Which Trumps Which?

[D. Allan]

Quote:

How about the case history of someone who claims the direct guidance of God (either direct or God leading him or her to Scriptures) and in reliance upon that purported guidance, leaves the Adventist church, or renounces the seventh-day Sabbath?

Friend, if you would leave out the word "purported" -... As it is, I'm afraid, no one will provide a case history because they may feel that they might not be believed. IMHO

[David Koot]

"Purported" is used by this student in a technical sense. The use of the word is not intended to make a statement either way. It is simply a restatement of the fact that the jury is still out. As for a person's experience being believed, well, the test of any individual's experience is the written Word. If experience is in harmony with the Bible, well and good. If not, then the Bible gives the final answer, rather than the individual's personal experience or private interpretation.

Dave

[D. Allan]

Quote:

It is simply a restatement of the fact that the jury is still out.

Ok. I understand.

In my experiences the Holy Spirit has wakened me in the night to quote the Bible to me. As a sensation in the room and as a still small voice, an auditory sensation in my head.

Also He sent me to my prayer partner by keeping after me for several weeks until I finally approched him. I didn't want to be a prayer partner actually - but it proved to be a great wonderful experience. What Bible principal would that apply to? I never checked - just obeyed - the "voice" of the Holy Spirit. It is that unmistakeable. Perhaps there is a verse in James that might apply. But I was sent to a specific person.

I don't believe that it is necessary to leave the SDA church in order to follow the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, He might send some people elsewhere, depending on local and personal circumstances.

"Impressions" are always suspect to me. Mystical states are wonderful experiences but the mystical 'sensations' are not spiritually uplifting in themselves unless they point to or involve something beyond the mystical state. Such as loving God, loving others, surrender to God, finding Christ in your very own heart, and so on. That is where the mystic needs to rely on principles such as are found in sacred scriptures.

Not all are prophets, not all are teachers, not all are mystics. Some are students and scholars. All are valuable and needed.

~d.allan

[David Koot]

In my experiences the Holy Spirit has wakened me in the night to quote the Bible to me. As a sensation in the room and as a still small voice, an auditory sensation in my head . . . What Bible principal would that apply to? I never checked - just obeyed - the "voice" of the Holy Spirit. It is that unmistakeable.

David, mein freund, I ask this question from a standpoint of interest: when you received the impressions and sensations, and the still small voice quoting Scripture, what indicia did you rely on to determine the validity of the voice? I ask that because according to Scripture, satan also can present Scripture with a still small voice, and as a sensation in the room. I consider this question very intriguing, and am interested in what you have to say.

Dave

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Redwood

The Bible doesn't have everything.

I perceive this comment to be written by a person who has found the Bible to be inadequate to meet all their needs.

To suggest that because a person who says the Bible does not have specific answers to everything is saying the Bible is inadequate, is makeing a vast leap in assumption.

The assumption may have been erroneous. However I still cannot see the logic in asking God for a Personal audience to ask for answers, when He has already given the answers freely to anyone who wishes to put the effort in reading the Word He has left just for that purpose.

Naturally that wouldn't apply to the person who has no access to the written Word, which there are many who do not have that access as a direct result of the many who do have availability to the Word, but see no importance to help in fulfilling that which will bring Jesus' coming just that much sooner.

"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14 NASB

"Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."

2 Peter 3:11-13 NASB

Regards!

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

I ask that because according to Scripture, satan also can present Scripture with a still small voice, and as a sensation in the room. I consider this question very intriguing, and am interested in what you have to say.

You keep making this claim, when clearly scripture says the opposite - that God does indeed utilize the still small voice within those who seek Him, that He communicates to mankind through visions and dreams, and indeed "Satan" cannot impersonate Him but rather uses pride, jealousy, and ego, not to mention the power of treasure and materialism of the world to tempt man.

Document your claims, David. I challenge anyone here to scripturally document Satan's abilities to mimic God through dreams, or "the still small voice", or hijack inspiration from God to overcome the Holy Spirit from God.

I realize you will refuse, however one must stand up for the Power of God before the doubt cast by "Satan". :-)

Casey

[Woody]

Casey ... I would challenge you to document what you believe. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Quote:

I challenge anyone here to scripturally document Satan's abilities to mimic God through dreams, or "the still small voice", or hijack inspiration from God to overcome the Holy Spirit from God.

[CaseyButler]

Hi Redwood,

Let me get this straight... You want me to scripturally document God communicating through people using the "still small voice", dreams, inspiration, and visions?

Casey

[Robert]

Hi Redwood,

Let me get this straight... You want me to scripturally document God communicating through people using the "still small voice", dreams, inspiration, and visions?

Casey

Aren't you the one who claims visions from God and preaches the heresy that God will force all men to be saved? Yes, you are....

Oh boy, here we go again....

[CaseyButler]

Another non-answer.

I claimed visions?

Perhaps you could document that, while you're at it, Robert.

Why doesn't it bother you that you casually mislead with your words, condemning the character of people you haven't even bothered getting to know as teaching "heresy" from "Satan"?

If there is heresy in our church, anyone who contradicts anything Mrs. White believed is a heretic. There goes our church! :-)

Casey

[David Koot]

I never checked - just obeyed - the "voice" of the Holy Spirit. It is that unmistakeable.

Upon further reflection, it seems to this student that what you have said here is getting right down to the heart of the matter. The words "it is that unmistakeable (sic)."

Why? Why is it unmistakable? How do you know?

Herein lies what may be a fundamental issue of understanding the will of God, recognizing His voice. Here, also, is a FUNDAMENTAL difference between Reformation Christianity and eastern mysticism. Eastern mysticism TEACHES the importance of BYPASSING the intellect, the empirical. I know that because I have read the books and heard it recommended.

The Protestant Christian tradition, however, is quite the opposite. The theme is 'sola scriptura.' The approach to understanding is rooted in empiricism, as indeed was the Renaissance approach to learning. Thus, under the Reformation model, ideas, impressions are tested by the objective written Word. Eastern mysticism teaches that the impressions ARE TRUTH!!!! That they need not be tested by anything else, and in fact should not be.

So, then, David, my friend, is the veracity with which you affirm the experience of the 'still small voice' grounded in objective evidence, or was the voice authority for itself?

Dave

[David Koot]

This thread is long overdue for burial.

Perhaps to you, it may seem so. However, the core issues are justd now--just now coming to the surface IMO. If you choose not to participate, then I hope you enjoy following the discussion.

Dave

[LifeHiscost]

Useing your logic of assumption, no need for prayer to God! All the answers are the Bible. That is His final word!

But thats not what you believe, is it?

"...prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised." Psalm 72:15

KJV

"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." Philippians 4:6 KJV

"I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book."Rev 22:18 AMP

While, in context this is most meaningful as pertaining particularly to the writings in and of the book of Revelation, the greater scope as defined in the meaning of the Word "prophecy" (the declared will and purpose of God) would apply to any of the counsels of God.

Regards!

[Robert]

Casey

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Why? Why is it unmistakable? How do you know?

Jesus explained it by saying, "My sheep know my voice..." Also it is the same Spirit that warmed my heart while reading from the Bible. It is that certain unmistakable voice of love, joy and peace.

[David Koot]

It is that certain unmistakable voice of love, joy and peace.

Without taking a position on the specifics you mentioned, the bottom line appears to be the sense of your heart being warmed, and your experience of described emotions, love, joy and peace.

Then, the warmed heart, and the feeling of love, joy and peace associated with the voice, are your indicators of validity.

Dave

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

This thread is long overdue for burial.

Perhaps to you, it may seem so. However, the core issues are justd now--just now coming to the surface IMO. If you choose not to participate, then I hope you enjoy following the discussion.

Dave

Interesting advice Dave. I wish you had followed your own words when you felt that my thread was a waste of pages. How does it feel to be on the opposite side of criticism?

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Eastern mysticism TEACHES the importance of BYPASSING the intellect, the empirical. I know that because I have read the books and heard it recommended.

That's interesting, Dave. What books have you read?

[David Koot]

That's interesting, Dave. What books have you read?

I don't have those specifics at this time. It came about as a result of in-depth discussions with a contact, who since has moved away. He shared with me books and information, which I read, and which we discussed over a period of months.

Dave

[David Koot]

I should add a little more detail, perhaps. What was presented to me is the concept that to be in tune with God (whomever 'God' may be) we need to bypass the conscious mind, bypass the empirical, bypass the rational. When I asked, how do you know if it is true? I was told, that is the western mindset, wanting to prove or verify something. That is not how God reaches us. Don't try to analyze or verify it.

Dave

[D. Allan]

Quote:

What was presented to me is the concept that to be in tune with God (whomever 'God' may be) we need to bypass the conscious mind, bypass the empirical, bypass the rational.

It seems silly to bypass the conscious mind - if I did that, I would not even be aware of a relationship with God.

There may be some truth to the last part of the statement if the empirical/rational function is equal to the scientific approach. At least in relation to sacred scriptures. For instance the creation stories of Genesis. Most conservative Christians understand them literally by faith, instead of scientifically.

On the other hand, an experimental approach to religion is necessary isn't it? "Taste and see that the Lord is good." "By their fruits you shall know them."

We can use our rational/empirical approach to understand ourselves, but when it comes to understanding God, to approaching God, what good does it do? The message of the Bible seems to me to be that our only approach to a relationship to God is to surrender to Him. Everything.

[Clio]

The still, small voice referenced in 1 Kings 19, of Elijah's experience is unmistakeable.

Elijah had just experienced a storm, a fire, an earthquake, and found not Abba in any of those. But when the still small voice came, he immediately

"And after the earthquake a fire; [but] the LORD [was] not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice And it was [so], when Elijah heard [it], that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave."

1 Kings 19:13... he didn't need any further "proof" as to WHO was speaking. Reverence was in ORDER!

When you walk daily with Abba, when you test what He guides you to against the Written Word, when you pray over it, when you listen, when you apply the biblical principle of out of the mouths of two or three shall things be established, see Matt 18:16, 2 Corinthians 13:1, Deut. 19:15, and 1 Timothy 5:19 for this principle in action in a variety of circumstances including establishing *truth of doctrine* (2 Cor 13:1)and when you have done this over and over and over and over and always His Word is glorified and Abba is made supreme, then you begin to recognize His Voice, in accordance with His Word.

That does not mean that you STOP applying the Word. It means that you recognize the guidance, you continue to prayerfully ask for the confirmations required by scripture... and often you will find that the first one is scripture itself, the second one is from a prayer partner or other Christian with whom you regularly fellowship who had no idea with what you might be wrestling, and if you still need a third witness to nudge you along, then often it will be in the form of circumstances where you MUST step out in faith, and Abba rewards your faith.

You do this enough time with prayer, fasting, earnestly seeking Him, His guidance and being open to how HE chooses to move in your life, and you begin to recognize HIS moving in your life.

And yes... I DO hear His still, small Voice from time to time. And I am always careful to test it against scripture. It is a peaceful blessing indeed when He honors me in this way. But that doesn't alleviate my responsibility as His child to test it against the Bible and wait for the witnesses that establish truth.

Faith is not empirical David. It is experiential. And no matter how you try to smash it into a box, one must experience Abba in order to have a relationship with Him in which one can walk confidently in His guidance without fear.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Faith is not empirical David. It is experiential. And no matter how you try to smash it into a box, one must experience Abba in order to have a relationship with Him in which one can walk confidently in His guidance without fear.

You said that very well.

[Clio]

Then I had help. I'm not usually particularly eloquent.

[Woody]

Clio ... Trust me ... You are eloquent.

It could not have been said better.