Woody Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 YES ... Now I agree with you. But the plan of salvation is so simple it doesn't need much study. HE died. I'm saved. Not to complicated. Even those who are not very intelligent can grasp that. If it was something complicated then the less intelligent would not be able to be saved. So ... it doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand the love and sacrifice of Jesus. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
David Koot Posted January 26, 2007 Author Posted January 26, 2007 Nobody on this thread has done so, David. Quote
David Koot Posted January 26, 2007 Author Posted January 26, 2007 all that truth stuff is nice but it will not have anything to do with our eternal destiny. And what if you believe a lie? And how will you know if it is truth or a lie? Since it will be so convincing as to "deceive, if possible, the very elect"? How will the elect know whether it is truth or a lie? Quote
Woody Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 Quote: Quote: And that truth is the same for any student anywhere in the world. I would point out that I know of NO two people who see eye to eye on religious matters. So .... it is Not the same for any student anywhere in the world. And we will not know who is right and what "truth" is until Jesus comes. This pious attitude of claiming WE have the truth ... is Hogwash. We will not know for sure if OUR understanding is correct until Jesus comes. We can claim we are following it to the best of our ability and knowledge. But let us get off our high horse. And the bottom line is it simply doesn't matter. We may be right or we may be wrong. But the Blood of Jesus covers us and that is ALL that matters. I don't think this pious elitist attitude of having the TRUTH will attract anyone or anything but flies. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 26, 2007 Posted January 26, 2007 Originally Posted By: Redwood all that truth stuff is nice but it will not have anything to do with our eternal destiny. And what if you believe a lie? And how will you know if it is truth or a lie? Since it will be so convincing as to "deceive, if possible, the very elect"? How will the elect know whether it is truth or a lie? I am VERY sure that I believe a lie. I simply do not know all that is truth in the Bible nor do I have to. I will know if it is truth or a lie when Jesus comes. I am sure I am decieved. But it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that I accept the life and sacrifice of Jesus on my behalf. I accept Him even though I do not fully understand Him. I accept Him on Faith. Therefore I am saved. I will have all of eternity to learn more and more of Jesus. I will do what I can Now. But with the understanding that much of what I believe from my studies will most likely be shown to me as wrong once I get to heaven. Yes ... we have the Bible but for each text there is a different interpretation. I will do the best I can to understand my study but I will not be so pious as to claim that I know the truth. The Holy Spirit is here to show each person what that person needs to know. But I think we feel we have and need far more that what the Spirit thinks we need. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 26, 2007 Administrators Posted January 26, 2007 ...Didn't Jesus say, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free?" Didn't He promise to send the Spirit of truth to guide His people into "all truth"? In the Bible, God has revealed to us the truth we need to prepare for heaven... Yes, and Jesus also said "I am the Truth. The Truth that we need is revealed in a person and is a person. The Spirit of truth is the spirit of the personal God. The Truth that sets us free is Jesus. To know him, THE Truth, is all about relationship. The knowing of truth is a knowing of Who not what. Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
David Koot Posted January 26, 2007 Author Posted January 26, 2007 Very well . . . tell me, how do you know who Jesus is, what He is all about, and what it means to have a relationship with Him? Permit me to give an illustration. I have been studying with a man and his mother here in town. Shortly before I started studies with them, the Mormon missionaries came along and started studies with him. (Apparently, when they found out I had begun studies with him as well, there was some consternation in their camp.) Okay, so they have been giving him study assignments in the book of Mormon. He told me this week what they have been urging him to do. "Ask God to show you if these things are true." Millions of people have bought into that, and have concluded that 'these things,' the teachings of the book of Mormon, are true. And their church is now known as the "Church of Jesus Christ." A Christ-centered faith? A big emphasis on knowing Jesus, and Jesus is the Truth, and He will show you if 'these things' are true? So, are they true? Is the book of Mormon true? Its adherents profess to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and on the basis of that personal relationship and experience with Jesus, they attest the book of Mormon to be true. Is that the end of the question? If so, then the book must be true! Of course, it contradicts the Bible, and many people would say that the Bible is true. ARe they both true, on the ground that adherents of both profess a relationship with Jesus, and claim that both books contain the truth as it is in Jesus? Quote
David Koot Posted January 26, 2007 Author Posted January 26, 2007 The only thing that matters is that I accept the life and sacrifice of Jesus on my behalf. Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 26, 2007 Administrators Posted January 26, 2007 Dave, You set this up and have been hammering away on this nail for 17 pages now. I would like to interupt this avalanche of verbage with a simple question. Why is this so important to you that you should expend so much time and effort on it? Whilst you are mulling that over consider the metaphor for his relationship with us so often used by God in Scripture - marriage. There is a key to the kingdom to be found there... Which is more important, your knowledge about your mate or the relationship? Is your realtionship with your mate merely defined by the extent of your knowledge about her? Or is there something else, quite intangible, and definitely apart from a perfectly correct cognitive comprehension of all avaialble information about her? And what's love got to do with it? If truth/knowledge trumps relationship, then heaven will be a huge library. If relationship is what its all about, I think it will be quite something else indeed! Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
David Koot Posted January 27, 2007 Author Posted January 27, 2007 Dave, You set this up and have been hammering away on this nail for 17 pages now. I would like to interupt this avalanche of verbage with a simple question. Why is this so important to you that you should expend so much time and effort on it? One might ask you the same question. Initially, I posed the question about which is more important. You responded. You have continued to 'hammer' on your theme even until now. Why? Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 27, 2007 Administrators Posted January 27, 2007 ...One might ask you the same question. Initially, I posed the question about which is more important. You responded. You have continued to 'hammer' on your theme even until now. Why? Dave, that was not responsive to my post, now was it? Now I have to add, why be evasive? Really, I was honestly asking a serious question. I genuinely am at a loss to see what your point is in continuing to push this issue. Why does it seem to matter so much to you to convince everyone that the written word is more important than relationships? But if you would rather not answer my simple question... This reminds me of a statement someone made once in trying to emphasize how vitally important the truth is. The context was Adventist truth - the Adventist message. In driving home his point that the truth was more important than absolutely anything else he said, "I love this truth more than life itself." (Truth trumps life.) To which I replied, "So what's the point of truth without life?" Think about it. And finally Dave, how about a little perspective here... Not accounting for length of posts (which would only add substantially more emphasis to my point) this is merely my 10th post in 17 pages on this topic since you started it December 11 as compared to your 58 posts. I have been more of a detached observer occasionally interjecting a point. (Also, I think a perspective on comparative hammering away on the overall forum seems further to reinforce perceived tendency toward dogged determination to repeatedly drive home a handful of points. You have posted more than 1400 times in 10 months since you joined this forum. I have not even broken 400 yet in 6 1/2 years!) Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
cricket Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Quote: (Also, I think a perspective on comparative hammering away on the overall forum seems further to reinforce perceived tendency toward dogged determination to repeatedly drive home a handful of points. You have posted more than 1400 times in 10 months since you joined this forum. I have not even broken 400 yet in 6 1/2 years!) Wow. That's too bad. We'd surely like to hear more from you. David's been around for years, not just months. His "registration" date does not reflect his length of stay. By the way, the only way a person can know if a sound is made when a tree falls in the forest is if he's there to witness it. Quote
David Koot Posted January 27, 2007 Author Posted January 27, 2007 Why does it seem to matter so much to you to convince everyone that the written word is more important than relationships? Quote
David Koot Posted January 27, 2007 Author Posted January 27, 2007 Which is more important, your knowledge about your mate or the relationship? What is your relationship with your mate based on? Quote
Woody Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 What I don't understand is why things have to turn so personal. We are discussing the Spirit of God and yet ... I don't see much evidence of that Spirit in this forum. Can we return this discussion to something a little more uplifting? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore Which is more important, your knowledge about your mate or the relationship? What is your relationship with your mate based on? This is a productive question. I think it is clearly the relationship based on unity between the couples and the Holy Spirit. Two people working together in unison, united for one purpose ... is far more powerful than one individual. This is the reason that God gave us the blessing of marriage. This is why He wants to be married to us. Thank you for the good question David. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
David Koot Posted January 27, 2007 Author Posted January 27, 2007 What I don't understand is why things have to turn so personal. Can we return this discussion to something a little more uplifting? Absolutely. Let's stick with the issues and not get personal here. Quote
Guest Posted January 27, 2007 Posted January 27, 2007 To me; I see the Bible (written word) as synonomous with whatever the Holy Spirit reveals. The title of this thread is not right. The written word should not "versus" the Holy Spirit, unless one gets "messages" from The Spirit, independent of God's Word. (which I have seen). In other words; our personal relationships need to be held accountable to God's Word. One is not "more important" than the other. The shortest sermon likely ever preached in an Adventist Church, was done by me. It was just three words. "Love one another." This is the endtime message that many will not receive. it adversly affects many personal relationships. Quote
David Koot Posted January 28, 2007 Author Posted January 28, 2007 The written word should not "versus" the Holy Spirit, unless one gets "messages" from The Spirit, independent of God's Word. (which I have seen). Quote
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 28, 2007 Administrators Posted January 28, 2007 Quote: ...I have not even broken 400 yet in 6 1/2 years!) Wow. That's too bad. We'd surely like to hear more from you... By the way, the only way a person can know if a sound is made when a tree falls in the forest is if he's there to witness it. Ah, thanks... But as seems too obvious to me, it is a sentiment not widely held... So I retreat rather than argue others under the table...I am quite able but no longer willing... As for your last, seemingly out of place, sentence I puzzled and puzzled until my puzzler wandered off to climb another tree for a better view of other parts of the forest. I realized that a lot of forest inhabitants are simply alarmed by falling trees and still miss the sound... or misunderstand... Missing the forest I grew up in and the challenge of climbing trees... Oh well, it's just more "Adventures in Missing the Point"... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
David Koot Posted January 28, 2007 Author Posted January 28, 2007 Oh well, it's just more "Adventures in Missing the Point"... And you definitely do seem to have your points, which are quite clear and well known to you, I'm sure. Quote
Woody Posted January 29, 2007 Posted January 29, 2007 Quote: And you definitely do seem to have your points, which are quite clear and well known to you, I'm sure. Cruel. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 29, 2007 Administrators Posted January 29, 2007 ...Bottom line is you are focusing on me--ad hominem--rather than on the issues. Let's keep to the issues. Rather than point to the individual poster, how about the merits of the issues raised in the posts? How about some specific answers to the questions that were brought up? Hmmmm.... Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
David Koot Posted January 29, 2007 Author Posted January 29, 2007 Cruel. Not intended as cruel. Quote
David Koot Posted January 30, 2007 Author Posted January 30, 2007 Just tagging on to the previous post, but speaking generally . . . I think Mr. Battler has provided a good answer to the question initially posed on this thread--which was framed intentionally in the form it was. The fact is that the Bible and a true relationship with Jesus Christ are inseparable components of a unit. To attempt to declare either as 'trump' over the other is simply inaccurate. Cheers. Quote
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