Which Trumps Which?

[Woody]

I am with you in regards to the need to study to show ourselves approved unto God. We need to be diligent in studying the truths. But, I think we need a lot more grace to understand that each person is lead differently by the Holy Spirit. And not all will be able to understand as many truths of the Bible as are SDAs for instance.

I just think that we as a church are to elitest in telling others what we think they have to know. Like you say ... God will decide what they need to know. All we can do is to present the truths and not provide judgment of their souls because we feel they do not know all we think they should know.

[David Koot]

But, I think we need a lot more grace to understand that each person is lead differently by the Holy Spirit.

[Woody]

WOW ... That is wonderful David. I am pleased with your approach. In the midst of all the posts ... it is sometimes hard to see how much we agree with each other while we are busy Disagreeing.

God bless you and your efforts.

[Woody]

David ... with the above points in agreement ... How do you reconcile the fact that the list of items required to understand and believe before baptism ... keeps growing and today stands at 28 . Obviously those in the early church didn't have to understand 28 items before baptism.

Are we just that much smarter than the early church ... OR I should say that we are all expected to be smarter than the early church.

[David Koot]

That is an interesting and most important question. I fear I could not do it justice tonight. Quite tired, and have been cleaning out my car between posts. Bushed for the night. However, I would be interested in responding tomorrow, if all goes well.

Regards,

Dave

[David Koot]

it is sometimes hard to see how much we agree with each other while we are busy Disagreeing.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

While it is true only those who know the Word will be able to go through the final time of trouble successfully, with God

That is what I was referring to.

This particular information was troubling to me until I read this verse from Isaiah. Knowing we are saved by grace through faith, each gifts of God, this promise made perfect sense to me.

"The righteous man perishes, and no man takes it to heart;

And devout men are taken away, while no one understands

For the righteous man is taken away from evil, He enters into peace;

They rest in their beds,

Each one who walked in his upright way. "

Isaiah 57:1,2

That fits well with this promise, especially for those who know their works are insufficient to meet the requirements for entrance into a kingdom without flaw.

"

No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

" 1 Corinthians 10:13 NASB

Blessings!! NASB

[Woody]

Regarding "That fits well with this promise, especially for those who know their works are insufficient to meet the requirements for entrance into a kingdom without flaw."

.............................................................

Knowing that our works are insufficient ... as we ALL know ... we can only be pointed to the one who's works are sufficient.

His works stand in my place so that I don't have to have all those good works. His works count as mine. PTL

.

[LifeHiscost]

What is special and important about the Seventh-day Adventist message is that it is what is needed to prepare people to stand in the presence of a holy God. Dave

And what is missing by a large number, even when a vast amount of knowledge is known. The same thing that excludes the prince of darkness from the heavenly abodes.

"Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”" Luke 18:9-14 NKJV

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

There are lots of good truths in the Bible. One truth is that we will not know all the truths until we are in Heaven. That is where the real learning happens. Our knowledge here on this earth ... of the Bible ... is only a drop in the Bucket. So ... each person will need to accept different amounts of truth as determined by God and depending upon our time, circumstances and intelligence I suppose.

REDWOOD

That seems to fit in with 1 Cor 13.

" ....prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;

but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things.

For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. " 1 Cor 13:8-13 ASV

[David Koot]

How do you reconcile the fact that the list of items required to understand and believe before baptism ... keeps growing and today stands at 28 . Obviously those in the early church didn't have to understand 28 items before baptism.

My dear Redwood,

I wish to follow through and essay a response to your important questions. I have begun a new thread in the SDAs Believe section, to focus on these very issues. I hope you will consider participating on the thread.

Best Regards,

Dave

[LifeHiscost]

His works stand in my place so that I don't have to have all those good works. His works count as mine. PTL

.

Your first statement above seems to me to reveal a sharply decided focus on whether or not personal salvation is dependent on one's own personal works. It seems clear that since all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags (KJV Isaiah 64:6) they are revealed as totally insufficient for one's own personal salvation. This being true and knowing our salvation is dependent upon the free gift of life through the shed blood of Jesus, it would appear we need a higher calling than spending time trying to make our works sufficient, and consider how we can submit to the free gift of imparted righteousness that others may see the awesome power and grace of Jesus Christ in saving someone so undeserving as ourselves, thus letting His righteousness dominate our experience for the saving of the souls of those who look to us to reveal the character of Jesus. Their own faith then may grasp the reality of putting trust where it rightfully belongs, in the power of Jesus alone, for the salvation of their own souls.

"...apart from me you can do nothing."

John 15:5 NASB

"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Matthew 19:26 KJV

This progression of the salvation of souls can only come about when we claim no responsibility for worthwhile deeds except those worked out in our life through the power of the Holy Spirit, a gift granted freely to those willing to give God the glory.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2:13 KJV

"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Romans 2:29 KJV

Blessings!!

[Woody]

As usual ... WELL said Life .

Our life IS in Him.

Seeing our good works will not impress a lot of people. Nonchristians can have good works .

But seeing the peace of imparted righteousness ... Now that is a witness of value.

The imparted works will glorify God before the Universe. They will Honor Him but I don't see them as being as much of a witness ... as the peace of a saved soul.

[LifeHiscost]

The imparted works will glorify God before the Universe. They will Honor Him but I don't see them as being as much of a witness ... as the peace of a saved soul.

Part of that peace comes to me when I see another person whose life is markedly improved as a result of what was done for them, in the name of Jesus.

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 5:16 KJV

In order to make this Scripture consistent with the rest of the Word, it is necessary for me to remember that when it speaks of "your works", it refers to that which Jesus is working out in you/me.

Blessings!!

[jasd]

Forgive..., I've been unable to keep up with this thread due to infrequent logins; nevertheless, unless this particular issue has already been addressed -- let it be here profferred, for what it is.

>>Someone receives a dream in which what appears to be an angelic messenger instructs him that the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years is allegorical, symbolizing the purification of all nations, at the end of which all will be saved. There is not necessarily a conflict with Scripture, simply a way of understanding Scripture.<<

Well, a good hypothetical deserves another, yes?

Say I, or anyone else, …even a prophet or one greater, declares that the saints will have stars (representing souls of those having been won [into the remnant denomination, mebbe?]) in their crowns..., can that be substantiated in Holy Writ? If not,

what must the ‘standing/position’ of such a one be, henceforward, in the relevant community?

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, …

Or, leaving the hypothetical aside, how about the experiential?

Judges 6:36 And Gideon said unto God, If thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said, v37 Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if …

[Woody]

What attracts me and gives me peace is the Good News of Salvation. Good works can happen in anyone ... Christian or non Christian.

But the peace and assurance of Salvation is a real witness.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Without reviewing the foregoing posts, I believe it has been upon this thread that questions concerning “apostasy” and “doctrinal errors” were raised… Let me ask (extemporaneously),

what was the significance of Pentecost and the two loaves containing leaven? Does not Writ declare to us that Gd not only instructed the leavening

but accepted their offering?

[jasd]

Is it not that sometimes -- one person's "apostasy" is another's truth, yes? no?

Who apostasizes from whom?

[Clio]

jasd -

Your questions provoke considerable thought. I can answer only from my subjective perspective which has already been trampled sufficiently on this thread.

Although not by you.

[David Koot]

I can answer only from my subjective perspective which has already been trampled sufficiently on this thread.

For a student to acknowledge that his or her views are subjective, is good, and it is helpful. The problem comes where someone presents his or her subjective views as a direct inspiration or message from God. THAT is what will be subject to challenge. If those subjective views do not stand up to objective review, then, the student would do well to reconsider them.

[David Koot]

Is it not that sometimes -- one person's "apostasy" is another's truth, yes? no?

Is it? Then what axioms may one rely on in coming to a study of the Word? Or, are there none? Is 'truth' auto-created? Is it subjective? Is it existential?

Dave

[Woody]

We will not know all truth until we get to heaven. So ... to think that we have the knowledge now is not accurate. A few years ago there was a movement of Righteousness by works. They thought they had the truth. So ... to think that you have it now would not be accurate. Truth is progressive. And we will learn it for real when we get to heaven.

I would suggest you live up to your truth the best you know how. But it is not knowledge or works that will save you so I would not lose sleep over not knowing everything.

[Clio]

Nobody on this thread has done so, David.

And personal experience can never be objective. It can only be subjective and based on relationship.

And relationship is the foundation of obedience unless one becomes an automaton performing only out of force or fear.

[Woody]

Well SAID Clio. It is all about relationship. So ... all that truth stuff is nice but it will not have anything to do with our eternal destiny.

It is all about WHO you know not WHAT you know.

[David Koot]

We will not know all truth until we get to heaven.

True. But surely you don't suggest that we cannot know some truth here and now. Didn't Jesus say, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free?" Didn't He promise to send the Spirit of truth to guide His people into "all truth"? In the Bible, God has revealed to us the truth we need to prepare for heaven. Is it in 2 Tim. 2:15, "and from childhood thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation"? Again, in ch. 3:16, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

{quote]

So ... to think that we have the knowledge now is not accurate.

So ... to think that you have it now would not be accurate.