Does Behavior Matter for a Believer?

[olger]

After worship today, I participated in a discussion with three other brethren. One of them had recently read an article in Signs or Ministry magazine that indicated that behavior was irrelevant in the Christian life. The reason for this assertion (apparently) was a solitary focus on the justification aspect of the Gospel in the article. Ok. That interests me.

Recently, we have discussed the importance (or not) of lifestyle in a thread that was formed to prove that the founder of Amazing Facts was a legalist (whatever that is).

As I spoke with these three brethren, I asked them if our behavior as believers matters at all. One of them is a teacher in his 50's who was a rebel & atheist before coming to Jesus. Another one is a solid, retired individual who is one of the more humble and objective men I have ever known. The third was a 22-year old youth leader -- a very consecrated young single man.

Now I pose this unloaded question to my fellow believers and friends here. Does behavior matter for a believer?

Some would say no. Some would say yes. Some aren't certain. And some don't care. But what do you say?

[Dr. Shane]

The Bible compares the believer's relationship with Christ to the marriage relationship. We might ask ourselves (or our spouses) if behaviors matters in the marriage relationship? I know my wife has made it quite clear there are things she expects me to do and things she expects me not to do. Perhaps other marriages are different.

[olger]

Hi Shane. That there's not a bad point. So you are saying that behavior matters because it affects the relationship with our Savior (husband)? Good stuff.

olger

[Neil D]

The answers are -

Yes, behavior does matter in that it sets the stage for a group of people to perform at a certain set of standards. Jesus said to the woman caught in Adultery, "Go and sin no more."

No, it does not matter as there are behaviors which can be misleading and the motivation is different than that what the world and the Christian believer would set. For example, the arguement can be made of the believer going into a bar to see another man and be friends in the bar, without drinking. Another example would be that of Jesus being called a "wine bibber"..and he couldn't have gotten that lable if he never went into a "wine bibbing place" [aka bar]

The third answer is- Why do YOU care? What is the purpose of YOU checking on other member's behavior? Don't you think that God can rule over his people better than you checking on thier behavior? Doesn't this indicate that YOU don't trust God to maintain that relationship with His members like He does with you?

Personally, I go with the third answer...It's not up to me to set the standards nor is it up to me to enforce them. God moves people accordingly, and if I were placed in the position of Elder, I would not be so quick to set such standards that will discharge/disfellowship a person out of the spiritual hospital that Christ set up on this earth .

Just my opinion....

[olger]

So.. behavior does not matter because it's nobuddy's business anyway.

Thanks Neil,

olger

[Jerry D Thomas]

Does behavior matter? It matters very much. It matters if you claim to be a follower of Jesus but don't act anything like him. I think we make a mistake when we define the question only as a matter of salvation. Even if you believe that behavior doesn't impact the gift of salvation, doesn't it still matter how you represent the giver of the gift?

If my wife would sign, swear, guarantee that nothing I ever did or said would make her leave me or stop loving me (and no, I don't have her signature on that yet!), I would still behave the same toward her. Because I love her.

If the teachings of Jesus make anything clear, it's that behavior toward other people (the sheep and the goats, the good samaritan, etc.), does matter. In my opinion, behavior toward other people matters more than correct doctrine, more than a proper understanding of prophecy.

"All people will know that you are my followers if you love each other” (John 13:35, NCV).

[D. Allan]

Quote:

In my opinion, behavior toward other people matters more than correct doctrine, more than a proper understanding of prophecy.

i'll 2nd that brother Thomas.

[olger]

Thanks JD. "Even if you believe that behavior doesn't impact the gift of salvation, doesn't it still matter how you represent the giver of the gift?"

Well spoken Sir.

olger

[Bravus]

It's just amazing to me that people are still confused by this relatively simple concept. Behaviour, except the behaviour of choosing and accepting Christ, is irrelevant to our salvation, since He does all of that work. But our own salvation is only part of what God has planned for us: He also plans abundant life for us.

[olger]

Well spoken Brave one. I had faith in you.

olger

[cricket]

Amen to that, Bravus. It's not "works-based grace", but "grace-based works"!

Would love to hear more about the abundant life plans!!

[olger]

"What can I do?"

If that isn't the first question that comes out of your mouth, you haven't experienced grace!

all the best,

olger

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Behavior, except the behavior of choosing and accepting Christ, is irrelevant to our salvation

I have a problem with this view. It sounds a lot like my Baptist friends in college. Romans 1:16 says the gospel "is the power of God unto salvation". That is a life-transforming power. Paul says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor. 5:17). John says, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 Jn. 3:9, 10) and of course James says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (Ja. 2:26) None of these verses says we must be perfect, as most of understand the word, but behavior is certainly connected to our salvation. Works are the result of our salvation. They do not save us but are produced by the saving relationship we have with Christ. That certainly does not render them irrelevant.

Salvation is a result of a relationship with Christ - not works. That said, I believe that there are nonchristians that have such a relationship even though they have never chosen and accepted Christ personally. My Baptist friends would disagree. They do not believe a nonchristian can be saved. Romans 1: 20, 21 seems to say that a relationship with Christ is indeed possible for those that have never heard of Him. So while we are called to preach the gospel to the world, that is not to say that without hearing the gospel, sinful man has no chance at salvation.

[David Koot]

Behaviour, except the behaviour of choosing and accepting Christ, is irrelevant to our salvation, since He does all of that work.

That's not what I read in the Bible. I see a lot about accountability. In fact, those who will stand in the last days will be the ones who have "clean hands and a pure heart." The robe of Christ's righteousness will not be credited to anyone who persists in known sin. Evangelical theology does like to separate forensic justification, salvation and walking the talk. HOwever, the dichotomy is not Scriptural.

Dave

[Neil D]

Quote:

Behavior, except the behavior of choosing and accepting Christ, is irrelevant to our salvation

I have a problem with this view. It sounds a lot like my Baptist friends in college. Romans 1:16 says the gospel "is the power of God unto salvation". That is a life-transforming power. [snip]

Salvation is a result of a relationship with Christ - not works. That said, I believe that there are nonchristians that have such a relationship even though they have never chosen and accepted Christ personally. [snip]

[LifeHiscost]

Would that be in harmony with this counsel?

"It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles."

Romans 14:21 NASB

"...and the LORD said to Moses: “Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat." Leviticus 16:2 NKJV

Some may argue that in context only a prophet or religious leader

has a modicum of responsibility for the behavior of others. However the principle remains the same. Our behavior influences the decisions of others, even to the most severe possibilities, including death.

While it is not our behavior that produces life eternal for ourselves or others, the results certainly can discourage us or others to the point of causing us or others to lose faith in the Lifegiver.

So is behavior relevant? I would say without doubt.

Regards!!

[olger]

Do some people confuse unconditional love, for unconditional salvation?

Former = true

Latter = false

olger

[David Koot]

While it is not our behavior that produces life eternal for ourselves or others,

Our behavior will affect whether or not we receive eternal life.

Dave

[Bravus]

Still amazed

[Beryl]

"Our behavior will affect whether or not we receive eternal life."

May I add just one word to that?

"Our WILFUL behavior will affect whether or not we receive eternal life".

If I CHOOSE to WILFULLY sin, then, without repentance and forgiveness, I won't receive eternal life, because I have CHOSEN to obey the enemy.

If, however, I have CHOSEN to obey God, and unwittingly, by word, thought, or action, make a wrong choice, then I continue to be covered by the robe of His righteousness, and I will be saved.

Beryl

[olger]

"Our WILFUL behavior will affect whether or not we receive eternal life". Agreed.

When we unpack all of our rhetoric, it appears that the question centers around whether or not it is possible to render obedience to the Lord.

Since it is possible to choose disobedience, it must also be possible to choose obedience. Calvinism has grappled with this idea and decided to slay the will of man in order to magnify the will of God. Problem is, this goes beyond the Scriptures.

The God of Calvin is a hypocrite. He says "Let whosoever will come and drink of the water of life freely," while knowing full well that they can't.

regards,

olger

[Gerr]

Does behavior matter for a believer? ABSOLUTELY!

If that is not the case, then we should tear out at least 80% if not more of the Bible, because it deals with behavior.

The Ten Commandments have to do with behavior. The Torah, the Sermon on the Mount, are an expansion of the 10.

All the prophets railed against misbehaviors! After spending 11 chapters on theology in Romans, he spent the rest on behavior! Peter's admonition: submit! To human institutions. To kings. To governors. Slaves to masters. Wives to their husbands. All for the Lord's sake!

Is the Bible talking just outward behavior? NO!!! It is behavior that emanates from a Spirit-indwelt heart! Nothing to do with meriting salvation. Only saved people can truly behave outwardly what is in fact reality in the inward parts.

Gerry

[Robert]

-BC- PK

-TI- Prophets and Kings

-CN- 47

-CT- Joshua and the Angel

-PR- 02

-PG- 588

...He [satan] points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer....They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another.....Justice [the requirement of the law] demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

Doesn't sound like a group of people I would want to let in, but Jesus does....Apparently it's not their behavior, but rather their faith. God doesn't give out partial credit, period!!!! It's either 100% His righteousness, or 100% your righteousness. There's no 40% me and 60% Him. That's what Traditional Adventism teaches. So does Catholicism.

[Robert]

Oh, and one more important item of info:

"Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit...." [EGW]

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

"Our WILFUL behavior will affect whether or not we receive eternal life".

If I CHOOSE to WILFULLY sin, then, without repentance and forgiveness, I won't receive eternal life, because I have CHOSEN to obey the enemy.

If, however, I have CHOSEN to obey God, and unwittingly, by word, thought, or action, make a wrong choice, then I continue to be covered by the robe of His righteousness, and I will be saved.

I agree 100%.