Woody Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 Robert ... Along with LifeHiscost .... I would like to agree with you and what you have said. It is so true. And thank you LifeHiscost ... I think that Bible quote seals the deal! Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
olger Posted March 27, 2007 Author Posted March 27, 2007 Originally Posted By: Robert As you surrender. You left out that part. God doesn't automatically just take over! [/quote'] Robert, you just like to argue for the sake of argueing, or so it seems. Gerry didn't infer in any way that God just automatically takes over. He stated the reality that the works of God in the soul of a person are His, nothing more and nothing less. I happen to agree with Gerry's conclusion as stated in the Word. "for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. " Phil 2:13 NASB "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20 KJV Regards!! A wholesome amen.. olger Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Moderators Gerr Posted March 27, 2007 Moderators Posted March 27, 2007 I suspect a huge amount of our confusion around this issue is due to misapplication of texts. Not picking on Redwood here, but this was a convenient example: "What human power can do divine power is not summoned to do. God does not dispense with man's aid. He strengthens him, co-operating with him as he uses the powers and capabilities given him." DA 535 I don't know the context of this sentence, but if EGW is saying 'toward our salvation', then she is preaching damnable heresy. But I'm pretty sure she is not - I'm pretty sure she is talking about things done on this earth, like helping others or improving our characters. The sentence makes perfect sense in the context of, for example, sitting home praying for the homeless to be fed rather than going to work in a soup kitchen. Bravo! Bravus! You are exactly right. I checked the context. The context is at the grave of Lazarus. Jesus could have commanded the stone that sealed the tomb to move by itself. No, he let humans move it out of the way. So, just as you said, it's no good praying for food for someone when it is in fact our power to give it. Gerry Quote
Robert Posted March 27, 2007 Posted March 27, 2007 We MUST be PERFECT even as the FATHER is perfect to answer to the LAW. Right! I would like to introduce a principle used by Christ in the NT and OT. It is based on the following: Luke 6:38 …."For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.” In other words if some legalist expects perfection from others, the same will be required of him! Can I back this up? Yes. Go to James 4:5 "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Let’s see how the principle works. Go to Luke chapter ten, verse 25: On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Note this "expert in the law" wants to know how he can gain heaven by doing something. How does Christ reply to this proud man? Does He give him grace or law? verse 26 “What is written in the Law ?” he replied. “How do you read it?” Christ gives him law! 27 He [the proud, legalist] answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “ Do this and you will live .” Did Jesus give this proud legalist grace or law? Right, law! That’s why Jesus said, “Do this (keep the law) and you will live.” It's like the kid who thinks He can do advanced calculus and the only way to humble him is to give him a test. That's why Jesus gave the Old Covenant to the Jews. Didn't He know that they couldn't keep it? Yes! Then why did He give them the law? Because they didn't know that they couldn't keep it. Let’s look at another one: Matthew 19:16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” Does this man want grace? No, he wants eternal life in return for being good. He is definitely proud. What is Jesus reply? “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” [verse 17] Do you see how God operates? Robert Quote
Neil D Posted March 28, 2007 Posted March 28, 2007 Quote: Does their freedom to choose determine how others behave? And will we be responsible for how our choices influence others? [snip] It is clear that I am responsible for my own sinful choices. But if you die as a result of my choice to fire a weapon in your direction, whether or not I meant to kill you, ask the family you would leave behind whether they think my choices resulting in your death through my behavior, matter, and whether they want to do something about restricting my continueing freedom to choose without interference by others. There is a big difference with the consequences of your actions that result in harm and INFLUENCE behavior. Just because you kill me with a gun doesn't mean that you are influencing my decisions for/against Christ. What it does mean is that I was in the way of the bullet of the gun you chose to shoot. Influence is not the same as results... Sorry, but your analogy falls flat. Read again your texts and determine if behavior INFLUENCING behavior is the same as behavior resulting in behavior...And I think you know very well that behavior in one person does NOT result in desired behavior in another... Therefore, as I have said before, it is NOT up to me or anyone else for that matter to enforce a code of conduct. However, it is up to me to influence a code of conduct, and the best way to do that is to inspire others to do so....not berate them.. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Moderators Gerr Posted March 28, 2007 Moderators Posted March 28, 2007 Originally Posted By: Redwood We MUST be PERFECT even as the FATHER is perfect to answer to the LAW. Right! I would like to introduce a principle used by Christ in the NT and OT. It is based on the following: Luke 6:38 …."For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.” In other words if some legalist expects perfection from others, the same will be required of him! Can I back this up? Yes. Go to James 4:5 "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Let’s see how the principle works. Go to Luke chapter ten, verse 25: On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Note this "expert in the law" wants to know how he can gain heaven by doing something. How does Christ reply to this proud man? Does He give him grace or law? verse 26 “What is written in the Law ?” he replied. “How do you read it?” Christ gives him law! 27 He [the proud, legalist] answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “ Do this and you will live .” Did Jesus give this proud legalist grace or law? Right, law! That’s why Jesus said, “Do this (keep the law) and you will live.” It's like the kid who thinks He can do advanced calculus and the only way to humble him is to give him a test. That's why Jesus gave the Old Covenant to the Jews. Didn't He know that they couldn't keep it? Yes! Then why did He give them the law? Because they didn't know that they couldn't keep it. Let’s look at another one: Matthew 19:16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” Does this man want grace? No, he wants eternal life in return for being good. He is definitely proud. What is Jesus reply? “If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” [verse 17] Do you see how God operates? Robert Jesus referred them to the Law because the Law would send them to Christ. "Christ is the end of law for righteousness." The Law points out man's sinfulness, but it cannot make him righteous. So when sinful man looks at the mirror/law, he sees his filth and drives him to the ONE who, not only can forgive him, but also clean him up and gives him enabling power to obey the Law. As Paul declared, "It is no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me." If Christ is living in the believer, how can he not obey? Gerry Quote
Robert Posted March 28, 2007 Posted March 28, 2007 Quote: Gerry: Jesus referred them to the Law because the Law would send them to Christ. Gerry, they were talking to Christ. Try again.... Quote
Robert Posted March 28, 2007 Posted March 28, 2007 Quote: Gerry: Jesus referred them to the Law because the Law would send them to Christ. Gerry, they were talking to Christ. Try again.... Here's the context (and not from paraphrased Bibles): Matt 19:16 And behold, one came to Him and said, Question: “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life ?” Answer: "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments .” Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. Question: “Teacher,” he asked, “ what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Answer: “What is written in the Law ?” “ Do this and you will live .” [verses 26,28] Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 29, 2007 Moderators Posted March 29, 2007 Quote: Gerry: Jesus referred them to the Law because the Law would send them to Christ. Gerry, they were talking to Christ. Try again.... Ok, send them to God, who alone had to power to enable them to obey. They just didn't realize they were talking to the Son of God. Gerry Quote
Robert Posted March 29, 2007 Posted March 29, 2007 Originally Posted By: Robert Quote: Gerry: Jesus referred them to the Law because the Law would send them to Christ. Gerry, they were talking to Christ. Try again.... Ok, send them to God, who alone had to power to enable them to obey. They just didn't realize they were talking to the Son of God. Gerry Actually it's the Holy Spirit who is available for growth. You are still bypassing the context of my quotes. If one comes to Christ and insists on doing something good in order to enter into life, Christ will give him the law in order to break him of his pride. "What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself. When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ." [FLB, 111] In both the Old and New Testament Jesus consistently used the law to break people of their self-righteous attitude. Once done they can be clothed with the righteousness of Christ. "This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising." [COL, 311] Have you been broken of your law performance pride? Have you, like Paul, counted all your righteousness as dung? Have you given up on the idea of doing anything to gain heaven? If not, then you are unclothed and in the judgment God's law will condemn you! The robe of Christ's righteousness doesn't have your works in it. Yes, you will grow while you stand perfect in His righteousness, but that robe is all of Christ's righteousness developed for you some 2000 years ago. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 29, 2007 Moderators Posted March 29, 2007 Quote: Actually it's the Holy Spirit who is available for growth. If you want to get picky, all THREE powers of heaven, and even the angels are involved. Quote: You are still bypassing the context of my quotes. If one comes to Christ and insists on doing something good in order to enter into life, Christ will give him the law in order to break him of his pride. Let me ask you. 1). Is the believer indwelt by the three Powers of heaven enabled to keep the law or not? 2) The woman caught in adultery and the paralytic that was healed, was Jesus just trying to break their pride when He told them, "Go and sin NO MORE?" Quote: "What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself. When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ." [FLB, 111] Read your quote again. What is this "righteousness of Christ" that the believer is clothed with? I've said it before, I'll say it again. For God to pronounce someone righteous without ACTUALLY making him righteous would make Him a liar! That can never be! "Let God be true, and every man a liar!" Rom 3:4 NKJ. Quote: In both the Old and New Testament Jesus consistently used the law to break people of their self-righteous attitude. Once done they can be clothed with the righteousness of Christ. "This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising." [COL, 311] Have you been broken of your law performance pride? Have you, like Paul, counted all your righteousness as dung? Have you given up on the idea of doing anything to gain heaven? If not, then you are unclothed and in the judgment God's law will condemn you! The robe of Christ's righteousness doesn't have your works in it. Yes, you will grow while you stand perfect in His righteousness, but that robe is all of Christ's righteousness developed for you some 2000 years ago. The perfect righteousness of Christ is not only the righteousness He did 2000 yrs ago, He wants to make that righteousness a REALITY in your life and mine TODAY!!! HERE & NOW!!! Anything less is a lie!!! The righteousness IMPARTED by Christ is a gift! Just like His IMPUTED righteousness. Both are received by faith! You keep ignoring what the Apostle John plainly declared, i.e. "Whoever ABIDES in Him does NOT sin." 1 Jn 3:4 NKJ. Again, "We know that WHOEVER is born of God does not sin..." 1 Jn 5:18 NKJ. So, again I ask you, is the believer enabled to fulfill the requirements of the law and thus stop sinning or not? Gerry Quote
olger Posted March 29, 2007 Author Posted March 29, 2007 Let me sum up. Good behavior does not cause our salvation. Bad behavior is natural before Christ. If I can do nothing apart from Christ (John 15:5) and everything with Him (Phil. 4:13) then the only hope for me is to get with Jesus and stay with Him. "He leads me in paths of righteousness for His name's sake." thanks for a lively discussion, olger Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Moderators Bravus Posted March 29, 2007 Moderators Posted March 29, 2007 Amen! Quote Truth is important
Robert Posted March 29, 2007 Posted March 29, 2007 Quote: Actually it's the Holy Spirit who is available for growth. If you want to get picky, all THREE powers of heaven, and even the angels are involved. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 29, 2007 Moderators Posted March 29, 2007 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Quote: Actually it's the Holy Spirit who is available for growth. If you want to get picky, all THREE powers of heaven, and even the angels are involved. Jesus doesn't dwell in you....Neither does God the Father. It is the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Trinity. "...Christ IN YOU the hope of glory." Col 1:27 NKJ "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that JESUS CHRIST IS IN YOU? - unless indeed you are disqualifed [adokimos - spurious, that which does not prove itself such as it ought, do not stand the test]." 2 Cor 13:5 NKJ. "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and MAKE OUR HOME WITH HIM." Jn 14:23 NKJ Gerry Quote
Robert Posted March 29, 2007 Posted March 29, 2007 Originally Posted By: Robert Jesus doesn't dwell in you....Neither does God the Father. It is the Holy Spirit, the 3rd person of the Trinity.[/quote'] [color:blue]"...Christ IN YOU the hope of glory." Col 1:27 NKJ Christ is in heaven. He is defending you there because Satan is accusing you of being a sinner. So Christ is busy in heaven. He is tied to our glorified humanity. He is not omnipresent, as is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit represents Christ, but technically speaking the Holy Spirit is in you, not Christ. Rob Quote
Woody Posted March 29, 2007 Posted March 29, 2007 I wonder ... HOW many of us are "born of God" as we should be? "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." DA 535 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted March 29, 2007 Moderators Posted March 29, 2007 Quote: Quote: The woman caught in adultery and the paralytic that was healed, was Jesus just trying to break their pride when He told them, "Go and sin NO MORE?" Did they ask "what good thing" they needed to do to gain heaven? No. So Christ didn't give them the law. He gave them grace. The woman caught in adultery didn't ask Jesus to defend her. Neither did she repent. Look at the context. Yes, Jesus told her to leave her sin of adultery. Only a legalist would think He was talking of "all" sin. Is that what Jesus said? "Go and don't commit adultery anymore?" Robert's Standard Version? How about the paralytic? What sin was He commanded to stop doing? Besides, if the woman could stop the sin of adultery, why would/could she not be enabled to also leave the sin of idolatry, covetousness, murder, etc., etc.? Quote: Quote: The perfect righteousness of Christ is not only the righteousness He did 2000 yrs ago, Look at your statement. It's ridiculous. What other righteous did He do if it wasn't in Himself? Gerry the individual wasn't even around. Read again what I said, including the part you conveniently left out. Jesus wants to make His righteousness that He did 2000 yrs ago, He wants to make it a reality in your life and mine and in everyone who put their trust in Him. The Gospel will never have the power to convince the world of the power of God unto salvation if they only hear about a righteousness that happened 2000 yrs ago. What the world needs and is waiting for is a demonstration of that righteousness in His church and in the lives of those who claim to be His. Quote: Quote: He wants to make that righteousness a REALITY in your life and mine TODAY!!! HERE & NOW!!! Anything less is a lie!!! Why a lie? I am already perfect "in Christ". Are you calling that a lie? If so, go hide because I'm going to blast you as the supreme legalist of all time.... If God says, "Robert is perfect. He is not an adulterer." I am not saying that you are, but IF you continue to cheat on your wife, would it not be a lie for God to tell the whole universe you are perfect and is not guilty of the sin of adultery? Would it not be a lie if God says, "Robert is perfect. He is perfectly honest." But if you continue to cheat Uncle Sam, and I'm not saying that you are, just saying "if", would not God be guilty of a lie? Quote: Quote: The righteousness IMPARTED by Christ is a gift! Just like His IMPUTED righteousness. Both are received by faith! The gift that saves is imputed. The gift that is experienced is imparted. Understand? Robert, how can something be truly believed unless it becomes part of the experience? Internalized and taken into the heart? That is why the commandment says, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your HEART, with all your SOUL, and with all your MIND." Externals, like circumcision is of no avail unless the heart is circumcised. God cares not one whit for religious play-acting. That is hypocrisy. Very few sins disturbed Jesus more than, "having a form of godliness buy denying its power." 2 Tim 4:5 NKJ. Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 29, 2007 Moderators Posted March 29, 2007 Quote: "...Christ IN YOU the hope of glory." Col 1:27 NKJ Christ is in heaven. He is defending you there because Satan is accusing you of being a sinner. So Christ is busy in heaven. He is tied to our glorified humanity. He is not omnipresent, as is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit represents Christ, but technically speaking the Holy Spirit is in you, not Christ. Rob Those are not my words. Quibble with Paul. Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 29, 2007 Moderators Posted March 29, 2007 I wonder ... HOW many of us are "born of God" as we should be? "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Was the Apostle John telling a lie? If that is not our experience, should we question what he said? Or should we not rather question our experience? Or question our understanding of what constitutes a sin that we are held accountable for? Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 30, 2007 Moderators Posted March 30, 2007 Quote: Quote: You keep ignoring what the Apostle John plainly declared, i.e. "Whoever ABIDES in Him does NOT sin." 1 Jn 3:4 NKJ. You're reading something legalistic into your quote. John is not saying that the believer is above sin. In fact, like Paul, he states that "if we say we have no sin (in our lives)" we are highly deceived. Paul says we fall short of God's love. Both agree. Let's read what John said. [color:red]"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned (perfect tense), we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." 1 Jn 1:3-10 NKJ. The believer can never say he has no sin or that he has never sinned. That would be a lie. But John assures us that although that is the believer's PAST experience, that does not have to be an ONGOING reality if he is abiding IN HIM. That is the condition. Quote: If we abide "in Christ" by faith we will confess our sins and sin. Sins - as in acst of misbehavior. Sin - as in iniquity - our bent to self that is practiced at some level daily. If a professed believer continues to willfully/deliberately violate God's commandments, then that believer is another power's slave!!! Can't serve two masters!!! Quote: Quote: So, again I ask you, is the believer enabled to fulfill the requirements of the law and thus stop sinning or not? If he or she could exercise "the faith of Jesus" perhaps so? However, Paul never reached that point and he was a man of God. Maybe the last generation of Christians will, but it really doesn't matter as far as heaven goes. Yes, in giving God glory, but not salvation. Rob [color:blue]Rob, the last generation (which I believe we are), is about those who "keep the commandments of God AND the faith of Jesus." Rev 14:12 NKJ. Gerry Quote
Woody Posted March 30, 2007 Posted March 30, 2007 Originally Posted By: Redwood I wonder ... HOW many of us are "born of God" as we should be? "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." Was the Apostle John telling a lie? If that is not our experience, should we question what he said? Or should we not rather question our experience? Or question our understanding of what constitutes a sin that we are held accountable for? Gerry I guess the only one to question is Ellen White in this quote of Desire of Ages. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted March 30, 2007 Moderators Posted March 30, 2007 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Was the Apostle John telling a lie? If that is not our experience, should we question what he said? Or should we not rather question our experience? Or question our understanding of what constitutes a sin that we are held accountable for? Gerry[/quote'] I guess the only one to question is Ellen White in this quote of Desire of Ages. NOT!!! That quote is from 1 Jn 3:9. Can't lay that one on EGW. Gerry Quote
olger Posted March 30, 2007 Author Posted March 30, 2007 I wonder ... HOW many of us are "born of God" as we should be? "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." DA 535 `Tis 1st John 3:9, comrade. `G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Woody Posted March 30, 2007 Posted March 30, 2007 That is a good laugh ... My error ... sorry. I was doing two things at once. You got me. Oh well ... they are one and the same aren't they? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
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