with mankind?

The culmination of the message of Revelation is this:

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Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

That is some kind of relationship!!

And in terms of your question, as recorded in John 5 (reaed the whole chapter to get the context.) Jesus addressed that issue the first time living with mankind:

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You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life.. These are the Scriptures that testify about about me yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

It's all about relationship.

Tom

[Clio]

[Gerr]

The Bible IS the history of the relationship between God and man, therefore it will endure as long as God & man will be around!

Gerry

[John317]

On another thread, there was discussion about which is more important: relationships, or the Bible? That seemed like a topic worth addressing. How about it? Which is more important, under what circumstances, and why?

The Bible is the greatest love story ever told. It's all about a broken relationship and what God has done, and is doing, to restore it.

The first three chapters show humans face to face with God and the last two chapters show us back again in the arms of our loving Creator. The Bible is a description of everything that happens in between.

But as central as that relationship is, let us never forget that apart from that Bible we wouldn't know anything at all about God, the relationship, about our own brokenness, or about how to get back the original relationship.

The Bible is the guidebook or map directing us on how to get back in that perfect relationship. Many fail of obtaining the relationship because they discard the guidebook. We're completely lost without it.

[jasd]

QR frame:

>>...let us never forget that apart from that Bible we wouldn't know anything at all about God, the relationship, ...<<

John 317 makes a valid point.

Another aspect:

Jer 22:5 | by-me | I swear | utterance (or oracle)-of | the LORD | Transliterated

"I swear by me -- word of YHWH -- ..." Friedman

…Gd swearing by that which, one assumes, might be the sine quo non. I find nowhere that He swears by man’s choices in relationships.

I suppose one may view the Bible/Word of Gd as first cause – by which all else

hinges: even personal relationships.

Therefor, one suspects that Gd’s word trumps; or, how else might one have the knowledge by which to pursue a personal relationship – with Gd? Unless,

such relationship(s) is/are foreordained/predestined – since before the foundation of the world…

[Tom Wetmore]

...But as central as that relationship is, let us never forget that apart from that Bible we wouldn't know anything at all about God, the relationship, about our own brokenness, or about how to get back the original relationship.

Not entirely correct... The first known written Scripture was by Moses some 3500 years after mankind was created. All of the patriarchs prior to Moses had a valid relationship with God with no Bible.

And Paul declares in Romans that man from the beginning has seen God's handiwork which testifies of God, leaving them with no excuse, and the gentiles obey the law of God in their hearts, even without knowing Moses law.

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The Bible is the guidebook or map directing us on how to get back in that perfect relationship. Many fail of obtaining the relationship because they discard the guidebook. We're completely lost without it.

"Abraham was justified [saved] by faith" as we all are. ANd it is salvation by faith in The Word not in words - a person, not a book.

Your last sentence could be understood as the Bible saving us. While I am in nowise diminishing the importance of the Bible, it does nothing to save us and many will be saved that were completely lost without it.

Tom

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

...But as central as that relationship is, let us never forget that apart from that Bible we wouldn't know anything at all about God, the relationship, about our own brokenness, or about how to get back the original relationship.

Not entirely correct... The first known written Scripture was by Moses some 3500 years after mankind was created. All of the patriarchs prior to Moses had a valid relationship with God with no Bible.

And Paul declares in Romans that man from the beginning has seen God's handiwork which testifies of God, leaving them with no excuse, and the gentiles obey the law of God in their hearts, even without knowing Moses law.

This same idea and viewpoint comes up almost every time someone mentions how essential the written word of God is. In the first place, we certainly don't want to go back to the situation as it was before 1400 BC. At least I wouldn't. What would that be like if we did?

In the second place, the context of Paul's words are condemnation, not a saving knowledge of God. The whole purpose of God's written word is to make it easier to be saved, not harder. Paul doesn't say anyone was saved through that knowledge, does he? He simply points out that such knowledge leaves everyone without excuse. He doesn't say that apart from the Bible we can know anything of a saving relationship.

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The Bible is the guidebook or map directing us on how to get back in that perfect relationship. Many fail of obtaining the relationship because they discard the guidebook. We're completely lost without it.

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"Abraham was justified [saved] by faith" as we all are. ANd it is salvation by faith in The Word not in words - a person, not a book.

Your last sentence could be understood as the Bible saving us. While I am in nowise diminishing the importance of the Bible, it does nothing to save us and many will be saved that were completely lost without it.

Tom

The Bible is the story of what God has done in history and this is the basis of our faith in Him. Reread the last sentence and put it together with the first sentence. That way you will be likely to see that the Bible tells us of how God saves us through the life of Jesus Christ. Without the Bible as a map we would be lost, as in not knowing where we are or how to get to heaven.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi David,

I don't think we can pick one over the other. Just as Jesus said, " But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth". John 4:23 24

Truth is the word and spirit refers to the relationship. God has ordained that we learn of Him through the word. Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39 It is true that some are ordained to learn of Him through nature and other means but to us who have the word... there's a reason for it, which we will know in the hereafter.

Hear what God says about His word and you decided if it is important.

Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Psa 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Now the relationship comes after and, as a result of the word because God has ordained it to be that way. Whether the word is verbal or written it is still the word. In other words it is not relational. Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

The word leads to relationships like these;

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

Exod 33:11 And the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

And David who was a man after God's own heart,

Jer 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The way to God is by heeding His call and then finding Him in the Bible and choosing to love Him because of the word which the Holy Spirit makes alive.

Norman

[John317]

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Without the Bible as a map we would be lost, as in not knowing where we are or how to get to heaven.

According to the Bible, before the Scriptures existed, God sometimes spoke directly to people, such as Adam, Cain, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses. People such as Enoch and Joseph had very close relationships with God. Even non-Jews, such as Balaam, heard God speak to them directly or by means of an angel sent from heaven. There were also non-Jews such as Melchisedec who the Bible says was a priest of the Most High. Even in the New Testament period, God spoke to Saul (later called Paul) apart from Scripture. Of course, God also revealed messages to various gentile kings and leaders through dreams.

None of this should be understood to contradict the fact that God points us to the Bible to learn His will and to be instructed about salvation : 2 Tim 3:14-17; 2 Peter 1:21; Prov. 30:5; Ps. 119:160; Isa. 40:8; Ps. 119: 24, 138.

No doubt we all do give the Holy Spirit too little credit or at least we allow Him too little leading in our lives. Today the best way to allow Him to lead us is to point us to God's word, the Bible. It reveals God's will. It's also best to remember in this context that the New Testament tells us that we have much more access to the Holy Spirit now, after Jesus retured to Heaven as our High Priest, than people ever had before. There is more power available from the Holy Spirit than before for the preaching of the gospel and for living a Christian life.

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It is NOT being suggested that the Bible is of little importance, only that without the relationship with Christ it has little value. Who knows the bible better than Lucifer or his buddies? After all, they have seen all of the history since the begining of this world.

It goes without saying that "without the relationship with Christ it has little value," and of course you are right that the devil himself has head-knowledge of the words of the Bible, but the essential difference is that he does not put faith in the Bible as the word of God nor does Lucifer put faith in Jesus as His Savior from sin. The whole purpose of the Bible is to lead us to put faith in God and in Christ. This is the very first point I made.

[David Koot]

Do relationships trump Scripture? (And, by Scripture I mean not only the written Word, but the oral transmission of God's Word to Adam and Eve, the patriarchs, and onward--IOW God's revealed will.)

In the Garden, God gave Adam and Eve His Word, His revealed will. We may safely assume that they were in conformity with His revealed will in every area of their lives, except for one small detail--some fruit. The consequences of what they did, were to terminate the relationship--"In the day you eat thereof, ye shall surely die." Sounds like God's Word was more important even than life, for them.

One could fairly make the argument that what Adam and Eve did violated the relationship. I seem to recall that a Hebrew understanding of sin means to 'shatter the harmony.' Certainly, the concept is Scriptural--the idea of loving God with all the heart, all the soul, all the mind, and that choosing satan over God in any area of the life gives evidence of a divided heart, and shatters the harmony.

'God's Word,' then, could in a sense be understood as describing the kind of relationship that God is seeking with His people. That relationship is paramount, above every other consideration. That relationship, between God and man, is in harmony with God's will as revealed in His Word, the holy Scriptures.

That relationship between God and man is therefore paramount to any other relationship. Indeed, the feudal meaning of 'paramount' may not be too far off the mark here (" paramount lord"). Thus, any human relationship, whether friendship, romance, etc., must defer to that Divine relationship. "God comes first." That relationship, and the terms and conditions of that relationship, are described in the Bible.

Logically, then, as between the Bible and human relationships, the Bible would have top priority. Every human relationship would be subordinate to God's holy Word.

[cricket]

Was that what you were asking in the first place? Which is more important, the Bible or human relationships (with one another)?

[David Koot]

Was that what you were asking in the first place? Which is more important, the Bible or human relationships (with one another)?

Hmmm. Not really. Didn't intend it to be limited to that specific issue. Simply trying to sort out how the Bible and relationships interface. Be they human relationships or otherwise.

Dave

[John317]

Do relationships trump Scripture? (And, by Scripture I mean not only the written Word, but the oral transmission of God's Word to Adam and Eve, the patriarchs, and onward--IOW God's revealed will.)

In the Garden, God gave Adam and Eve His Word, His revealed will...

One could fairly make the argument that what Adam and Eve did violated the relationship. I seem to recall that a Hebrew understanding of sin means to 'shatter the harmony.' Certainly, the concept is Scriptural--the idea of loving God with all the heart, all the soul, all the mind, and that choosing satan over God in any area of the life gives evidence of a divided heart, and shatters the harmony.

'God's Word,' then, could in a sense be understood as describing the kind of relationship that God is seeking with His people. That relationship is paramount, above every other consideration. That relationship, between God and man, is in harmony with God's will as revealed in His Word, the holy Scriptures.

...Logically, then, as between the Bible and human relationships, the Bible would have top priority. Every human relationship would be subordinate to God's holy Word.

Yes, that is what I have been trying to say in my posts on this thread. You just said it more clearly and logically. I think actually Jesus showed this in His own life, didn't he? His relationship with His Father was certainly based on God's word, as was His relationship to His disciples and to everyone else, including his own mother. He asked her, "Didn't you know I had to be about my Father's will?" And later, "My family are all those who do My Father's will."

[Gerr]

Rom 1:24ff records what happens to relationships without the Word.

Gerry

[John317]

Rom 1:24ff records what happens to relationships without the Word.

Gerry

I think that's a great point. We live in a world today that has largely forgotten about that, though.

Also, if our relationships are determined by our feelings instead of by the word, we can find ourselves being led down a lot of wrong paths and into things that God's word is designed to protect us from. We can trust God's word far more than we can trust ourselves or our own hearts.

[olger]

Dear Wet:

Increasing numbers of persons think of themselves as Adventists by heritage or tradition rather than by conviction. Hence they feel free to shop cafeteria-style among the beliefs & practices of the church, assembling for them a suitable selection. True to postmodernist values they find that their demand to be regarded as equivalent as anyone else to be reinforced in the currents of the wider society.

The result is the development of a pluralistic value system. I note this not with any attempt to condemn, but to observe what has become now fully apparent. Such break-away from community values of the church minimizes the virtue of unity, extolling in its place “diversity.” Do you hear all of the catch-terms? Or, perhaps an amalgam of the two: unity & diversity. I hear a great deal of talk about that in certain quarters...

The organized church now becomes challenged. And following post-modernist norms (with regard to organizations) it is regarded as oppressive.

Discounting of church organization is now widespread within the church in some parts of the world. As an organization, its function of enhancing mission is deeply criticized. In its place, mission becomes localized. Wrapped in a kind of parochial Congregationalist mentality that essentially says “Forget the foreign fields, we have our task here.” The steady decline of per capita mission giving in North America is directly related to the intrusion of this system. Organizational diversity is paralleled by a call for doctrinal diversity.

Concurrent with the above we are witnessing a remarkable migration of religion among us. From objective to subjective premise. This exactly parallels the postmodern concept of individualized auto-developed reality. Adventist self-identity once rested on adherence to external truths found in and accepted from the word of God. The experiential element always has been there, but it was used to define my reaction, my surrender to a new birth, my response to the call of Christ. The submission of all my desires and plans and habits and perspectives and goals and hopes—before the majestic truth that Christ has revealed to me. That’s an objective relationship, friends. The transaction was objective. There was a subjective element which dealt with my method and my surrender, but not with the elements of truth. The spirit leads me to accept God’s ways, whether it is convenient or not.

Today’s Adventist church has moved measurably from the description I have just given you. Emphasis falls rather incidentally apart from objective truth (True because it was revealed by God). The stress today is falling on a relationship that relies no longer on revealed truth as it does on inner emotional experience. Hence we have all this feel-good preaching that’s coming from our pulpits, folk. It’s an effort on the part of our pastors to meet the needs that they perceive. At its popular level relationship suggests the coming together of mere equal parties, in a format suggesting negotiated agreement of some kind. Almost missing from this formula is the sense of awe—what it means to come into the presence of the Master of the universe. Curiously, the word relationship is all but absent from the Biblical text.

An intimate walk between persons (us) and the Mighty Ruler of all is often presented, but always & only on the basis of overflowing grace. Never on the basis of cozy intimacy between equals.

olger

[David Koot]

From objective to subjective premise. This exactly parallels the postmodern concept of individualized auto-developed reality.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Upon these seminal issues hang the eternal destiny of millions. It is imperative that we clearly understand them. We fail to do so, at our peril.

To both Wag and Koot...

:duno

Given the density of the explanation I fear that if understanding all that is the key to our fate, than some of us may just be too dumb to save.

"Unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." -- Jesus

If the idea can't be grasped by a child it's probably not all that essential. A child grasps relationship as naturally and simply as grasping Mommy's hand to get safely across the street.

Tom

Have faith - embrace uncertainty!

[olger]

Everyone has a relationship with the Lord Jesus.

For some, it is sitting at His feet before His open Word.

For some it is mocking Him.

etc....

I appreciate the reminder of childlike faith. We Adventists are too intellectually locked, and we need our hearts open to His Word. This will lead us to obedience.

Thanks for your thoughts Dave. They are good ones, and it appears that you have you eyes open. Same to you, 317. I appreciate both of you, among others.

in His love,

olger

[Clio]

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Given the density of the explanation I fear that if understanding all that is the key to our fate, than some of us may just be too dumb to save.

"Unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." -- Jesus

If the idea can't be grasped by a child it's probably not all that essential. A child grasps relationship as naturally and simply as grasping Mommy's hand to get safely across the street.

:tu

The statement 'become like little children' is one that, for me a least, is one of the least talked about, discusssed, debated, etc topics. I believe it says more about us as adults, than we care to talk about.

Precisely why I stay out of the debates generated on this board. I trust the Holy Spirit enough and know my Saviour's Voice, that if I need convicting in a certain area, both the Spirit and Jesus will take me there.

[David Koot]

I trust the Holy Spirit enough and know my Saviour's Voice, that if I need convicting in a certain area, both the Spirit and Jesus will take me there.

That is precisely the line used by adherents of several faiths. I have heard similar words used by people who are rejecting Bible truth. I believe it is an extremely dangerous position to take.

Let me give you an example. One person studies the Bible, and reads where God calls His people to come out of Babylon and unite with His remnant church. It is right there in Scripture. However, another person, who reads the same Bible, claims that the 'spirit' is leading him or her out of any organized religion.

The bottom line is that the 'voices,' the 'spirit,' become the final authority. There may be a belief in Scripture, but the 'voices' explain how to understand Scripture. At best, it is in the same league as rolling the craps. At worst, it is buying into outright deception. The voices one hears, the dreams one has, are attributed to God, when in fact satan can very easily counterfeit impressions.

The only safe final authority is God's written Word, understood by carefully and prayerfully studying Scripture, and comparing Scriptures.

Dave

[David Koot]

Given the density of the explanation I fear that if understanding all that is the key to our fate, than some of us may just be too dumb to save.

Oh come now, Wet. Paste the posts into Word and run a reading level analysis. Should come out about eighth grade or maybe ninth. At any rate, this IS the Bible and Theology forum, right? For serious discussion, as I recall? A version for general consumption would undoubtedly be much simplified.

Dave

[David Koot]

Out of curiosity, I checked the readability statistics myself. Olger scored a 49.5, at a grade 10.1 level. My post scored 61.5 readability, at a grade 7.9 level. Sounds like Ol' Ger is a more sophisticated writer than I am.

[Clio]

Originally Posted By: Clio

I trust the Holy Spirit enough and know my Saviour's Voice, that if I need convicting in a certain area, both the Spirit and Jesus will take me there.

That is precisely the line used by adherents of several faiths. I have heard similar words used by people who are rejecting Bible truth. I believe it is an extremely dangerous position to take.

Let me give you an example. One person studies the Bible, and reads where God calls His people to come out of Babylon and unite with His remnant church. It is right there in Scripture. However, another person, who reads the same Bible, claims that the 'spirit' is leading him or her out of any organized religion.

The bottom line is that the 'voices,' the 'spirit,' become the final authority. There may be a belief in Scripture, but the 'voices' explain how to understand Scripture. At best, it is in the same league as rolling the craps. At worst, it is buying into outright deception. The voices one hears, the dreams one has, are attributed to God, when in fact satan can very easily counterfeit impressions.

The only safe final authority is God's written Word, understood by carefully and prayerfully studying Scripture, and comparing Scriptures.

Dave

I never told you that I was deviating from Bible authority. This is another example of you assuming that because someone's walk with Abba is different from yours, it's wrong.

Nothing of what you describe is what I am doing. I spend long hours in prayer, study, and coming to an understanding that is Holy Spirit led, through disciplined study and understanding the entire compendium of what scripture says on any given topic.

I have said many times over that I spend hours on a daily basis in study of the Bible and prayer . The ONLY safe and final authority is the written Word of Abba, with the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit while studying.

Who are you to determine the state of my salvation or the state of my heart or the state of my walk with Abba?

Do you not believe the promise that those who seek Me shall find Me and live? Proverbs 8:17;Jeremiah 29:13;Amos 5:4; Amos 5:6; Amos 5:14; Zephaniah 2:3; Matthew 7:7; Luke 11:9; Luke 12:31.

Do you not believe that those who erred in understanding will be shown the error they believe so long as they continually seek the Lord? Isaiah 29:24.

Do you not believe it's possible to know the Voice of Jesus? He said we would. Psalm 95:7-8; John 10:3; John 10:27. So I should not believe what Jesus said?

I have refrained from commenting on your insistence of doctrine over relationship, but you are very, very wrong this time. It is the depth of relationship that allows for cheerful and total compliance with doctrine. His strength is sufficient... never mine.

I will not deny my Jesus when I know His Voice when I hear it. It is Holy, True, and stands the test of Scripture and deep, heart-felt, tearful, reverent, awe-filled prayer for guidance and instruction.

Praise Abba we are not all alike and that He takes joy in our diversity.

Edited by Clio