Which Trumps Which?

[David Koot]

I follow the Biblical instructions.

I start each day with prayer, asking for discernment, wisdom, and the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit according to the words of Jesus in John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Then I seek out the compendium of what the Bible has to say on the topic, everywhere in it's pages . . . For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little.

[Woody]

David said "How do you know if your work product is accurate and valid? "

You know what is true based on your study, experience and how the Lord impresses you. It will be Bible based because that is the topic of study. But, we all interpret the Bible differently. So ... the Bible is the beginning not the end. The end is the confirmation you get from Prayer and Communion with God . He will send His Holy Spirit to IMPRESS you. So ... I guess you could say the final word on truth is an impression from the Holy Spirit.You could argue that it is also the beginning and the middle.

To say the Bible is YOUR basis of truth and anyone that doesn't see things as you do is wrong seems very arrogent. It is to exclusive for my belief and faith. I believe that God is big enough for many different thoughts. As long as they accept Jesus as their Saviour then He will save them. In fact they may not even need to know that much. Jesus knows and judges our Hearts. He does not judge us based upon our Cognitive Processes or ascents.

I may be hearing you incorrectly Dave ... but it sound close to saying that your research has shown you that YOUR way is the only way and all others are not filled with the truth so they are lost. I reject that. And I hope you are not saying that. My purpose in all the posts are to point out this fact that we are not saved by our knowledge but by what is in our hearts which needs to be that we accept Jesus as our Saviour.

We don't understand the ways of God and will not fully understand all truth untill we are in Heaven.

[David Koot]

So ... the Bible is the beginning not the end. The end is the confirmation you get from Prayer and Communion with God . He will send His Holy Spirit to IMPRESS you. So ... I guess you could say the final word on truth is an impression from the Holy Spirit.

[David Koot]

My purpose in all the posts are to point out this fact that we are not saved by our knowledge but by what is in our hearts which needs to be that we accept Jesus as our Saviour.

We are not saved by our knowledge, but without the knowledge of God's truth, we may be lost in the end. IN the final crisis of our faith, our safety will be in knowing God's Word and following it.

[Woody]

Thank you . But, I think I am only more confused at your belief.

I have been talking about salvation and you are talking about "safety" .I think you are referring to this when you say we may be "lost" in the end because our "safety" is in the Word.

At least in the beginning you say we are not saved by our knowledge. I don't really know which you believe. Can you explain?

Do you believe we are saved by our knowledge or not. You appear to say both here.

My personal belief is that we are saved by one thing and that is the Blood of Jesus. Not our knowledge. As I stated ... Jesus knows our heart and if it is in our heart to serve God then we will be saved without the knowledge.

[olger]

Hello dear ones:

It is not the Word that is on trial by the "spirits." It is the "spirits" that are on trial by the Word.

"there is no truth except what is truth for you personally." This is a statement of auto-developed truth, as if there is such a thing in the Lord's Kingdom. It exactly parallels the postmodern mindset which says "That may be true for you.."

"Truth for the church keeps changing." Subjective truth changes constantly. Objective truth is external, timeless, and unchanging. The church has power & life only as we accept God's objective truth.

"So there is no absolute truth that We can understand." This is an unsettling statement and it is getting more common in the wider currents of society.

[Woody]

There is a TRUTH. Jesus is the TRUTH.

And the time in which we will fully understand the truth is in heaven.

Sure we will get a glimpse of the truth now. And that will be enough. Should we continue to study and show ourselves approved unto God ? YES.

But, Praise God ... HE saves me despite my lack of knowledge.

[olger]

Praise God indeed for His salvation. Where would we be without it?

Where would we be without His ongoing grace to obey His requirements? We would return to the mire.

bless you,

olger

[Woody]

Well said Olger. Praise God for His Salvation.

God has so much love for His people that at the beginning He set a time for His coming that would allow the most people possible to accept His sacrifice (salvation) for them.

He is not waiting for us to gain a complete knowledge of scripture. The Jews thought they had that. But, he is waiting for us to simply accept Him.

Ellen White was shown the exact date of Christ's Coming. Was that knowledge any help to her ? NO. Her focus was for as many to accept Jesus as their savior as soon as possible.

REDWOOD

[Tom Wetmore]

It seems that it bears repeating what I posted at the very begining of this discussion. Epsecially note the final Jesus quote --

Which will endure on in to eternity? The Bible or relationships? Of what importance will the Bible be on the other side of the second coming? Why does God go to all the trouble to save us? To prove His word, the Bible, to be true, correct, trustworthy, or whatever? Or to reconnect a broken relationship with mankind?

The culmination of the message of Revelation is this:

Quote:

Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

That is some kind of relationship!!

And in terms of your question, as recorded in John 5 (reaed the whole chapter to get the context.) Jesus addressed that issue the first time living with mankind:

Quote:

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life.. These are the Scriptures that testify about about me yet you refuse to come to me to have life. -- Jesus

It's all about relationship.

Tom

[LifeHiscost]

I am sure that ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God. But I also believe that not all interpretation is inspired by God.

I would have to agree with you on both points, but I do find it interesting that there is at least one translation that leaves it open to the individual, as he looks to the Holy Spirit for guidance, to determine whether "scripture", which merely means "writings", includes every word written in the Bible or is referring to only the ideas that are definately from God.

"Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16 ASV

" All the Holy Writings are God-given and are made alive by Him. Man is helped when he is taught God's Word. It shows what is wrong. It changes the way of a man's life. It shows him how to be right with God." 2 Tim 3:16 NLV

It seems to me to be important to recognize that Scripture interpreted by individuals that is not meant by the individual to reveal the love of God and His deep compassion for all whom Jesus gave His life, perfectly expressed through His Son, Jesus,

has to accomplish the purpose for which Jesus came to this earth.

Therefore it is my conclusion, even that Word which is inspired by God, if mishandled by men who profess to be believers, makes the promise of the Word more difficult for men to see. Hence the necessity to depend upon the One Who is closest to the Father and has the responsibility of guiding in the Word.

" "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." John 16:13 NASB

"We have renounced disgraceful ways (secret thoughts, feelings, desires and underhandedness, the methods and arts that men hide through shame); we refuse to deal craftily (to practice trickery and cunning) or to adulterate or handle dishonestly the Word of God, but we state the truth openly (clearly and candidly). And so we commend ourselves in the sight and presence of God to every man's conscience." 2 Corinthians 4:2 AMP

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

"" I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed all the sense of suffering remained."" EW 294

So ... Some will burn for a long time. It does not clearly say how long that will be but there will be TORMENT.

REDWOOD

I'm not sure, Redwood, whether you're including that quote because you trust in Sister White as a Spirit guided person (therefore passing along God's truth) or if it reveals less than the love of God to you.

Speaking as a person who believes in the veracity of Ellen White's writings, I'd like to suggest an idea for your consideration.

First I do not believe our Father in heaven ever concludes through a desire to cause pain, 'Hmmmm, I think this one needs X number of minutes of pain to get the best lesson across." And then in all practical terms, allows it to happen to those who will not be included among the living to see the outcome of the lesson learned.

Secondly, I'd like to suggest there are certain people (or created beings) who have been given marvelous powers among the living to honor and glorify God, but who have subverted those powers for their own ends to, that in practice, oppose the proper order of the universe as set up by the Father of all lights. As such they will use those powers to the bitter end, to defeat the natural consequence of their perverted pathway. When it is time to draw an end to all the living who will not submit to the Creator's original plans, they will use those powers they have been entrusted with to advance the cause of God, as long as they possibly can to defeat the conclusion of their nefarious choices. Sadly some will last longer in fiery torments than others as a result of the powers granted to them for their benefit, being used in opposition to the God Who knows if they were given ten million years, they would only use those years to defend their personal ends developed to defeat the righteousness

of Christ.

"And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,

in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein: and his servants shall serve him;

and they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads.

And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. " Rev 22:1-4 ASV

God bless!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Redwood

"" I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed all the sense of suffering remained."" EW 294

So ... Some will burn for a long time. It does not clearly say how long that will be but there will be TORMENT.

shades of the stuff of nightmares from SDA grade school days

**panics**

[LifeHiscost]

...the Bible is the beginning not the end.

To say the Bible is YOUR basis of truth and anyone that doesn't see things as you do is wrong seems very arrogent. It is to exclusive for my belief and faith.

I would like to know why you think God would give this instruction if we could arrive at what is true through other avenues just as well.

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Mark 16:15 KJV

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." 1 Cor 1:17 KJV

"I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,

by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures..." 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 NASB

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1,2 ASV

Keep looking up!!

[LifeHiscost]

We are not saved by our knowledge, but without the knowledge of God's truth, we may be lost in the end. IN the final crisis of our faith, our safety will be in knowing God's Word and following it.

I'm afraid I have to agree more fully with Redwood on this point, Dave, based on the Bible first, and secondly on the Spirit of Prophecy. While it is true only those who know the Word will be able to go through the final time of trouble successfully, with God, many who worship Him in their love of others will not be called to endure the final throes of evil in this world.

[color:#FF00003] "There will be some in the kingdom of heaven who never heard the name of Jesus" Spirit of Prophecy

[color:#FF00004] "...that no flesh should glory before God.

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:

that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. " 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 ASV

[color:#FF00004] "For all of us have become like one who is unclean,

And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;

And all of us wither like a leaf,

And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."

Isa 64:6 ASV

[color:#FF00004]"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Matt 25:37-40 KJV

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

Ellen White was shown the exact date of Christ's Coming.

REDWOOD

Not to be nitpicky, Redwood, but I have to pass on that.

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:3,36 KJV

If you can convince me that somehow, there would be a time before Jesus comes that would prove different, I might give it further consideration. However to me, the Word proves to be true until Jesus is here to replace the written Word.

Blessings!!

[Woody]

You are so corect ... LifeChiscost ....

Ellen White claims that she was told the date but does not remember it. She states that she had no memory of the date after the vision.

My only point is that even such great knowledge such as that it will not give us Salvation. ONLY the blood of Jesus offers us Salvation. Knowledge can't.

But, I'm glad you picked up on that important point.

REDWOOD

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

...the Bible is the beginning not the end.

To say the Bible is YOUR basis of truth and anyone that doesn't see things as you do is wrong seems very arrogent. It is to exclusive for my belief and faith.

I would like to know why you think God would give this instruction if we could arrive at what is true through other avenues just as well.

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Mark 16:15 KJV

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." 1 Cor 1:17 KJV

"I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,

by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures..." 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 NASB

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1,2 ASV

Keep looking up!!

My purpose with this statement is to say that the scripture themselves are the beginning not the end. What must come is interpretation. And to have that you need the Holy Spirit. To say that YOUR interpretation is the END of the discussion seems arrogent to me. We will not have the END of the discussion until we are in Heaven where we will gain the FULL understandings of scripture.

I believe that the Bible and the Bible Alone is our guide. But it is the interpretations that we will find different with each and every individual. And I have to say that God allows that. He saves us despite our lack of knowledge and despite our sins.

Praise the Lord for loving and accepting me even though my ways are not His ways always.

..............................................................

Redwood

[Woody]

I figured that since some may not believe that Ellen was shown the exact date and hour of Jesus' return ... I will cite the quote here :

AFTER THE VISION SHE WAS ABLE TO RECALL MUCH OF WHAT HAD BEEN SHOWN TO HER, BUT THAT WHICH WAS SECRET, AND NOT TO BE REVEALED, SHE COULD NOT RECALL. AS A PART OF THE SCENE OF WHAT IS TO TAKE PLACE WHEN GOD'S PEOPLE ARE DELIVERED (PAGE 285), SHE HEARD ANNOUNCED "THE DAY AND HOUR OF JESUS' COMING" (PAGE 15; SEE ALSO PAGE 34). BUT OF THIS SHE LATER WROTE:

298

{EW 297.13}

"I HAVE NOT THE SLIGHTEST KNOWLEDGE AS TO THE TIME SPOKEN BY THE VOICE OF GOD. I HEARD THE HOUR PROCLAIMED, BUT HAD NO REMEMBRANCE OF THAT HOUR AFTER I CAME OUT OF VISION. SCENES OF SUCH THRILLING, SOLEMN INTEREST PASSED BEFORE ME, AS NO LANGUAGE IS ADEQUATE TO DESCRIBE. IT WAS ALL A LIVING REALITY TO ME."--ELLEN G. WHITE LETTER 38, 1888, PUBLISHED IN SELECTED MESSAGES, BOOK 1, P. 76. {EW 298.1}

This is from Early Writings Page 298 for those of you that are interested.

Have a great Sunday watching all the good playoff Football games everyone !!! Go 49ers ... Oh ... they missed the playoffs .

REDWOOD

.

[David Koot]

While it is true only those who know the Word will be able to go through the final time of trouble successfully, with God

That is what I was referring to.

[David Koot]

Do you believe we are saved by our knowledge or not. You appear to say both here.

[Woody]

Regarding "What might be an accurate statement is that if it is in our heart to serve God, then God will lead us to whatever knowledge we need. "

Hey ... I like that .... I can live with that statement. Just so we realize that it will be different with each person. I think the minimum is accepting the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins.

[David Koot]

Just so we realize that it will be different with each person.

[Woody]

There are lots of good truths in the Bible. One truth is that we will not know all the truths until we are in Heaven. That is where the real learning happens. Our knowledge here on this earth ... of the Bible ... is only a drop in the Bucket. So ... each person will need to accept different amounts of truth as determined by God and depending upon our time, circumstances and intelligence I suppose.

REDWOOD

[David Koot]

There are lots of good truths in the Bible. One truth is that we will not know all the truths until we are in Heaven.