Clio Posted February 17, 2007 Posted February 17, 2007 I stand by my comment. I must get lots of Help. If I have to "say" it... and I try to plan eloquence... grrr... it's not me. LOL! I often rely on His promise that when the time comes to speak, to not plan, but simply speak and He will provide the words necessary to be spoken. The hard part is having the faith and courage to speak in the first place! Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Ted Oplinger Posted February 17, 2007 Posted February 17, 2007 Quote: What was presented to me is the concept that to be in tune with God (whomever 'God' may be) we need to bypass the conscious mind, bypass the empirical, bypass the rational. When I asked, how do you know if it is true? I was told, that is the western mindset, wanting to prove or verify something. That is not how God reaches us. Don't try to analyze or verify it. While the empirical/rational cannot be bypassed, neither indeed should it be the sole basis for spiritual growth/guidance. The Jews were a very empirical lot - they constantly appealed to Christ for signs - empirical proof He was indeed the Christ, yet they bypassed the very empirical evidence He did give. The Greeks were all about logic and philosophy - tantalizing intellectual pursuits that considered the Gospel rather a foolish, illogical thing. Yet, when Paul made the decision to dwell on Christ, and Christ only, there was a spiritual appeal that defied the "logic" of the philosophists. Today, there are "-isms" of every kind - empiricism, rationalism, philosophism, mysticism, emotionalism...- and the promoter of each wants it to be the sole basis of how one should look at the world. The trouble is, each of these are also the basis for what Paul says our true battle is against: 2 Corinthians 10:3-7 "3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete. 7 You are looking at things as they are outwardly. If anyone is confident in himself that he is Christ's, let him consider this again within himself, that just as he is Christ's, so also are we." The empirical and rational processes, to themselves, are not good safeguards to assure salvation by. These are what the Jewish leadership stumbled over. The "still, small voice" is not some mystical thing, but rather the result of being connected to the spiritual conciousness of Christ - the head of the church. Christ will not throw away the logical, the rational, and empirical as unnecessary, but neither does He wish us to use these to bypass the spiritual: Spiritual things must be spiritually discerned. That tells me that there are times when the empirical/rational/logical can actually hinder our growth and service to God. From my perspective, the real Western mindset problem is in the exalting of the individual to the exclusion of the corporate bodies humanity, whereas many Eastern mindsets exalt the corporate belonging to the exclusion of the individual. The Church, and the believer, must recognize the relevance of BOTH in balance, and place the empirical/rational/logical processes in their proper spheres - under the concious direction of Christ. Today's "post-modern" thought seems to want to combine these "-isms" I listed above with individualism, such that revelation becomes solely an individual spiritual thing which bypasses the Word and the Body of Christ, on the notion that the individual connection reigns supreme - because the individual can control this connection (much like the Jews thought they could control the empirical evidences the Messiah was supposed to give). If we depend upon the sensational, the Holy Spirit will assuredly work through the mundane. If we depend greatly upon the empirical, the rational, the logical - the result will be the cold Ephesian experience: theoretically and arguably correct, but lacking in the "weightier matters of the Law" - love, justice, and mercy. The emotional route will likewise lead to a dead end. God will always in a manner consistently in agreement with His Word - but it is God who defines what that consistent manner will be. Our various attempts through empirical logic, heart works, or mystical understandings will always come up short - even to the point of betraying our ignorance of God when He wishes to work consistent with His Word, but contrary to understandings of just how things should be. [Having thrashed around and muddied the pool, the 'gator goes back under water, waiting for that Okie to wander out...] Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
CaseyButler Posted February 17, 2007 Posted February 17, 2007 With all that in mind, Ted, what do you feel Jesus meant when He said: "...Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." "For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." "Salt (is) good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another." [KJV-Bible - Mark 9:48-50] Casey Quote
David Koot Posted February 17, 2007 Author Posted February 17, 2007 [Having thrashed around and muddied the pool, the 'gator goes back under water, waiting for that Okie to wander out...] Quote
David Koot Posted February 17, 2007 Author Posted February 17, 2007 The still, small voice referenced in 1 Kings 19, of Elijah's experience is unmistakeable. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted February 17, 2007 Posted February 17, 2007 The question is, what is the proper place for each? THAT is the topic of this thread--which is 'trump'? "Trump": A decisive overriding factor or final resourse A word foreign to the work of the Holy Spirit in concert with the Word. The principle of learning Truth can be found in different places, revealing the conduct that is as God would have men accept. "I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him." John 8:26 KJV ""But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13 NASB "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak." John 12:49 NASB Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Ted Oplinger Posted February 17, 2007 Posted February 17, 2007 Quote: Well put, indeed . . . muddied the water! Immersed like you are in all that run-off from DTS. It shows. Now I have got to get all that mud and effluent filtered out. Ahem!!!! Ah, my friend, the Trinity river flows well to the east of here - at least a hour's drive away...Quite safe from the bilge that brews up there at the DTS... Quote: It is true that the empirical is not the sole basis for spiritual growth. However, the empirical is a check and balance, an objective reality check for our own protection. Actually, the point I'm making here is that while this church correctly argues that secularism, materialism, and eastern mysticism are, at their root essence, fundamentally in opposition to God and His Word...so many in this church desire to place the equally humanistic -isms of empiricism and rationalism as so very important to spiritual growth. Approaching God's solely through these avenues leads directly to the result seen in Revelation 2:1 In truth, the five senses and logic are not equatable to empiricism, neither is reason to rationalism. Quote: Quote:The Jews were a very empirical lot No, they weren't. They came to the study of Scripture with their own agendas. They were not inductive, they were not open to God's leading, they knew what they wanted, and didn't want to hear Scripture that contradicted what they wanted. And Christendom hasn't? The SDA Church has been immune to all this? Dave, I must differ on this point. EVERY human group and institution will come to Scripture with an agenda of what they want proven "truth from God". Our church is no different in this respect. The Jews were quite empirical. Their language and culture were rooted in the five senses of the concrete, not the abstract (like the Greeks). They are just as devoted to the empirical as the latter day "believers" who fall for the fire from heaven signs during the tribulation: real, tangible evidence that can be seen with eyes and felt with the hands. This is why the Jews were constantly asking Jesus for a "sign". All empirical approaches are not equally inductive or efficient...but all will ultimately lead to the same end if the Word is not mixed with FAITH. That is where the Jews failed. Not because they weren't empirical enough, but because they did not mix the Gospel they were given with faith. See Hebrews 3,4. Quote: The reality IMO is that there is a place for each. The question is, what is the proper place for each? THAT is the topic of this thread--which is 'trump'? FAITH trumps all. One act of faith on one given statement of God trumps all the empirical deducements man can make with his mental strengths. Why? Because the act of faith brings with it the power of God in action. Faith is knowing the Word of God is true AND has power to what God has spoken that Word to do...that this is all true for you personally, and that you can fully depend on this fact to allow God to bring into existence that which is ordinarily impossible for you to do and be. Faith has empirical elements to it, but it is not empiricism. It has logic and rational thought, but it isn't rationalism. To study the Word outside the framework of faith immediately puts one on the outside looking in. Quote: According to your analysis, apparently, the 'still small voice' is authority for itself! Or, one's experience of the still small voice. The individual, subjective experience is final authority for the experience! Really? I thought I made the argument for the exact opposite. The "still, small voice" will always have authority, but it is not exclusive to the corporate body of Christ, you silly Okie! The individual experience cannot be exclusive of the corporate whole...but neither can the corporate trump the individual (aka, popery). The Elijah experience for a believer (being alone serving God) won't happen for the remnant until the time of trouble is very much underway, and God's people are forced out into the mountains and forests. Even then, there will be a few around. But some will be truly alone, and these can claim that still, small voice authority to the world. I don't think that is the case today. As I said before, balance on the issues is key, and faith is the real point of trumping; making an experience too individualistic, too subjective, is not the meaning of true faith, nor is it balance. Got to run and prep my Sabbath School lesson for this morning's class! Ted Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
David Koot Posted February 18, 2007 Author Posted February 18, 2007 Jesus explained it by saying, "My sheep know my voice..." Also it is the same Spirit that warmed my heart while reading from the Bible. It is that certain unmistakable voice of love, joy and peace. Getting back to this seminal statement. HERE, indeed, is the crux of the matter, the above statement. 'My sheep know My voice," how? the heart being warmed, the emotions of love, joy and peace. THAT is asserted as authenticating the still, small voice. But THAT test is subjective, AND can be counterfeited by satan. Satan can warm the heart. THE proof proferred by the Mormon missionaries, is that you will feel a warmth in your heart, and the Holy Ghost is giving you evidence that the Mormon teachings are true. Satan can counterfeit that feeling of warmth, as well as the feelings of love, joy and peace. It is a fact, and it has been done many times before. Thus, neither the experience of hearing a voice, or feeling particular emotions, will authenticate the voice as being from God. Dave Quote
CaseyButler Posted February 18, 2007 Posted February 18, 2007 Originally Posted By: D. Allan Jesus explained it by saying, "My sheep know my voice..." Also it is the same Spirit that warmed my heart while reading from the Bible. It is that certain unmistakable voice of love, joy and peace. Getting back to this seminal statement. HERE, indeed, is the crux of the matter, the above statement. 'My sheep know My voice," how? the heart being warmed, the emotions of love, joy and peace. THAT is asserted as authenticating the still, small voice. But THAT test is subjective, AND can be counterfeited by satan. Satan can warm the heart. THE proof proferred by the Mormon missionaries, is that you will feel a warmth in your heart, and the Holy Ghost is giving you evidence that the Mormon teachings are true. Satan can counterfeit that feeling of warmth, as well as the feelings of love, joy and peace. It is a fact, and it has been done many times before. Thus, neither the experience of hearing a voice, or feeling particular emotions, will authenticate the voice as being from God. Dave So you are saying that Mormons who feel warm feelings from God of love, joy, and peace, are influenced by Satan? That must include Catholics also? And Muslims? How has the Adventist church avoided being influenced by Satan through feelings of love, joy, and peace from the still small voice of God, the author of those feelings? Isn't Satan's forte that of casting doubt upon God? If you are telling me good things do not come from God only, but good things also come from Satan, are you not assigning Satan's attributes to God or vice versa? By doing so, are you not casting doubt on everyone's experience with God but your own, judging the Holy Spirit within them and doing so without bothering to back up your words empirically with scripture OR by claiming inspiration of the Holy Spirit? It seems so to me. Casey Quote
Woody Posted February 18, 2007 Posted February 18, 2007 You can trust the Bible all you want but it comes down to being impressed by the Holy Spirit as to what the Bible means ... this is what is important. The Bible itself will do you no good unless you have the Spirit to interpret for you. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
David Koot Posted February 18, 2007 Author Posted February 18, 2007 You can trust the Bible all you want but it comes down to being impressed by the Holy Spirit as to what the Bible means ... this is what is important. The Bible itself will do you no good unless you have the Spirit to interpret for you. Here, we come, once again, to the crux of the question. So, you study the Bible, and you say the Holy Spirit interprets it for you. First question: how do you know if it is the Holy Spirit doing the interpreting? A real-life example: a student reads Revelation's account of the lake of fire, and then claims that the Holy Spirit has impressed him or her that it is allegorical, and that the wicked will not be destroyed, but everyone will be saved. Is that true? Because of the claim of the Holy Spirit interpreting, does that make it true? Another case in point: please apply your methodology to the folllowing Bible verse: ". . . He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." (Hebrews 9:12, NIV) Please, then, give a real-life demonstration of the process you have described. So, you read the text, and then, tell us the process by which the Holy Spirit interprets this text for you, and please tell us the interpretation. I shall be interested to read your response. Dave+ Quote
Woody Posted February 18, 2007 Posted February 18, 2007 Quote: how do you know if it is the Holy Spirit doing the interpreting? Since you don't think the Holy Spirit is important when reading the scriptures ... I would like to know from you .... HOW do you know that your individual interpretation without the Holy Spirit is the correct belief? I prefer to lean not according to my own understanding and trust the Holy Spirit to guide me unto all truth. Who do you lean on? ... How can you trust YOUR individual interpretation? Is your judgment Always right? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
David Koot Posted February 18, 2007 Author Posted February 18, 2007 Since you don't think the Holy Spirit is important when reading the scriptures Please provide a backquote from my posts where I have said this. Still waiting for your response. Quote
Woody Posted February 18, 2007 Posted February 18, 2007 Quote: you say the Holy Spirit interprets it for you Yes ... I do say this. Who interprets scripture for you? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
David Koot Posted February 18, 2007 Author Posted February 18, 2007 Yes ... I do say this. How do you knkow it is the Holy Spirit? There are other spirits who also interpret Scripture. If you like, I can give you more detail. Is it possible that some other spirit is interpreting Scripture for you? How would you know either way? Quote
Woody Posted February 18, 2007 Posted February 18, 2007 Whose spirit do you use ... OR do you just use you own wisdom? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
D. Allan Posted February 18, 2007 Posted February 18, 2007 "By their fruits you shall know them." Are the effects in your lives and in mine these 'fruits': Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Gentleness, Humility, Temperance? If not the tree we've been snacking from should be cut down for firewood. If we can't trust these fruits in our ownexperience to be from the Holy Spirit then how much less can we trust the experience of others to be of the Holy Spirit. And that includes the authors of the Bible, both New and Old Testaments. They were men just like us. Perhaps we have been too trusting. I'm serious. Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
David Koot Posted February 19, 2007 Author Posted February 19, 2007 Whose spirit do you use ... OR do you just use you own wisdom? Looks to me like you are not going to answer the question. I have asked it several times. So, that is the end of that. Quote
David Koot Posted February 19, 2007 Author Posted February 19, 2007 "By their fruits you shall know them." Are the effects in your lives and in mine these 'fruits': Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Gentleness, Humility, Temperance? Do you think it is possible for someone who believes in Jesus, and who manifests the fruits you have mentioned, to be confused or led astray in their study of the Bible? How would you characterize the false christ who will appear just before Jesus returns? Do you think he will show love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, humility, temperance? Apparently, he will. He will seem so authentic as to deceive, if possible, 'the very elect.' How will they avoid being deceived? Quote
Woody Posted February 19, 2007 Posted February 19, 2007 Right on D. Allen. You have hit the nail on the head. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â
D. Allan Posted February 19, 2007 Posted February 19, 2007 Quote: Do you think it is possible for someone who believes in Jesus, and who manifests the fruits you have mentioned, to be confused or led astray in their study of the Bible? Most definitely! Also, I see that we have been too trusting of the authority of the Bible! The authors were men just like us! Their experiences were subjective, too! Why should we trust theirs' if we cannot trust our own subjective experience?! I guess the humanistic stance is the only reasonable one then. And religion must be an invention of man. Although it does seem that evolution has programned us to have spiritual capacities. So... that leaves me free to choose my own values. I think I'll stick with the pursuit of Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Gentleness, Humility, Temperance. Paul's endorsement is worth considering, I guess, just as much as and no more than that of that excellent TV Evangelist, Dr. Wayne Dyer (whom you may have seen on PBS during their fundraisers.) I'm not being sarcastic, Dave, I'm trying to be reasonable. Life is too short to try to decieve ourselves. We need to find a way to open our hearts as soon as possible. Blessings, (d.allan) Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
CaseyButler Posted February 19, 2007 Posted February 19, 2007 Quote: Indeed, each prophet whose work was ultimately included in the Bible was tested against the existing Scriptures. This process continued for hundreds of years, as successive generations of scholars carefully sifted through the writings, analyzing and comparing. Much that was written was not included in Scripture, because it fell short of the mark. Of course that's completly false. It wasn't until Christianity that "careful sifting" of Jewish scriptures became vogue. For proof of the careful preservation of all scripture by the Jews whom God chose for that purpose, we have the fact that the scholars of Israel were, and still largely are, blind to the writings of the prophets regarding their own Messiah, as they were and are blind to the writings of Moses regarding the abominations the children of Israel forced him to integrate into their religion. Had Hebrew scholars "carefully sifted" through the writings of the prophets, certainly these prophecies that so clearly point to Jesus, a humble and non-violent servant of God destined for crucifixion, rather than a great political and military leader who would conquer the world for Judaism (at that time) through violence, would have been removed long ago. But fortunately, and through the careful stewardship of Jewish scholars, the prophecies are still there for us to examine today in order to understand other prophecy pertinent to today, as we allow God to convict us of who we really behave like, what we've really become when compared to what Jesus Christ asked us to become. Casey Quote
D. Allan Posted February 19, 2007 Posted February 19, 2007 Quote: The prophetic gift? Indeed, each prophet whose work was ultimately included in the Bible was tested against the existing Scriptures. And how are we to know the the "existing" scriptures were not subjective experiences of men like us decieved by their unconscious minds? And the ones before them, and the ones previous to them............ ? If empirical reason is all we can trust we need to subject the Bible to the most rigorous "higher criticism" to make sure we are not being deluded. I'm not even sure we can always trust "reason" since it is often directed by unaknowledged emotions drives: denial, suppression, intellectualization, projection, etc. So we need to be careful there too. Maybe when we learn to quit understanding ancient writings as the literal word of God and understand them as being records of the spiritual experiences of other humans just like ourselves then maybe we will be able to find spiritual truth in those writings that will change the way we live our lives - we will not be subject to spiritual coerision but to spiritual development springing from our hearts and minds looking to previous generations in the same way that science builds on the shoulders of its predecessors and finds previous science can be corrected and improved upon. Perhaps we need a science of religion that includes a study of religious practice and experience, psychology, biology. ~d.allan Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
Clio Posted February 19, 2007 Posted February 19, 2007 Well, regardless of how this topic finally turns out, I for one am so grateful for the words of the Bible through which Abba is revealed. By experiencing Him through His Word, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, answers to prayer, and His loving care of the intimate details of my life, I KNOW Abba, and Jesus, just as I know my husband. My obedience is loving, trusting obedience from a loving heart. And I can love Him, because I *know* Him. Not because someone told me I "should". Loving someone because you "should" isn't much of a love at all. It certainly doesn't rise to the level of loving with "all your heart, mind, soul, and spirit." Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
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