Which Trumps Which?

[David Koot]

If he can't potect me from wandering off the beaten path or lying spirits....WHO CAN????

I suggest, first of all, the importance of not being confident in oneself--to not be confident of one's opinions, perceptions, ideas. That, I submit, is crucial. Secondly, it is crucial to place one's ideas, one's agendas, one's opinions, upon the altar,and surrender them to the lordship of Jesus Christ, praying, 'not my will, but Thy will be done." Thirdly, the Holy Spirit is not a substitute for careful study of the Word. The HOly Spirit is promised to guide those who carefully study the Word, but not to replace such careful study. Peer review is helpful here. When a student reaches a conclusion about a Bible passage, then s/he would do well to share the conclusions with other students of the Word, and get feedback. Also important is the understanding that God works through His organized church, and reveals important truths to His church, not just to one or two people. Thus, sister White's counsel to submit one's conclusions to the brethren, and see how they respond. This will require humility and a teachable spirit.

Dave

[David Koot]

Maybe when we learn to quit understanding ancient writings as the literal word of God and understand them as being records of the spiritual experiences of other humans just like ourselves

[David Koot]

Of course that's completly false.

It wasn't until Christianity that "careful sifting" of Jewish scriptures became vogue.

You are mistaken. A number of Jewish writings were excluded by the Jews from the OT canon. Later, the Christian church councils dealt with the multiplicity of writings pertaining to the gospel and various letters to the churches. By the time of those councils, the OT Scriptures had been fixed by the Jews for quite some time.

Dave

[CaseyButler]

You seem to be purposely missing the point. Nobody's talking about adding or subtracting from scripture.

What needs to be done is to recognize the "evolution" of Knowledge of God that already exists in the Bible.

To rightly divide the divine from the earthly.

No man can resolve Matthew chapters 5 thru 7 with the books of Moses, the latter of which have God instituting primitive and barbaric rites and punishments among people He was supposed to love.

Today we understand those laws and punishments were the inventions of men, as the prophets always said they were.

Jesus changed both times and laws. He did not abrogate any laws, but He changed them.

He enlightened us to the true God by His very life, living in peace among us and not causing violence to anyone even when His life was threatened.

That's how we will always know His ways were the ways of God, not the ways of the world, because the world can't understand such wisdom until it sees the actual results of doing otherwise.

God's Kingdom - His government, His society - is not of this world because nobody of this world could invent such a marvelous system of community.

Only if we believe in God can we conceive that such a way of life as Jesus outlined and lived is actually possible.

Casey

[CaseyButler]

No, I'm not mistaken. We are speaking of up to the time of Christ. You are changing the parameters to after Christ.

Casey

[David Koot]

Peer review? Humans are Peer to God? When Christ left His deciples for heaven, He gave them the HS in the place of Himself.

[David Koot]

No man can resolve Matthew chapters 5 thru 7 with the books of Moses, the latter of which have God instituting primitive and barbaric rites and punishments among people He was supposed to love. Today we understand those laws and punishments were the inventions of men, as the prophets always said they were.

[David Koot]

You are changing the parameters to after Christ.

Nope. I referred to Old Testament times, as well as NT.

[CaseyButler]

Originally Posted By: CaseyButler

No man can resolve Matthew chapters 5 thru 7 with the books of Moses, the latter of which have God instituting primitive and barbaric rites and punishments among people He was supposed to love. Today we understand those laws and punishments were the inventions of men, as the prophets always said they were.

You are mistaken about that. God gave the rites and punishments to the people, through Moses, on Mount Sinai.

[David Koot]

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments. Moses, through God's Spirit within him, did what he thought would work to enforce these Ten simple laws meant to be overseen by God only - and in response to pressure from his people, he added more and more abominations to their religion so that they could appear superior, pious, and blessed by God to their neighbors.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

I could not disagree more. I openly take my stand upon the Reformation principle of sola scriptura, and upon the first of the fundamental beliefs of SDA's, that "the holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of [God's] will." "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God . . ."

Dave, I'm just trying to be consistent with your belief, as I understand you, that we cannot trust our understanding of scriptures to be correct by trusting to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Now if that is the case how can we trust that ones who wrote them were correct in their understanding. It does no good to say it because they agree with previous writings. They too could have been subject to the same errors and passed them on down. I cannot trust the writings of these ancient people more than my own experience -

If the Holy Spirit is the source of the writings then why would one value them above the Source. If you recieve a valentine from your little daughter, do you value the valentine more or your daughter. Do you spend more time reading the valentine or more time listening to your daughter? Do you spend more time reading the Bible or more time listening to the Holy Spirit?

I would say, however, that the Holy Spirit is not the source of those ancient writings we call scriptures but that he is the inspiration. And that is a big difference. He is an inspiration to me too. I know His voice. He loves my soul and leads me to seek after truth where ever is takes me. I am alway ready to change my mind. And I can find inspiration through the scriptures but I am alway aware that they were written by men who had their own agendas.

[David Koot]

Dave, I'm just trying to be consistent with your belief, as I understand you, that we cannot trust our understanding of scriptures to be correct by trusting to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

[CaseyButler]

What I have addressed is the concern, first, of recognizing whether or not it is, in fact the Holy Spirit leading; secondly, the importance of distrusting self and recognizing that we are sinful and prone to err; and, thirdly, the recognition that if new light is from God, then He will reveal it to His remnant church, and not just to one or two, while leaving His church in darkness.

The church revels in darkness. It wants darkness.

Our church's sole purpose has become to propagate the status quo of those who administer and lead it, those who receive a paycheck for their evil services of "protecting" the church from its membership, new light, and truth from God. It is God who works through the lowest and basest of the church's membership, not through the puffed up administrators, scholars, and theologians whose interest is not served by correction or guidance unless it comes from their own imagination.

Jesus had "new light", as did all of the prophets. They were all rejected by the church.

Our church is no different.

Jesus was crucified by the church. All of the Apostles were persecuted by the church, even killed.

As Jesus said, those who killed them believed they were doing God a favor by killing them.

Because the church feared "heresy".

Anyone today who points out how far our own church is from the teachings of Christ is not even bringing "new light", but confirming old light.

Yet, by people who feel exactly as you do, they are summarily excommunicated for "heretical teachings" that they ought to be teaching themselves.

What do you think, if you were a pastor or church employee or educator and your $50,000+ salary came from the church, how willing would you be to follow Christ's teachings, support them, and rebuke the church for joining the world and deserting Christ and His teachings?

The church keeps itself in darkness. There is no shortage of light from God and the Holy Spirit among the membership of the SDA Church, but the church cannot hear this light, they rule over their membership as the Pharisees ruled over the Jews, deciding who lives and who dies - who is worthy of Christ and who is not.

Again, religion killed Jesus Christ in order to survive itself. Religion is all about rejecting God and controlling God's abilities to heal and restore people whom it has also rejected.

If Jesus attempted to return through any member of our church preaching the same things He taught during His ministry, our church would see to it that He was stopped no matter what it took.

That is the result of consenus among men who share a common agenda and a common source of income.

For example, Jesus would point out that no pastor should be accepting a monetary salary for doing the work of God. Jesus defined the "workman's hire" as another's roof over his head and meals provided.

Jesus would bring all those whom the church has cast out back into the fold, Jesus would lead the membership away from those who fancy themselves "shepherds", whose egos feed on the membership's worship, who sit at the front of the church breaking every commandment He left us with, and He would lead all of His sheep back into serving the rest of mankind, rather than enriching a few.

The evil that religion becomes as it puffs itself cannot bear truth from God or new light from God, much less act as the watchman for its congregations.

You will not find in the Bible one verse that has God saying: "I am happy with my church".

Indeed, it is each church that becomes an antichrist, anti His people, anti His teachings, and finally, anti His truth about all churches.

That Wicked has been revealed to any who wish to see: People grouped together in elite organizations led by other people, ostensibly for the worship of God, but in reality for the fellowship gained by support of one another's rebellion against God and His teachings and Laws.

Mankind is inherently evil. You, me, and Adolf Hitler are one of a kind. Human.

All of us, equally, must acknowledge our evil and our responsibility for what we blame God for.

And God will change us at our request.

"Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD."

"Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:"

"And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding."

"And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit (it); neither shall (that) be done any more."

"At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart." [KJV-Bible - Jeremiah 3:13-17]

Casey

[D. Allan]

Quote:

... and they were, at least in part, the personal views or interpretation of the men who wrote them.

That's the way I see it at this time.

Quote:

What I have addressed is the concern, first, of recognizing whether or not it is, in fact the Holy Spirit leading;

Paul's description of the fruits of the Spirit could apply here.

Quote:

As to the first issue, you claim to be able to validate the 'still small voice' by the 'warm feeling' and emotions of love, peace and joy which you say you have experienced. However, many, many other people have claimed such validation, using, even, the identical words in many cases, for their beliefs, which are patently contrary to the plain statements of Scripture--for example, immortality of the soul, the teachings purportedly given to Joseph Smith by the angel Moroni, and so forth.

Not merely emotions of love, peace and joy, kindness, gentleness, humility, temperance... fruits of the Spirit as listed by Paul. These are not merely emotions. They result in actions. They change the way you interact with God and your fellow humans. As for beliefs, such as immortality of the soul, etc. they are minor matters compared to the fruits of the Spirit. I'm not concerned with immortality of the soul and such beliefs that divide religions and Christianity into denominations. What unites them is what I find compelling: Love of God and Love of His creatures (including humans

~d.allan

[CaseyButler]

What unites them is what I find compelling: Love of God and Love of His creatures (including humans

You mean, I suppose, what should unite them.

But human love never will accomplish that. We can wait and wait forever, try different religions, different governments.

But nothing is going to replace turning away from what men claim to be uniting, and turning back to back to God who loves and guides each individual to unity with Him.

Jesus said He divided us with His teachings. Discussing why He did that, why we will simply continue dividing until God intervenes, ought to be our most discussed topic.

Again: In Daniel 12:7 we are told that the end will not come until the Messiah has succeeded in "scattering the power of the holy people".

Why? What effect does that power have on the Will of God? Why doesn't God speak of scattering the power of sinners?

Casey

[David Koot]

Paul's description of the fruits of the Spirit could apply here.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

All we can see is on the outside--behaviors, words, etc. It is, in fact, possible for a person (or a demon impersonating a person, or impersonating Jesus Christ) to give outward evidence of many of the fruits of the Spirit, such as you have enumerated, and STILL advocate false doctrine.

Dave, as I see it the fruits of the Spirit enable us to know that we are lead by the Spirit. I don't concern myself about the spiritual condition of others. I don't look to others for spiritual fulfillment - that is only between God and myself. IMHO doctrines divert the soul from the essential part of religion - recieving and distributing the love that comes from God. They become a tool of psycological defense mechanisms protecting the persons from becoming aware of what s/he does not want to know. They become a substitute for the real thing. It is very difficult to lose confidence in the beliefs one previously held dear - but we all have to grow and once one comes through it s/he can thank God for his wonderful leading.

Quote:

Yes, the false christ, and perhaps these other figures, will give outward evidence of the fruits of the Spirit--but it will be a counterfeit.

All the more reason, friends, to become aquainted with the real thing - to have a relationship with the real Holy Spirit. You can judge his reality by the fruits he produces in you, and you will know if you are faking it in order to fool someone. If you have no fruits (love, joy, peace, etc.) then you haven't surrendered to the Holy Spirit.

(BTW, it is becoming apparent to me that these fruits are not just emotions or feelings. They have the added dimension of being values that we take into our hearts, they are guiding principals, they motivate behavior, attitudes, they become our very being - thanks to the Holy Spirit who does all this for us.)

~d.allan

[David Koot]

Dave, as I see it the fruits of the Spirit enable us to know that we are lead [sic] by the Spirit.

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

THESE are the tests of the spirits, by which we may know if they are of God.

The Pharisees tested Jesus according to the Mosaic Law which interprets and enforces the Ten Commandments, and by that Law "righteously" judged Him worthy of death.

To witness God to us as He really is, as Paul said, "being in the form of God, [Jesus] thought it not robbery to be equal with God", it was necessary for Jesus to break the first three commandments of the decalogue during His entire ministry.

They are:

(1) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

(2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness (of any thing) that (is) in heaven above, or that (is) in the earth beneath, or that (is) in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God (am) a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth (generation) of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(3) Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. [KJV-Bible - Exodus 20:3-7]

Indeed, your formula above would also result in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ if applied under Mosaic laws and ordinances by "righteous" individuals.

The commandments of Christ are listed in the Sermon on the Mount, and they teach each of us individually how to interpret the Ten Commandments as God Himself would have us apply them.

I don't say this out of rancor, but out of an urgency born of Christ. Our church does not teach nor does it follow the commandments of Jesus Christ outlined in Matthew chapters 5 thru 7.

It is not an impossible task to examine the Word of God honestly and honestly evaluate our own performance before God.

We do lip service to God by "acknowledging" that all have sinned and claiming that we are included, but we hold fast to the errors men teach and make a sad mistake when we separate ourselves from those "other sinners".

By doing so we judge the Spirit of God within according to the punitive laws of Moses rather than by emulating the commandments of Jesus Christ that demand self-sacrifice from us even unto persecution and death.

Jesus said:

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: So is every one that is born of the Spirit."

As it says in Zechariah, in 30 years, 1 prophetic month, Jesus learned that "three shepherds" must be "cut off" if He was to make Himself equal with God. These are the three laws He knew He must break.

He did so for our sakes.

Now it's interesting that the Jehovah's Witnesses have a tradition of shunning, of only accepting anything from God that comes through their designated "144,000" via the Watchtower Magazine.

Perhaps consensus among a similar Adventist "144,000" peers is what you would like to see in Mrs. White's church.

Casey

[David Koot]

The Pharisees tested Jesus according to the Mosaic Law which interprets and enforces the Ten Commandments, and by that Law "righteously" judged Him worthy of death.

Actually, they couldn't find any violation of the Mosaic Law, although they tried to pin that on Him throughout His ministry. He perfectly fulfilled that law, as the perfect Sacrifice.

[bevin]

Quote:

He perfectly fulfilled that law, as the perfect Sacrifice.

Since there is a significant amount of personal opinion involved in deciding whether a Law such as "Honor Thy Mother..." has been broken, His perfect adherence to the Law would not stop others judging Him guilty of breaking them...

[CaseyButler]

David:

What do you think, is God All-Powerful, is God really God?

Do you suppose that if Jacob was meant to be the first-born, that God had the power to bring Jacob from the womb before Esau?

Why would God use the ruse of "bearing false witness" to bring about His Will?

It makes no sense, does it.

Yet God permitted this story of His participation in fraud to be widely disseminated, because indeed God loved those who disseminated and believed it.

There are the Ten Commandments, which the Jews understand as "Ten Chapter Headings", or "Ten Words"... And there is the Mosaic Law which interprets the keeping of the Ten Commandments according to the whims of man.

Even today, for example, in Judaism there are 613 mitzvot, laws interpreted from the books of Moses which outline how the Ten Commandments are to be kept.

See http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

Jesus was fomenting peaceful revolution for God, remember.

Indeed the Gospels detail Jesus' own breaking of the Mosaic Law, as well as His encouragement of the people to do the same.

He did so in order to direct and authorize people to the worship of Himself rather than to the fearful and tyrannical God the Jews had developed by attempting to be shepherds in place of God.

Jesus is the Truth about God. His teachings are the Truth about God. The Bible is the Truth about how mankind has manipulated God's Character to its own advantage as God has stood by waiting for us to reach our inevitable self-destruction as we continue rejecting God's teachings and Law.

We still attempt to be shepherds in place of God with our pastors' and scholars' and thelogians' interpretations of the keeping of the Ten Commandments.

You are speaking from a Christian perspective, as one who has already been set free by Jesus Christ to believe anything you choose to believe about God, as long as you believe God sent Jesus to us.

The Jews, however, had only the Mosaic Laws which were administered and enforced by the elite of whichever sect of Judaism one belonged to.

The Pharisees had no choice but to do what they did, Jesus continuously taught contrary to the Mosaic Laws.

From condemning stoning to breaking the Mosaic Laws of what could and could not be done on the Sabbath, the Gospels are ABOUT Jesus breaking the Ten Commandments as interpreted through the Mosaic Laws.

For example: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." [KJV-Bible - John 5:18]

Today we break the first three commandments with impunity, thanks to Jesus.

According to Mosaic standards Christians put Jesus before God. Though we do this by God's own approval because we can identify with Jesus, we know His Life and Words, whereas God's character in the Bible is so muddied and contradictorily represented by errant men as to make our understanding of His will for us impossible.

By doing so we worship an image of God, again by God's approval. We worship the known Character of Jesus Christ rather than what we are told in the books of Moses is the tyrannical and un-understandable Character of a God who appears to inflict death and suffering on any whim.

By Mosaic standards we take God's name in vain regularly, assigning His Power to Christ, and Christ assigned that Power to us by making all who believe His words ONE with God as He is.

Given in the vein of the prophecy Jesus pointed out to us "smite the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered", here is that Messianic prophecy from Zechariah, showing Jesus that He must overcome those first three commandments during His lifetime, prior to His ministry:

"Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter;"

"Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed (be) the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not."

"For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver (them)."

"And I will feed the flock of slaughter, (even) you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock."

"Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me."

"Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another."

"And I took my staff, (even) Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people."

"And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it (was) the word of the LORD."

"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give (me) my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty (pieces) of silver."

"And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty (pieces) of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD." [KJV-Bible - Zechariah 11:4-13]

Our church has done with doctrine what the Jews did. But we can undo that.

Casey

[Gail]

Just wanted it to say "Holy Spirit instead of Holy Sprit (in the title)

better better

[David Koot]

Hmmmmm . . . seems that some of the more recent posts have gotten off track. This thread is about 'Written Word vs. Holy Spirit'

Reviewing the progress of the thread, essentially, I find the following so far:

Positions taken that the Bible is more important, as the test of relationships;

Positions taken that relationships are more important, because with relationships the Bible means little;

Positions taken that a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit is more important than just reading the Bible;

Questions raised about how a person may know if s/he is being guided by the Holy Spirit;

Response that the person experiences a warm feeling, and emotions of love, joy, peace;

Question about how a person can know if the warm feeling and emotions are the result of the Holy Spirit's leading, since satan can counterfeit them.

Response that the fruits of the Spirit are evidence that they are from God.

Question if the fruits of the Spirit listed in the post can be counterfeited by satan. (a partial list)

Observation that the presence and work of the Holy Spirit will manifest itself in ALL the fruits of the Spirit, including those not listed in the post.

Observation that the Spirit of truth will manifest Himself consistently with the truth He has inspired in the Bible

Observation that the fruits of the Spirit is one test, but not the only test. Other tests of validity include, 'to the law and the testimony.'

Also an observation that if the fruitage of a person's impressions leads him or her away from God's remnant church, then that is evidence that the impressions are not from God.

Dave

[CaseyButler]

There are many, many references in the Bible to a "remnant people", a people "scattered" all over the world by organized and apostasized religions acting as God...

But there is only one reference to a "remnant church" in the entire Bible.

It reads as follows:

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot."

"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

"Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and (that) the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." [KJV-Bible - Revelation 3:14-22]

Note: Jesus WILL spew this church out of His mouth. He is standing at the door of individual hearts, not at the door of any doctrines made up by men.

Again, Jesus says He WILL spew this church out of His mouth.

It's a done deal.

Any who are sitting in wealth of any kind, satisified with themselves, refusing to submit their man-made beliefs in man-made doctrines to trial by the Fire of the Holy Spirit and God's Love for His creations, are misleading themselves if they don't believe that this wonderful Man who gave all for the lowest, meanest, poorest, human being on earth, will indeed spew them out of His mouth.

Our church can weave and dodge and ignore, but our fruits are manifest as the fruits of Laodecia.

And we all know it.

Soon we will see the meek and poor in Spirit inherit the earth as we reach that point of self-destruction so long predicted by God. We will see the poor of Africa and Asia and Central and South America, of Europe and the Middle East... all of the people who have borne the burden of the wealthy, fat Christians who refused to listen to God, now exposed for what we are. Evil self-serving people who exalt themselves as Satan exalted himself over the people of God less fortunate, yet claiming the blessings of God all the while...

We will see them with Jesus Christ, celebrating in joy the victory of God over those who portray Him as it pleases them for their own selfish purposes, to feel superior to others, to line their purses and make a dollar.

The "remnant church", if it doesn't wake up, if it doesn't listen to Mrs. White and buy that Spiritual gold tried in the fire from Jesus, is slated to be the world's object lesson on the inherent evil of mankind without God among us, ie. how greedy and selfish people could be flim-flammed by "preachers" into resurrecting the religion of the Pharisees in only 2,000 years, even though they had the love and sacrifice of Christ to guide them this time.

Wait and see. I will wait with you.

God bless you,

Casey