Moderators Gerr Posted March 26, 2007 Moderators Posted March 26, 2007 Originally Posted By: Redwood Gerry ... to escape the penalty of sin which is Death ... the law requires 100% obedience to the law. This is what GOD says. It is not as you claim ... legalism. Ellen too: -PC- RH -PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald -DT- 05-07-1901 -AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness -PR- 09 Complete obedience is the only condition If the newborn believer is obeying with ALL his/her heart, but like any newborn might come up short in the performance, is that reckoned as "complete" obedience or not? Gerry Quote
Taylor Posted March 26, 2007 Posted March 26, 2007 It is true that what God does in our life is very very good. I totally agree...but no matter what we do it can't bring us the merit of salvation, but it can bless others and ourselves. So I guess I could agree with both of you. Quote
Woody Posted March 26, 2007 Posted March 26, 2007 You are so right Taylor. No matter what God does in our lives ... it will always pale in comparison to the life or Christ and it is only the life of Christ that saves us. No matter how much God does in our lives ... it just will not be enough to save us. Only faith in HIS life will save us. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted March 26, 2007 Posted March 26, 2007 "What human power can do divine power is not summoned to do. God does not dispense with man's aid. He strengthens him, co-operating with him as he uses the powers and capabilities given him." DA 535 Yes ... God will help us. But in the end ... it is ONLY the merits of Christ through which we are saved. So ... you may have 35% done in human power and 65% done with God's power but in the end ... you need 100% of what Christ did at the cross. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
LifeHiscost Posted March 26, 2007 Posted March 26, 2007 To place responsibility on me for YOUR behavor would cause me to be extremely dysfunctional... D] The thread , as I understand it, is not whether your behavior is responsible for how others behave, but is your behavior relevant, does it matter. There is no doubt God gives every person free will to do as they choose. Does their freedom to choose determine how others behave? And will we be responsible for how our choices influence others? It seems incontrovertibly true that one's choices definatly are relevant and matter re: other's choices. Ask the families of the eight million Jews who were slaughtered before and during WW2 if Hitler's choices mattered to them. Ask the families of the twenty to twenty five thousand lives lost each year in the United States as a direct result of those who choose to drink alcohol before driving a vehicle. Ask the unnumbered people who die and spend time in the hospital or elsewhere recuperating from gunshot wounds as a result of parties who indiscriminately fire weapons toward targets in close proximity to innocent bystanders, whether the innocent bystanders think the choices and behavior of others matters. It is clear that I am responsible for my own sinful choices. But if you die as a result of my choice to fire a weapon in your direction, whether or not I meant to kill you, ask the family you would leave behind whether they think my choices resulting in your death through my behavior, matter, and whether they want to do something about restricting my continueing freedom to choose without interference by others. I usually use the word "inspire" in terms of influencing people to something better. Role models can inspire. They can also hinder. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7 KJV "For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." John 13:15 KJV Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted March 26, 2007 Posted March 26, 2007 We are held accountable for what we know, not for what we don't know. Unknown sins are covered by Christ's sacrifice. Dave "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9 KJV Not sure how this fits into your reckoning. Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators Gerr Posted March 26, 2007 Moderators Posted March 26, 2007 "What human power can do divine power is not summoned to do. God does not dispense with man's aid. He strengthens him, co-operating with him as he uses the powers and capabilities given him." DA 535 Yes ... God will help us. But in the end ... it is ONLY the merits of Christ through which we are saved. So ... you may have 35% done in human power and 65% done with God's power but in the end ... you need 100% of what Christ did at the cross. Where is the point where I said you or I get any merit? How do you receive the RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST that is IMPUTED to you? Is it not by faith? It is offered to every repenting sinner who believes. That righteousness will not do you one bit of good because it would soon be lost UNLESS CHRIST LIVES IN YOU. How do we receive Christ into the life? Is it not also by faith? CHRIST LIVING IN US IS CHRIST IMPARTING HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS IN US. Sooooooooo, where is your 10% or 35% or 65%? Whether it is imputed or imparted, it is 100% CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS all received by faith!!! It is ALL A GIFT!!! I see nowhere where I can lay any claim of merit to even a fraction of a percentage to something that is given to me as a GIFT!!! Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 26, 2007 Moderators Posted March 26, 2007 It is true that what God does in our life is very very good. I totally agree...but no matter what we do it can't bring us the merit of salvation, but it can bless others and ourselves. So I guess I could agree with both of you. My friend, the works seen in the believer are NOT theirs. They can only say with Jesus, "the Father who dwells in me does the works." Jn 14:10 NKJ. Gerry Quote
olger Posted March 26, 2007 Author Posted March 26, 2007 Dear Redwood: Is there anything more important than your salvation? olger Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Taylor Posted March 26, 2007 Posted March 26, 2007 Originally Posted By: Taylor It is true that what God does in our life is very very good. I totally agree...but no matter what we do it can't bring us the merit of salvation, but it can bless others and ourselves. So I guess I could agree with both of you. My friend, the works seen in the believer are NOT theirs. They can only say with Jesus, "the Father who dwells in me does the works." Jn 14:10 NKJ. Gerry I completely agree. Well said! Quote
olger Posted March 26, 2007 Author Posted March 26, 2007 Amen. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Woody Posted March 26, 2007 Posted March 26, 2007 Originally Posted By: Taylor It is true that what God does in our life is very very good. I totally agree...but no matter what we do it can't bring us the merit of salvation, but it can bless others and ourselves. So I guess I could agree with both of you. My friend, the works seen in the believer are NOT theirs. They can only say with Jesus, "the Father who dwells in me does the works." Jn 14:10 NKJ. Gerry ""What human power can do divine power is not summoned to do. God does not dispense with man's aid. He strengthens him, co-operating with him as he uses the powers and capabilities given him." DA 535 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted March 27, 2007 Moderators Posted March 27, 2007 And the source of that human power is...? "Without Me, you can do zero, zilch, nada, nothing." Gerry Quote
Moderators Bravus Posted March 27, 2007 Moderators Posted March 27, 2007 I suspect a huge amount of our confusion around this issue is due to misapplication of texts. Not picking on Redwood here, but this was a convenient example: "What human power can do divine power is not summoned to do. God does not dispense with man's aid. He strengthens him, co-operating with him as he uses the powers and capabilities given him." DA 535 I don't know the context of this sentence, but if EGW is saying 'toward our salvation', then she is preaching damnable heresy. But I'm pretty sure she is not - I'm pretty sure she is talking about things done on this earth, like helping others or improving our characters. The sentence makes perfect sense in the context of, for example, sitting home praying for the homeless to be fed rather than going to work in a soup kitchen. Quote Truth is important
Robert Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 Originally Posted By: Robert Ellen too: -PC- RH -PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald -DT- 05-07-1901 -AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness -PR- 09 Complete obedience is the only condition If the newborn believer is obeying with ALL his/her heart' date=' but like any newborn might come up short in the performance, is that reckoned as "complete" obedience or not? Gerry [/quote'] "Complete obedience is the only condition" Gal 3:10 "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." Deuteronomy 27:26 ‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ Quote
Robert Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 Whether it is imputed or imparted, it is 100% CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS all received by faith!!! Yes, but here's the thing: What He did in our humanity 2000 years ago is what saves, period. What He does in us after we have accepted what He did in us 2000 years ago cannot contradict or add to what He has already done. Therefore what He does in us now is experiential. If you do not make that distinction you will make sanctification meritorious. Here's some proof: John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Heb 10:5 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body [our humanity] you prepared for me....7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, O God....10 And by that will, we have been made holy [past tense] through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Quote
Robert Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 My friend, the works seen in the believer are NOT theirs. They can only say with Jesus, "the Father who dwells in me does the works." Jn 14:10 NKJ. As you surrender. You left out that part. God doesn't automatically just take over! Quote
Robert Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo If the newborn believer is obeying with ALL his/her heart' date=' but like any newborn might come up short in the performance, is that reckoned as "complete" obedience or not? Gerry [/quote'] "Complete obedience is the only condition" Gal 3:10 "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them." Deuteronomy 27:26 ‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And more: Matt 5:48 "You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt 19:17 "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” Matt 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Rom 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Quote
Woody Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 Yes ... Robert. No Exceptions. 100% PERFECT Obedience is required to answer the curse of the Law. We MUST be PERFECT even as the FATHER is perfect to answer to the LAW. If we are Bible Christians ... this is the ONLY conclusion that we can come to. The Bible is very clear on this topic. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
LifeHiscost Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo My friend, the works seen in the believer are NOT theirs. They can only say with Jesus, "the Father who dwells in me does the works." Jn 14:10 NKJ. As you surrender. You left out that part. God doesn't automatically just take over! Robert, you just like to argue for the sake of argueing, or so it seems. Gerry didn't infer in any way that God just automatically takes over. He stated the reality that the works of God in the soul of a person are His, nothing more and nothing less. I happen to agree with Gerry's conclusion as stated in the Word. "for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. " Phil 2:13 NASB "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20 KJV Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 And the source of that human power is...? "Without Me, you can do zero, zilch, nada, nothing." Gerry That would be taken from John 15:5 as stated by Jesus. "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26 KJV The context is the human soul and the principle is valid wherever the person exists. Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo All of which are fulfilled through the life of Jesus Christ as imputed and imparted to the believer in Him. The imputed life of Christ provides wholeness where perfection is needed to replace the lack of living in harmony with the kingdom of heaven, through justification. The imparted is the life successfully lived by Christ in the soul of the believer, known as sanctification, something that starts the moment the new believer submits to the power of God in his/her life. "....that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD." 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 NKJV "...for He says," AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU,AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU."Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION"--" 2 Cor 6:2 NASB Emphasis theirs LHC "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:12 KJV Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 Yes ... God will help us. But in the end ... it is ONLY the merits of Christ through which we are saved. So ... you may have 35% done in human power and 65% done with God's power but in the end ... you need 100% of what Christ did at the cross. Where is the point where I said you or I get any merit? How do you receive the RIGHTEOUSNESS of CHRIST that is IMPUTED to you? Is it not by faith? It is offered to every repenting sinner who believes. That righteousness will not do you one bit of good because it would soon be lost UNLESS CHRIST LIVES IN YOU. How do we receive Christ into the life? Is it not also by faith? CHRIST LIVING IN US IS CHRIST IMPARTING HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS IN US. Sooooooooo, where is your 10% or 35% or 65%? Whether it is imputed or imparted, it is 100% CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS all received by faith!!! It is ALL A GIFT!!! I see nowhere where I can lay any claim of merit to even a fraction of a percentage to something that is given to me as a GIFT!!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 What He did in our humanity 2000 years ago is what saves, period. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5:10 KJV Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
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