Does Behavior Matter for a Believer?

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

...He [satan] points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer....

Now let's compare that quote from the Spirit of Prophecy to what Beryl has written.

Quote:

If, however, I have CHOSEN to obey God, and unwittingly, by word, thought, or action, make a wrong choice, then I continue to be covered by the robe of His righteousness

Defective characters "unwittingly, by word, thought, or action, make a wrong choice." Because they "unwittingly, by word, thought, or action, make a wrong choice," their characters "present their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer..."

[olger]

"Doesn't sound like a group of people I would want to let in, but Jesus does....Apparently it's not their behavior, but rather their faith. God doesn't give out partial credit, period!!!! It's either 100% His righteousness, or 100% your righteousness. There's no 40% me and 60% Him. That's what Traditional Adventism teaches. So does Catholicism."

I realize what the discussion is here. You seem to be saying that obedience is self-righteousness. They aren't, Friend.

Failure to make this distinction will cause the loss of our children. I could give you a whole series of examples..

olger

[David Koot]

May I add just one word to that?

"Our WILFUL behavior will affect whether or not we receive eternal life".

If I CHOOSE to WILFULLY sin, then, without repentance and forgiveness, I won't receive eternal life, because I have CHOSEN to obey the enemy.

If, however, I have CHOSEN to obey God, and unwittingly, by word, thought, or action, make a wrong choice, then I continue to be covered by the robe of His righteousness, and I will be saved.

I agree. We are held accountable for what we know, not for what we don't know. Unknown sins are covered by Christ's sacrifice.

Dave

[Gerr]

It's just amazing to me that people are still confused by this relatively simple concept. Behaviour, except the behaviour of choosing and accepting Christ, is irrelevant to our salvation, since He does all of that work. But our own salvation is only part of what God has planned for us: He also plans abundant life for us.

The question is not about behavior vis-a-vis one's salvation. IMO, most people in this forum will never claim their behavior as having any merit for salvation. Having said that, does behavior matter at all to the believer?

If I recall correctly, you are a teacher. Does the behavior of your students in your class matter? I would hope you would not grade your students on the basis of their behavior. Would you look askance to disruptive behavior? I would hope so. Would a student's behavior affect his/her grade? Very likely it would. If the student is disruptive, more than likely he/she would not be paying attention to matters that promote good grades.

And who should we expect good behavior? Unbelievers who are ruled by the flesh? Or believers who know better and are supposed to be under the rule of the Spirit?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

...He [satan] points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer....

Now let's compare that quote from the Spirit of Prophecy to what Beryl has written.

Quote:

If, however, I have CHOSEN to obey God, and unwittingly, by word, thought, or action, make a wrong choice, then I continue to be covered by the robe of His righteousness

Defective characters "unwittingly, by word, thought, or action, make a wrong choice." Because they "unwittingly, by word, thought, or action, make a wrong choice," their characters "present their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer..."

Danke, Shane.

[Gerr]

-BC- PK

-TI- Prophets and Kings

-CN- 47

-CT- Joshua and the Angel

-PR- 02

-PG- 588

...He [satan] points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer....They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another.....Justice [the requirement of the law] demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

Doesn't sound like a group of people I would want to let in, but Jesus does....Apparently it's not their behavior, but rather their faith. God doesn't give out partial credit, period!!!! It's either 100% His righteousness, or 100% your righteousness. There's no 40% me and 60% Him. That's what Traditional Adventism teaches. So does Catholicism.

Legalists require 100% law performance; grace only requires HEART performance from sinful but born-again believers to satisfy the Law's demands 100%!!!

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

performance from sinful but born-again believers to satisfy the Law's demands 100%!!!

If it is our performance that "satisifies the Law's demands" then what happened to the sacrifice of Jesus and the Robe of Righteousness? Does the Death of Jesus simply not matter to you? I don't see any mention of it here with regards to what will satisy the Law. Could you better explain if the Death of Jesus is of any importance?

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil

and clearly we are not responsible for other's behavior....only our own...D]

Would that be in harmony with this counsel?

"It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles." Romans 14:21 NASB

[snip]

Some may argue that in context only a prophet or religious leader

has a modicum of responsibility for the behavior of others. However the principle remains the same. Our behavior influences the decisions of others, even to the most severe possibilities, including death.

While it is not our behavior that produces life eternal for ourselves or others, the results certainly can discourage us or others to the point of causing us or others to lose faith in the Lifegiver.

So is behavior relevant? I would say without doubt.

Regards!!

So what you are saying is that my behavior would INSPIRE you to copy or emulate it.

The problem with your reasoning is that while my behavior would INSPIRE you to copy, it still involves a choice on your part...something which I DO NOT HAVE CONTROL OF...

To place responsibility on me for YOUR behavor would cause me to be extremely dysfunctional...something which our church has been for many years and is slowly coming out of.... So, minus inspiration that you get from me, there is absolutely NOTHING that can tie me into your behavior, and thus I am free to act as I will. But because I choose to be a follower of Christ, I choose to take the high road in life as I see it. IOWS, with Christ and I discussing the paths of life before me, it is I who chooses to go in the path that is set before me...If that inspires you, great...if not, no harm done.

As for the Prophet and his behaviors, our church doesn't understanding the Holy Spirit and His ability to influence and inspire from the action of others as well as from the Word...nor how common this is....If this were much more talked about and realized in our own lives, we might be in awe a bit more often...

[Gerr]

Quote:

performance from sinful but born-again believers to satisfy the Law's demands 100%!!!

If it is our performance that "satisifies the Law's demands" then what happened to the sacrifice of Jesus and the Robe of Righteousness? Does the Death of Jesus simply not matter to you? I don't see any mention of it here with regards to what will satisy the Law. Could you better explain if the Death of Jesus is of any importance?

What we do that God accepts is not satisfaction for what the Law demands for salvation. I have made that clear many times. But, like Robert, you keep trying to turn obedience that is a thankful heart's response to the salvation God has provided into merit that deserves salvation. Sooo, for the nth time, let me categorically state again: WE ARE SAVED BY CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you have a toddler that you call to come to you, and the child stumbles several times on his/her way to you, will you castigate the child as only 10%, 40% obedient?

Who is the real legalist? The one who insists 100% law performance from the believer, or the one who graciously accepts as 100% satisfactory, obedience rendered from a grateful heart though in the eyes of men it may not "measure up" to their standard?

Gerry

[Taylor]

Yes, we are saved by grace alone and out of a grateful heart we will produce good works, and we will be so grateful that we will do our best to do what God wants us to do.

[Robert]

Let's let EGW's context define "defective characters". Let me list these sins again:

1] "weakness and folly"

2] "sins of ingratitude"

3] "their unlikeness to Christ"

4] "their own interests above His service"

5] "loved the things of the world"

6] "their selfishness"

7] "their malice"

8] "their hatred of one another"

Many of these sins involve the love of self such as "their own interests"; "love of the world" and "selfishness". Each and every day we considered it quite normal to live for self and put others second. Christ did not!

That is premeditated sin, period. The way many get out of this definition of sin is to simply reject that "self-love" is sin. Kind of like the homosexual saying that his sin isn't sin at all.

[Woody]

Gerry ... to escape the penalty of sin which is Death ... the law requires 100% obedience to the law. This is what GOD says. It is not as you claim ... legalism. Please do not criticize a whole group of people who love God. This is what GOD says. So don't criticize Him.

I have the option to accept the perfect life and sacrifice of Jesus in the place of my sinful life. This alone will merit me eternal life. No works of mine will even be accepted at 10%. It is not my 10% of good works that GOD has been allowed to perform in my life ... plus His 90% to make up the difference.

What saves me is the 100% that His life accomplished. To think that my 10% has any value to place in determining my salvation is simply works on any level. Even if I allowed God to work in my life and do good works through God for 90% . It would still be as filthy rags. What if God worked in me for 100%? Well ... that would be wrong because I would not need a Saviour.

My works that God performs in and through me are not any good towards answering the curse of the law. Only the life of Jesus in my place is of any value. His robe is my ticket to heaven. NOT the works that God does in my life.

[Dr. Shane]

I have known born-again Christians that, because of their past life experiences and hereditary disposition, are at times selfish, resentful, prejudice and self-serving. They act such ways naturally and without premeditation. Christ accepts them as they are and covers them with the robe of His righteousness. Slowly they begin to see for themselves the errors of their ways and by faith receive the power to change. When they see error in their lives, they change. That is the power of Christ.

Sometimes we want to judge these people because they do things that we would never do. However they are not in the same place in their walk with the Holy Spirit as we are. In a loving way, we can share with them our conviction and the reason for it but we ought to remember that we are in the same class as they are. We too are sinners and we too are committing sins that we don't see as sinful. So when we see sin in someone else's life and share our convictions with them, we really are the pot calling the kettle black and should thus be receptive when others return the favor.

[Robert]

Quote:

The one who insists 100% law performance from the believer, or the one who graciously accepts as 100% satisfactory, obedience rendered from a grateful heart though in the eyes of men it may not "measure up" to their standard?

We are accepted "in Christ" and nothing else. No matter how you twist it you are trying to include "works" with your ticket to heaven. How good must you be Gerry, 20%, 50%, 60%? No, 100%! What then are the function of works of faith?

Go to James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. [Now James gives an example]

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

Rahab's faith in God led to action, yet technically speaking she was a prostitute. "Under law" heaven was out of the question, but under grace Christ will point out to the Accuser of the brethren Rahab's work of faith. He will do this in the judgment. Christ will do this to prove her faith, not her law performance. If the latter, no one would make it!

[Robert]

Gerry ... to escape the penalty of sin which is Death ... the law requires 100% obedience to the law. This is what GOD says. It is not as you claim ... legalism.

Ellen too:

-PC- RH

-PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

-DT- 05-07-1901

-AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness

-PR- 09

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He [God] says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

[Woody]

Quote:

“God is not a man, that He should lie.”

Thank you Robert. This clearly tell us who is lying. Satan is the author of lies. He would deceive the very elect if possible.

It is not wise to call God a legalist. OR ... Is He ??

[Robert]

Even if I allowed God to work in my life and do good works through God for 90% . It would still be as filthy rags.

You are right, God will not use some of your works and some of Christ's works (2000 years ago) to get you into heaven. That is a given, at least among us.

However, God will do things in your life (as you continue the relationship) that you will not even be aware of. Because it is His life seen through you, that can't be "filthy rags". But again, I understand your meaning.

[Woody]

Yes ... Thank you Robert. How true and beautiful. But what I was saying is that in regards to the curse of the law and our Salvation ... The work that God does in our life is like filthy rags in regards to meriting us Salvation. God's works in us will be like filthy rages in gaining Salvation. The only thing that will answer the curse is 100% obedience. And that is not a combination of what God does in our life and what He did when He came and lived and died for us.

It has to be totally what He did on this earth and what He did at the Cross.

[Robert]

It is not wise to call God a legalist. OR ... Is He ??

God is not a legalist. God is love....He is selfless. He loves you more than Himself because "in Him" there is no spirit of self-importance, even though He is God. He is "the slave of all"....He "came to serve"....On the cross He loved His enemies more than His own life. Remember, from Christ's perspective, He couldn't see beyond the grave. His Father had forsaken Him. So when He died He wasn't giving up heaven for 3 days for His enemies, but forever. Man, that's love! That's God. Anything outside this selfless love brings death. That's why we are dying. If it weren’t for God's love and grace, our 1st death would be our 2nd death.

Since mankind is fallen and since God can't turn His back on His own love (which the law is an expression), God had to legally fulfill the law instead of making it void. He did this in Christ Jesus. From that view He is very legal!

When you accept this righteousness you stand perfect now and in the judgment. And as you rest in His love a change begins. God wants us to begin experiencing freedom from slavery here and now, but not to save us. It's the cream on the pie. The pie saves. The cream makes life more abundant and it gives glory to God.

So God is legal when it came to fulfilling the law in Christ.

But God is not legal when it comes to our salvation. If He was all of us would have to be little Christs....

[Robert]

The work that God does in our life is like filthy rags in regards to meriting us Salvation.

Okay....

[Robert]

...are at times selfish.

While we can be less selfish, we are never above the princple of self this side of eternity. Here we all fall short of God's selfless love....

Ellen White says that, "There should be less proud self-seeking, less self-importance." [5T, 479]

Does Paul agree?

"Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others." Phil 2:4

But in reality this falls short of God’s love:

"For they all seek after their own interests, not those of Christ Jesus" Phil 2:21

That statement in Phil 2:4 is what I call "practical Christianity" because if we lived Christ selfless life fully, we would be without. If you don't believe me look at His life.

Robert

[Bravus]

Perhaps people misread or misunderstood (or projected issues of their own) onto what I wrote. And I also wasn't clear. When I said our behaviour is 'irrelevant' to our salvation, I meant irrelevant to causing it. What we do does not cause our salvation, Jesus' sacrifice and our acceptance of it causes our salvation.

People tend to then phrase it as 'because of our salvation we will do good works'. I agree with that (it's what James talks about very clearly), but it courts the danger of us thinking that we do good works to win God's favour. I don't agree that that's the case, or at least not fully.

God favours us doing good things, but the things that are good are good because they are good for us. All the laws and the prescriptions and (and proscriptions) in the Bible are the recipe for abundant life. If we live in those ways we will experience maximum peace, joy and the presence of God in our lives. Our relationships will be strong and healthy and so will all facets of our existence.

Jesus has already done everything God requires in order to save us. God has even more gifts to give us than that amazing gift.

[Gerr]

Gerry ... to escape the penalty of sin which is Death ... the law requires 100% obedience to the law. This is what GOD says. It is not as you claim ... legalism. Please do not criticize a whole group of people who love God. This is what GOD says. So don't criticize Him.

Oh yes. He is both. His throne is founded on Justice and Mercy. He is a legalist on the one hand because He is also a God of justice. That is why Jesus died to satisfy the legal aspect of His nature's demand for justice. On the other hand, He is also a God of mercy. In case you didn't notice, the 10c are inside the ark that is covered with the mercy seat. That is NO accident. Mercy triumphs over justice with God everytime!!! That's why He placed man under Grace, not under law!!!

Quote:

I have the option to accept the perfect life and sacrifice of Jesus in the place of my sinful life. This alone will merit me eternal life. No works of mine will even be accepted at 10%. It is not my 10% of good works that GOD has been allowed to perform in my life ... plus His 90% to make up the difference.

What saves me is the 100% that His life accomplished. To think that my 10% has any value to place in determining my salvation is simply works on any level. Even if I allowed God to work in my life and do good works through God for 90% . It would still be as filthy rags. What if God worked in me for 100%? Well ... that would be wrong because I would not need a Saviour.

That's what bugs me. You think the works that God does in the believer is filthy rags! Jesus said, "the Father who dwells in Me does the works." Jn 14:10 NKJ. Jesus also promised, "If you love Me, keep My commandments.And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another HELPER, that He may abide with you forever....He dwells with you and will be IN you." And then again, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make Our HOME with him." Jn 14:15-17, 23. NKJ.

If the works Jesus did were the works of the indwelling Father or Holy Spirit, does not the righteous work that the believer the work of the Godhead alone? Why do you want to keep taking credit for it? Jesus said, "Without Me, you can do NOTHING!!!"

Therefore, it is "God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 NKJ.

Absence of the imparted righteousness of Christ is proof positive that His imputed righteousness was never received in the first place.

Quote:

My works that God performs in and through me are not any good towards answering the curse of the law. Only the life of Jesus in my place is of any value. His robe is my ticket to heaven. NOT the works that God does in my life.

Jesus said, "I am He who lives, and WAS dead, and behold I am ALIVE forevermore." Rev 1:18 NKJ. That LIVING Christ, my dear Redwood, wants to live in you and me. He wants to make a reality what He tells the Universe we are. We are like pigs that have been wallowing in a cesspool. Because we believe and accept God's plan to save us, He pronounces clean, no spot, no wrinkle, no smell. If He does nothing about our filth, that would make Him a liar.

"As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith..." Col 2:6 NKJ. How do we receive Christ? By faith. How do we walk with Christ? By faith. So whether receiving Christ for the first time or walking with Him from the point of acceptance onward, IT IS ALL BY HIS GRACE THROUGH FAITH ALONE!!! No place at any point where man can boast or claim merit!!!

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

God is not a man, that He should lie.

Thank you Robert. This clearly tell us who is lying. Satan is the author of lies. He would deceive the very elect if possible.

It is not wise to call God a legalist. OR ... Is He ??

To quote myself .... Yes ... God is a legalist. It just depends upon how you interpret the word.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

The work that God does in our life is like filthy rags in regards to meriting us Salvation.

Okay....

NOOOOOOOOOOO way, Jose. Perhaps your god will do that, make filthy rags. Read the very first chapter of the Bible. When God does something, it is not filthy rags. It is GOOD. And when He devised the Plan of Salvation, IT WAS VERY, VERY GOOD!!! It was so good it is called THE GOOD NEWS!!!

Gerry