Which Trumps Which?

[jasd]

QR frame:

Per children:

…can’t say that children are trusting, trustworthy, obedient, or are, necessarily, illustrative or otherwise, – of other virtues. They are, however,

innately curious – always with the who? what? where? when? why? how? and other questionings: incessantly so. They seem alway to be…

on quest for knowing. Perhaps,

we might take that page from children together with the text (amongst others)

Jer 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

Is there not something of the subjective in the above text? Okay, so one might demur by,

“Doesn’t that specifically address the prophet Jeremiah?” Well yes, except that

one might question whether Christ’s use of “and” in the following…

Mt 7:12 … for this is the law and the prophets.

is actually a conjugal conjunction – meaning that the law and the prophets, that is, the OT, are essentially the same … and that we, also, are addressed…

[jasd]

>>Let me give you an example. One person studies the Bible, and reads where God calls His people to come out of Babylon and unite with His remnant church. It is right there in Scripture. However, another person, who reads the same Bible, claims that the 'spirit' is leading him or her out of any organized religion.<< [ed]

Does that Bible really say that? Perhaps,

by construction? Anyway…

another might read the same Bible, together with history, and find that Babylon originally worshipped the moon and at its demise had, to a very large extent, reverted to moon worship.

Sin, ruler of both night and day, ascendeth

Zeuspitar, having coursed the heavens bruises carnelian against the western sky

The aspect of Mars and Mithras marks the forehead of their adherents

Marduk approaches – with havoc its trail

Trine, trine, double trine, and conjunct [/kidding ]

Is it not for nothin’ that the crescent rises? Anyway…

another might read the same Bible together with the extraBiblical (as does St Paul in Acts 17:28) and find that Babylon ‘invented’ fractional banking – vulgarly, usury … and together with the contents of Revelation 18, conclude that ‘Babylon’ is a commercial enterprise. Or, another

might search the concordance for references to “great city” and, happenstancely, find just such ‘another’ “great city” referenced. Or, another

might see a correlation between the metal of Nebuchadnezzar’s image and their counterparts… finding that clay/silicone or aluminum could not have

found a correlate fulfillment of prophecy during the Holy Roman Empire.

Or…

That is why a board such as this is so appreciated on a forum of this type: it is the exchange and sharing of viewpoints that might serendipitously – act as catalyst upon a given point.

[David Koot]

. This is another example of you assuming that because someone's walk with Abba is different from yours, it's wrong.

[Clio]

I agree that members of the SDA church who have an intimate relationship with Jesus, who keep His commandments including the fourth, and have His testimony are a sub-set of the remnant church at the end.

To say that one must join the SDA church in order to be saved perverts the Gospel because our salvation would then hinge on something we (humanity) must do. That is not the Gospel of Good News. There is nothing we as humans could ever possibly do to effect our salvation.

The remnant church is comprised of all those who remain true to their belief in Jesus, keep His commandments, and who have the testimony of Jesus as defined in Revelation 19:10.

Remnant is used 91 times in the Bible. Only 5 of them are in the NT.

1) remaining, the rest

a) the rest of any number or class under consideration

with a certain distinction and contrast, the rest, who are not of a specific class or number

c) the rest of the things that remain

(2640)

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: (2640)

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (3005)

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. (3062)

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. (3062)

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. (3062)

(1577) ekklesia {ek-klay-see'-ah} from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564 ek {ek} 1) out of, from, by, away from + kaleo {kal-eh'-o}

1) to call

a) to call aloud, utter in a loud voice; to invite;

2) to call i.e. to name, by name

a) to give a name to

1) to receive the name of, receive as a name

2) to give some name to one, call his name

to be called i.e. to bear a name or title (among men)

c) to salute one by name

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

“upon this rock I will build my assembly of those called by My name”

The same word is used to describe the literal children of Israel in the Sinai desert in Acts 7:38. This should tell you that just as this word is used by Paul to describe the entire body of the Israelite host called out of Egypt, so this word should be applied to all of Spiritual Israel, not a sub-set of Spiritual Israel.

It isn’t until Antioch, in Acts 11:26 where those Jesus identified as being the assembly of those called by His name were termed “Christians”.

Those to whom truth was given were admonished that the Holy Spirit had made them overseers of the church of God purchased with His own blood. (This I believe is the role of the SDA church today)

Romans 16:5 records the assembly of those called by His Name (church) in a home. It is clearly somewhat smaller than all the Christians Rome. The letter is written to all the Roman Christians, there’s no way that they would have all fit in the house of Priscilla and Aquila. He greets the church in their HOUSE, clearly a subset of all Roman Christians.

Testimony of Jesus = Spirit of Prophecy Revelation 19:10 “I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The angel clearly is not a member of either spiritual Israel nor a church on earth, yet he considers himself a brother or another member of the body of those who do.

Prophecy is identified as an individual gift, not a gift to an entire church.

1 Corinthians 14 1- 5; 22; 31-33

Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; *for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification… 22 but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe … 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."

As the latter rain falls, there will be many who will prophesy in Abba's name and according to His will. It would behoove us to become accustomed to testing prophecy against the written Word, and to learn to recognize the signs of a prophet.

[David Koot]

I agree that members of the SDA church who have an intimate relationship with Jesus, who keep His commandments including the fourth, and have His testimony are a sub-set of the remnant church at the end.

[aka]

:sad WoW, Clio ... Think of the scenario of you being married to David and his type of mind.

Consider the scenario which daily comes up with your thinking processes churning away, merging forward in verbal intercourse interaction with his thinking processes churning away....

...wellll ...

....that could surely produce one whale of a court case the media would like to report on.

The domestic saga would even be lucrative for a tv-soap series.

[aka]

Colorado guy says:

The statement 'become like little children' is one that, for me a least, is one of the least talked about, discusssed, debated, etc topics. I believe it says more about us as adults, than we care to talk about.

GWag says :

Thanks for your thoughts Dave. They are good ones, and it appears that you have you eyes open. Same to you, 317. I appreciate both of you, among others. I appreciate the reminder of childlike faith. We Adventists are too intellectually locked, and we need our hearts open to His Word. This will lead us to obedience.

Dave says :

Because so many are no longer solidly grounded in the Word of God, but seek an emotional, an experiential validation of their beliefs, then, when our lives are on the line, when we stand to lose everything, it will be so easy to make a subtle adjustment to accommodate the 'auto-developed reality' which will have been adopted and endorsed by the world. The only safe final authority is God's written Word, understood by carefully and prayerfully studying Scripture, and comparing Scriptures.

TWet says : It's all about relationship.

Toothfairy says :

I like you guys.

I like it when you get together to hash things out.

I like when you give evidence of having studied our Church's stand and you stick to it.

I like it when you stay non-threatening and just say it as it is without hurting others in personal attacks.

That’s quite gentlemanly and should be looked upon as exemplary.

Hereby I fly over and bop each of you on the head with my toothfairy wand and give a toothfairy blessing.

[aka]

Dave wrote : “Paste the posts into Word and run a reading level analysis.”

My info says I have Microsoft Office Word 2003 SP2.

In which menu dropdown does this option appear?

[David Koot]

My info says I have Microsoft Office Word 2003 SP2.

In which menu dropdown does this option appear?

Guten morgen, Toothfairy, and thank-you for the blessing! As for the reading level analysis, getting to it is a bit of a pain. One must first go to the 'tools' menu, then select 'options.' Choose the 'Grammar' section, and make sure the 'Show Readibility Statistics' box is checked. Then click 'Okay,' and go back to the 'Tools' dropdown menu. Click on 'Spelling and Grammar,' then one must wade through the analysis of the document. You can just click 'Ignore' each time something comes up. When the grammar analysis is completed, you will see the Meyer-Kincaid Readability Statistics toward the bottom of the summary.

Dave

[David Koot]

Think of the scenario of you being married to David and his type of mind.

Ahem!!! Veeeellll, vat can I say? On a forum like this, with this type of discussion, I have a special interest in intellectual and academic rigor. Personally, I welcome anyone who has an inquiring mind, who is seeking answers, and who cherishes a love for the truth. Such a person and I, are on the same page. It can be delightful, intellectually stimulating and spiritually edifying to carry forward a discussion with such a person, with antique courtesies and mutual respect.

Dave

[Clio]

Ahh, yes, so that IS it. That IS your position. IOW the 'remnant church' is not an existing denomination.

[David Koot]

That's right David. It's more encompassing than that.

[David Koot]

That's right David. It's more encompassing than that.

[Clio]

I can't. That's just too depressing ToothFairy.

[Clio]

David -

I'm through. You argue, you twist words, you imply and make judgements.

Even the fundamental beliefs, while calling out a remnant church do not go so far as to state that one must be SDA to be saved. They call out the remnant as a subset of the universal church with a special commission.

Quote:

13. Remnant and Its Mission:

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

(my comment here: this is the job of the remnant ->)This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)

Which is what I said, and if I didn't, meant to say, earlier. That the SDA's are a sub-set of all saved with a special commission (only I termed it kind of like the priests in Israel... that's the role of the SDA church today).

As for why *I* left? It really isn't any of your business. Why I haven't re-joined is also a private issue having little to do with doctrine.

And for the last time, I don't hear voices.

[David Koot]

David -

You argue,

[David Koot]

Something seems to have gelled over the course of this discussion--and tying it together with other discussions on the forum. To me, this is quite exciting--the thrill of discovery. Permit me to give an illustration of how significant this find seems to this observer. Some decades back, astrophysicists were stumped for years by the spectra of deep sky objects, which appeared to be missing the most basic elements of stars, such as hydrogen gas. The hydrogen line simply wasn't there. One day, a Cal Tech astronomer from Holland was poring over the spectrograph. Suddenly, he saw it. The hydrogen line, staring him in the face, but 'red-shifted,' that is, appearing to the right of where it should have been, due to the Doppler effect. In his excitement, he jumped up and ran out into the hallway to share his finding with other scientists. The rest is history.

For some time, I have been puzzled by certain patterns which seem to recur on this forum. Now, I think I have found a solution, and I am excited about the discovery. The posts by Olger and John317 have helped it gel, as well as posts by Clio. More information needs to come out, but the pattern seems to appear.

I perceive two different types of approaches. One approach is objective, and MINIMIZES the role of the individual student. The WORD is exalted, the WORD is the focus, the individual fades into the background. Serious discussion, questions about a particular understanding of the Word, takes place, without offense or rancor, BECAUSE the focus is on the objective Word, NOT on the student.

The other approach to discovering truth seems to place more emphasis on the individual. Here is what I have seen happen. A person states a position on a particular topic. While the Bible is referred to, and quoted, somehow in the process, something is different. I can't quite find the words to describe it, but I have seen it in practice. When the person is asked to provide objective support for the views, offense is taken!!! That is in contrast to those using the first approach. I conclude that the reason is that the first approach focuses on the objective data, and not on the individual, whereas the second approach tends to involve the individual as authority for the position. Thus, requests for objective support are perceived as personal affronts and put-downs, eliciting sarcastic and demeaning response! And, the focus on the individual in the response--'your opinion' vs. 'my opinion,' rather than refer to and compare objective sources, as well as the notion that a person's opinion has equal value to those sources.

The solution I would propose is to lose sight of self, take the focus off the individual, approach the study of the Word with self-effacing humility.

Dave

Dave

[olger]

Thank you for that thoughtful analysis, friend Dave. I have been observing our church for 17-years and it is a wonderful message He has given us. God led me here with His word in 1988.

Today’s church finds within it advocates of an ecumenism that downplays doctrine as divisive, substituting experience as the universal solvent that dissolves the differences. Rather than going to the Bible to work out what it actually is teaching, the rigors of such study can be avoided by referring the matter to experience. Not “What does the scripture say?”, but “How do you feel about it?”

A response may be "You feel that way about it, I see it this way, I suppose it really doesn’t matter." While a place exist for such amelioration of interest in minor issues friends, in matters of high significance they cannot be resolved on the basis of experience alone. In fact, experience is treacherously deceptive. And what may make me feel good may not be related at all to what God would have me doing.

I'd like to end with something more upbeat. What is needed is that we would anchor our beliefs in the Word of God and allow it into our hearts. You said it well (better than I did) in your closing sentence. We are good, perhaps too good at relating intellectually to the Word, but it needs to penetrate our hearts. This will build strength and maturity into the Advent Movement.

Lord bless each one,

olger

John 15:16

[David Koot]

Well said, I believe that is what Clio is trying to get at.

The topic of this thread about 'Trumping' was basicly a setup.

[David Koot]

Incidentally, Kittel, v. 3, contains an excellent article by K.L. Schmidt on ekklesia, starting at p. 501 and continuing to p. 536. In that article, the origin of the word, its derivation and its usage in a variety of contexts and venues, is examined. Theological Dictionary of the NT, Gerhardt Kittel (ed.) v. 3.

[Tom Wetmore]

David,

It seems rather clear to me that you have rather successfully and single-handedly confirmed Clio's points she posted about you on the 21st...

Clio clearly said she was done, but you continued in a rather unseemly fashion beating a dead horse...

In keeping with that figure of speach, there is a bit of equestrian wisdom that comes to mind - When the horse dies, the ride is over, so dismount...

Give it a rest...

[David Koot]

David,

It seems rather clear to me that you have rather successfully and single-handedly confirmed Clio's points she posted about you on the 21st...

Clio clearly said she was done, but you continued in a rather unseemly fashion beating a dead horse...

[David Koot]

I would like to explore further the crucial issue of how we understand God's will. We understand, I think, that the written Word, the Bible, is the authoritative expression of God's will. What is the role of the Holy Spirit in helping a person understand the written Word? In what way does the Spirit operate? How may one recognize the Spirit's voice, and know that it is, indeed, the Holy Spirit and not something or someone else? Granted, the Bible is the test. But this issue seems much deeper than that simple answer. How about the idea that the Spirit guides a person't understanding and interpretation of Scripture? I would be interested to know what John317, Olger and others think.

[LifeHiscost]

I would like to explore further the crucial issue of how we understand God's will. We understand, I think, that the written Word, the Bible, is the authoritative expression of God's will. What is the role of the Holy Spirit in helping a person understand the written Word? In what way does the Spirit operate? How may one recognize the Spirit's voice, and know that it is, indeed, the Holy Spirit and not something or someone else? Granted, the Bible is the test. But this issue seems much deeper than that simple answer. How about the idea that the Spirit guides a person't understanding and interpretation of Scripture? I would be interested to know what John317, Olger and others think.

"But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness, Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge].

And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.

If we live by the [Holy] Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. [if by the Holy Spirit we have our life in God, let us go forward walking in line, our conduct controlled by the Spirit.]

" Gal 5:22-25 AMP

When making decisions large or small, these are the guidelines I look for within myself to give evidence whether my choices are based solely upon personal desire or are a product of promises being fulfilled partially as a result of the invitation for the guidance and wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Mistakes may still occur but when the effort is made to keep my actions in line with present knowledge of the Holy Word, God's willingness to intervene when that danger arises, seldom do circumstances prevail that cannot be contained within the context of rational behavior.

[David Koot]

Okay, but still . . . when it comes to understanding the Bible, how does one recognize the Spirit's guidance? Take the example of someone who claims to receive dreams, which guide him or her to interpretations of Scripture--even allegorizing Scripture. What are the guiding principles to help a student discern whether or not it is, indeed, the Spirit's voice?