Christian leaders ask Muslims for forgiveness

[Stan]

The topic of the Trinity usually, (read always) end end bitter posts..

Can everyone please get back to the topic? The Trinity Issue can be discussed but lets put it in to the private section as it turns to nastiness.

[John317]

Hey Casey,

I'm sure you've heard of the Hadith and have probably even read it. I'm planning on getting it and reading it. It's a collection of the sayings of Muhammad and is considered the second-most important book in Islam.

Yesterday I bought three different translations of the Koran. One is by AHMED ALI and is very literal. My Muslim friends have also made arrangements for me to meet with a teacher of the Islamic religion who is very highly respected in the local Muslim community. I will simply ask questions about the meaning of various verses to see how Muslims understand them.

What do you think of the contradiction between the Bible's testimony that Abraham was commanded to sacrifice Isaac, and the Koran' testimony that it was Ishmael whom God commanded Abraham to sacrifice? See Sura 37: 100-11.

Muslim's don't believe that Christ was crucified on the cross. That belief is based on Sura 4: 157. Speaking of the Jews, it says, "And for saying: 'We killed the Christ, Jesus, son of Mary, who was an apostle of God;' but they neither killed nor crucified him, though it so appeared to them. Those who disagree in the matter are only lost in doubt. They have no knowledge about it other than conjecture, for surely they did not kill him..."

I remember your saying that it means the Jews did not kill him but that it was the Romans who crucified Him. But the verse is denying that Jesus was crucified or killed. There is nothing in the Koran at all that says Jesus died at the hands of the Romans or at anyone else's hands. The Koran claims that Jesus is alive today but does not say that Allah resurrected him from the dead. As far as I know, all Muslims take Sura 19: 33 to mean that Jesus was not put to death as Christians teach.

Something else I have found very interesting is that the Koran teaches that Muhammad was a sinner and needed to repent. That is not said of Christ in the Koran or in the Bible. According to the Bible, Jesus never sinned. The Koran also says Jesus knows the way to heaven, which Muhammad never did claim to know.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

The Qur'an on fighting, waging jihad:

Sura 2: 216--

Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But God knows, and you know not.

Sura 5: 33--

The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: Execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: That is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

Sura 8: 12-13--

Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: "I am with you: Give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: Smite you above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

This because they contended against God and His Messenger [Muhammad]. If any contend against God and His Messenger, God [Allah] is strict in punishment.

Sura 8: 65---

O Messenger, rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty among you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: If a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: For these are a people without understanding.

1) Sura 47: 4--

Therefore, when you meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them: thereafter is the time for either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded: But if it had been God's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them Himself; but He lets you fight in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of God, He will never let their deeds be lost.

2) Sura 9: 5--

Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleager them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.

Sura 3: 157-158--

And if you are slain, or die, in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass.

And if you die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that you are brought together.

Sura 3: 195--

And their Lord has accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: You are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain, verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, a reward from the presence of God, and from His presence is the best of rewards."

Sura 9: 111--

God has purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs in return is the garden of Paradise: they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: A promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: And who is more faithful to his covenant than God. Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded: That is the achievement supreme.

Sura 8: 65--

O Messenger, rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty among you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: If a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: For these are a people without understanding.

3) Sura 2: 190-193--

Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors.

And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they first fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Sura 3: 161--

Soon will We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with God, for which He had sent no authority: Their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

Sura 9: 123--

O you who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: And know that God is with those who fear Him.

Sura 9: 29--

Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book [i.e., Jews and Christians], until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Sura 4: 89--

They but wish that you should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they: But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God From what is forbidden. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them.

Sura 9: 73--

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers [non-Muslims] and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.

Sura 4: 95--

Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home. Unto all in Faith Has God promised good: But those who strive and fight Has He distinguished above those who sit at home by a special reward...

[John317]

The Qur'an on women:

Sura 4: 34--

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in the husband's absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them first, Next, refuse to share their beds, And last beat them lightly; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means of annoyance: For God is Most High, great above you all.

Penguin Classics edition of The Koran, translated by N. J. Dawood:

Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the others...

Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall's translation, The Meaning of the Glorious Koran:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other...

The Koran, translated by J.M. Rodwell:

Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God hath gifted the one above the other...

The Qur'an, translated by Mahomedali Habib Shakir:

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others...

Sura 2: 282--

[A woman's testimony in court is worth half as much as that of a man]:

O you who believe! When you deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing. Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: Let not the scribe refuse to write: As God Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord God, and not diminish anything of what he owes. If the party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as you choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on For evidence...

Sura 4: 11--

God thus directs you as regards your Children's Inheritance: To the male, a portion equal to that of two females: If only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half...

Sura 4: 3--

If you fear that you will not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if you fear that you will not be able to deal justly with them, then only one, or a captive that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

Sura 2: 223--

Your wives are as a tilth [field] unto you; so approach your tilth [field] when or how you will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear God, and know that you are to meet Him in the Hereafter, and give these good tidings to those who believe.

Translation of this verse by Ahmed Ali:

Women are like fields for you; so seed them as you intend, but plan the future in advance. And fear God, and remember, you have to face Him in the end. So convey glad tidings to those who believe.

Sura 4: 24--

...As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them first, Next, refuse to share their beds, And last beat them lightly; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means of annoyance: For God is Most High, great above you all.

Sura 24: 31--

And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers...

[John317]

...

That the Qur'an is inspired is the most wonderful news we could have today, be of good cheer! :-)

Casey

What the Qur'an says about the Bible

Sura 5: 44, 46. Allah claims he was the one who revealed the Law to Moses-- "and therein was ["is"-- Pickthall] guidance and light."

Radwell's translation: "Verily, we [Allah] have sent down the law wherein are guidance and light."

Dawood's translation: "There is guidance, and there is light, in the Torah which We have revealed."

Allah also claims to have sent Jesus, who confirmed the Law that has come before him: "We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous." Surah 5: 46

Sura 5: 68 tells Jews and Christians: "Say, O people of the Book! Ye have not ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelelation that has come to you from the Lord."

In Sura 10: 94, Allah tells Muhammad: "And if thou art in doubt as to what we have sent down to thee, inquire at those who have read the Scriptures before thee."

Sura 29: 46:-- "Dispute ye not with the people of the Book, except with means better."

Another translation of same verse: "Dispute not, unless in a kindly sort, with the people of the Book."

Sura 6: 115 calls the Bible "the word of God" or the "word of the Lord." The Qur'an also acknowledges that the Bible is the inspired word of God, and that Jesus Christ was a prophet and that His teaching had authority. Finally Allah told Muslims to go to Christians (who had been reading the Bible) to affirm Mohammad's message (Sura 10: 94).

It is clear, then, that Muhammad had confidence in the Bible during his lifetime, the early 600s. The Bible is no different today than it was in 620 AD. We have Bible manuscripts of both testaments that date centuries before Muhammed's day, and our modern Bibles are based on those ancient texts.

Therefore it is simply untrue, as Muslims often argue, that the Bible has been changed to the point where it is no longer the truth. If it was God's truth during Muhammad's time, it is truth today.

[John317]

I believe that Christian leaders should ask Muslims for forgiveness, but at the same time we need to know what the Qur'an teaches so we can communicate with Muslims about their beliefs and ours:

What the Qur'an says about Jesus (whose name in the Qur'an is Isa):

1) Based on Sura 19: 33, Jesus will die after He returns to earth, and then will be raised alive. These events were still future in the 7th century AD when the Qur'an was written.

" And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life." (Compare #11.)

2) The Jesus of the Qur'an was "only a messenger, or apostle." The Qur'an thus denies that Jesus was divine or deity.

Sura 5: 75:

The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.

3) The Qur'an denies many times that Jesus is the Son of God: Sura 19: 35, 88-92; 18: 111; 23: 91; 6: 102; 9: 30.

Sura 9: 30: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

(Compare John 20: 31; 3: 16; 1 John 2: 23; 4: 9; 5: 5, 9-13, 20; Luke 1: 35; 3: 22; 4: 3, 9; Mark 14: 61, 62; Matt. 16: 16; Hebrews 1: 1-3, 10.)

4) The Qur'an portrays the baby Jesus as having spoken while still in the cradle. He is reported to have said, "Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and has appointed me a prophet." Sura 19: 29-30; 3: 46 (This portrayal is almost exactly the same as is found among 4th century Gnostic manuscripts about the early childhood of Jesus.)

5) The Qur'an denies that Jesus was crucified. It was not Jesus who died on the cross. Muslims have various explanations of what happened, but they all agree that Jesus was not the one who was crucified on the cross. Sura 4: 157-158.

And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

[4.158] Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

(Compare Acts 3: 14, 15; Luke 23: 33, 52, 53; Romans 5: 10.)

6) The Qur'an portrays the child Jesus as having formed a bird from clay and made it fly away (which is similar to stories about Jesus that are found in 4th century Gnostic manuscripts). Sura 3: 49; 5: 110. The context of this portrayal shows that it is expected to be understood historically. See #7.

7) The Qur'an also says that Jesus performed many miracles, including healing and raising people from the dead. Sura 3: 49.

8) Jesus came to confirm the Torah. Sura 3: 50; 29: 46, 47.

9) Allah is the One who gave the gospel "wherein is guidance and light." Sura 5: 46; 57: 27.

10) Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Marium). Sura 19: 16-21; 3: 47; 21: 91.

11) Jesus is alive today. Sura 19: 33. Many Muslims believe that Jesus will return to earth. (See #1.)

12) The Qur'an denies the Trinity. Sura 4: 171; 5: 73

4: 71-- O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three [Trinity]. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

5: 73--Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

13) Sura 3: 42-55 teaches that (1) Mary was chosen by God; (2) Jesus was born of a virgin; (3) Jesus is the Messiah; (4) Jesus has power over death; and (5) Jesus knows the right, or straight, path to heaven.

3: 42-55-- And when the angels said: O Marium! [Mary] surely Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of of the world.

[3.43] O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow.

[3.44] This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.

[3.45] When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa [Jesus] son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

[3.46] And he shall speak to the people when in the cradle and when of old age, and (he shall be) one of the good ones.

[3.47] She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.

[3.48] And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat [Torah] and the Injeel [gospel].

[3.49] And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.

[3.50] And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat [Torah] and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.

[3.51] Surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path.

[3.52] But when Isa [Jesus] perceived unbelief on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones.

[3.53] Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed and we follow the apostle, so write us down with those who bear witness.

[3.54] And they planned and Allah (also) planned, and Allah is the best of planners.

[3.55] And when Allah said: O Isa [Jesus], I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

14) The Qur'an says Jesus predicted the coming of Mohammad, and that Mohamma was also predicted in the Old Testament. He was "described in the Torah and the Gospel." Sura 7: 157; 61: 6

15) Sura 9: 29, 30 calls for Muslims to "fight" and subjugate those who say that Jesus is the Son of God.

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[CaseyButler]

Hi John,

Again, I encourage all Christians, especially Seventh-Day Adventists, to go to God themselves to hear the Spiritual Words of both the Bible and the Qur'an.

The Words of Jesus Christ and the prophets and the apostles describing God and His Kingdom are not literal, they are wonderfully Spiritual. God speaks to the Holy Spirit within each of us and teaches us what men cannot stomach.

About the Spiritual Words in ALL scripture from God, Peter wrote:

"And account (that) the longsuffering of our Lord (is) salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all (his) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as (they do) also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." [KJV-Bible: 2 Peter 3:15-16]

Only God can teach us the Spiritual meanings of words like Paul used while wearing the "full armor of God" and teaching others to do the same, as per the Psalmist's metaphor.

I encourage all to go to Him to find out about His Words therein, the Spiritual message of David, whom God "hid beneath the shadow of His wings".

The Qur'an contains the Seal of God:

"Whatever is in the heavens and on earth, let it declare the Praises and Glory of God. For He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

"To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: It is He Who gives Life and Death; and He has Power over all things.

"He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Immanent: And He has full knowledge of all things.

"He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and is moreover firmly established on the Throne (of Authority). He knows what enters within the earth and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven and what mounts up to it, and He is with you wheresoever you may be. And God sees well all that you do.

"To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: And all affairs are referred back to God." [ALI-Qur'an: Chapter 57:1-5]

The news is good. :-)

Casey

[CaseyButler]

John.. I don't find the Hadiths inspired. Muhammad was the last Prophet to Islam, and the words from these other people just don't have God's Voice in them.

Nor does the Jewish Talmud, or 99% of Christian writings.

Mrs. White had it though.

Again, only if we know the Bible can we interpet the Qur'an correctly.

Christians are supposed to know the Bible. God through Muhammad is speaking to Christians of today as well those of the dark ages. We just have to acknowledge we had a dark age.

The Spiritual information in metaphor and prophecy that we have in the Bible has been withheld from Muslims due to the same reasons the Spiritual information in metaphor and prophecy that Muslims have in the Qur'an has been withheld from Christians.

Scholars and thelogians, preachers and Imams, from both religions teach that each is corrupted, scholars and theologians, preachers and Imams, from both religions have so fragmented the religions and denominations that worship the God of Israel - they have so divided us and themselves - that we can see ourselves for what we are.

We can see through a glass, clearly. :-)

Mankind is evil, and religions who have spread the Gospel through the "foolishness of preaching", exalting themselves over one another and damning each other to "hell" and teaching hatred...

Well, they are our example of why the Children of Israel didn't succeed without God among them either. I mean God actually living among all of us.

Or the Children of Israel are the type of religions today.

It works either way, because the Sword has two edges.

[Stan]

Casey...

I know that many Christian panic when they see someone saying the Qur'an is inspired. I am also aware that the 'BIG 28" can be supported by the Qur'an, including the 7th day Sabbath, and the unique Day of Atonement that is 'Adventisty only'.

BUT tell me this please, does the Qur'an bring anything extra to the table that the Bible does not?

It has beens said that for many Muslims today, that Muslims to the Qur'an can be compared to many Christians to the Bible...

There are some strong statements in the Qur'an that are not 'friendly' and there are some similar statements in the Bible that are not that 'friendly' as well.

Thanks for your patience...

[John317]

John.. I don't find the Hadiths inspired.

Do Muslims consider it as authoritative?

Unlike the Qur'an, which is regarded as the very words of Allah, the Hadith is what Muhammad's followers reported having heard him say. It's the second-most important book in Islam, and therefore is very influential on their thinking and behavior.

Sometime in January I'll be meeting with a Muslim teacher from Afghanistan so I can ask all kind of questions about this as well as many other things.

What do you think of the Qur'an teachings on Hell? Also, how do you understand the Qur'an's teachings on the way people are saved?

I am asking specifically about the Qur'an itself. I understand that you believe the Qur'an and the Bible are both one book so you make no distinction between the two. But I am trying to see just what the Qur'an says-- such as I would do if I wanted to find just what the book of Mark says or the books of John or Romans.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

I am also aware that the 'BIG 28" can be supported by the Qur'an, including the 7th day Sabbath, and the unique Day of Atonement that is 'Adventisty only'.

Fundamental Beliefs #4: "God the Eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created... He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead..." All this is denied in the Qur'an and in fact Allah says to believe these things is a sin he cannot forgive.

These are fundamental beliefs of Christians.

Fundamental Beliefs #5: "God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption.... Sent by the Father and the Son to be always with His children, He extends spiritual gifts to the church, empowers it to bear witness to Christ, and in harmony with the Scriptures leads into all truth."

The Qur'an very clearly denies this. Muslims believe Muhammad was the Comforter whom Jesus said He would send.

The Qur'an denies all of the Fundamental beliefs # 9 dealing with the death of Christ. It does not teach that an atonement for sin was needed. Not sure where the Qur'an teaches the SDA understanding of the Day of Atonement. I don't believe the word or concept of Atonement even occurs in the Qur'an. Perhaps it is under a different word. Any ideas? That would be wonderful if it does.

Do you know what verses in the Qur'an support the Bible teaching that the seventh-day Sabbath was ordained by God for all mankind? I've heard that Muhammad kept the Seventh-day Sabbath, but I have not seen any solid evidence or proof of this. I am sure that Muhammad would have become a Christian if the church hadn't been so corrupt in his day. Tragic.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

J Mrs. White had it [God's voice] though.

I believe the same. But what then do you with all of her statements supporting the concept of the Trinity-- that is, that Christ existed before He came to this earth and that Christ in fact was the One who created the earth and gave the law?

Also, what about the Qur'an's denial of Christ's crucifixion and death?

Could you please also address the statement of the Bible that believers in Christ are "children of God." Does this statement, in your mind, necessitate God's having sex? If not, why then does God's having a Son require God to have sex?

This brings up the interesting, profound difference between the view of God in the Qur'an and that found in the Bible. The Bible views God as Father, but this concept is absent from the Qur'an. According to the Bible, you can get to know God and have a personal relationship with Him, whereas the Qur'an portrays Allah as rather impersonal and impossible to get to know.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

... Christians are supposed to know the Bible. God through Muhammad is speaking to Christians of today as well those of the dark ages. We just have to acknowledge we had a dark age.

What do you believe God is saying through Muhammad to us that He has not already said in the Bible and in Ellen White's writings?

I was wondering if Muhammad is the "seal of the prophets," or the last of Allah's prophets, how can Ellen White be a true prophet?

It seems like I remember you said that Islam is only a religion for the Arabs or for those in that part of the world, but Muslims believe very strongly that Islam is the only true religion and that it is for the whole world. Is this true?

Quote:

The Spiritual information in metaphor and prophecy that we have in the Bible has been withheld from Muslims due to the same reasons the Spiritual information in metaphor and prophecy that Muslims have in the Qur'an has been withheld from Christians.

OK, and I am trying to break through those reasons. Help me out. Deal with the things that the Qur'an says about Jesus Christ; for instance, that he was only a messenger, whereas the Bible says Jesus was much more than a prophet but that He was crucified and died for our sins so we might have salvation through placing our trust in Him as God's Son. Now how does the Qur'an teach we obtain salvation? It doesn't call us to accept Christ as Savior but only as just another prophet like many others. How can this be reconciled?

Notice that the Qur'an says Allah gave the Gospel and the Torah, and it does not indicate that the Gospel or Torah are not completely trustworthy. This was written in 620 AD. Now the Bible has not changed at all since 620 AD. How, then, can it said by Muslims or anyone else that the Bible has been changed since that time? Our New Testaments are based on ancient Greek texts dated 400 and 500 AD and some of the manuscript evidence is from as early as 200 AD. We have much of the Old Testament texts from as much as 900 years before the time of Muhammad, and they prove that there is no difference between the Old Testament of his day and ours.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

BUT tell me this please, does the Qur'an bring anything extra to the table that the Bible does not?

That's an interesting choice of analogy!

But what is the table, and what does the Bible bring to the table to begin with?

According to the Song of Moses, the story of which is recorded in Deuteronomy chapters 31-32, God commanded that what was then the Bible, or "the book of the Law", be placed in the "side of the Ark of the Covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee."

And that's what the Bible really is and always has been... A witness against us and our ways with God and one another.

Some might say the record in Deuteronomy is against the Children of Israel only, but we would have to blind not to recognize that the the Bible is an especially harsh witness against we Christians today.

God gave Moses the Ten Commandments. But the Children of Israel rebelled against God.

God through Jesus taught us of His Government directly, called the Kingdom of God.

But we Christians have rebelled against God's Government.

That statement might understandably upset many Christians who can no longer hear what Jesus taught, but who instead concentrate their Spirituality on the concepts of forgiveness of their own sins, with Jesus as the High Priest and intercessor between us and a God Whom the doctrines and preachers of many Christian denominations continue to teach as a Tyrant who punishes His creations.

Yet Jesus taught that God loves the good and the evil alike, the least and the greatest, and sends His rain on both.

According to the Psalms, David spent much of his time reasoning out the Law of God, praising how complete it was as he understood the ramifications of breaking even the least commandment, ultimately understanding how the world would be a different and wonderful place if all people simply followed the Law.

We Christians have the Words of Jesus, which explain exactly how we can keep the Law without pain, and voluntarily.

But we haven't done so. The problem is the evil we do.

If we think about it, and if we think about God as He has promised us He is, ie. All-Powerful, Omniscient, and the Creator of all, we must arrive at the conclusion that evil can exist in our world for no other reason than God also loves the people who do evil as He loves the people who do good - He loves all of us.

Otherwise an All-Powerful God could easily erase the world if He so desired.

Reason tells us that evil in this world can only exist because God Who Created it loves the people who do evil just as much as He loves the people who do good.

Obviously I'm not saying that God loves evil, on the contrary God is the opposite of evil.

But, according to Jesus' True Life Witness, God loves all the people He created, evil and good alike. We also know He created us with free will, independent and self-aware, in the Image of Himself.

If we do with the teachings and Life of Jesus as David did with God's Law, and we reason them out as they really exist in the Bible, we can understand that God has already taught us how to eliminate evil from our world of our own free will by accepting Him as the God of Love He is:

1. We will have no other gods before Him because He will be here with us, each of us with the full measure of His Spirit as Jesus had. [John 17:17-26] 1 Corinthians [15:22-28]

2. We will want no graven images of gods or of God because each of us will have the full measure of His Spirit.

3. Again, we will not take His name in vain because because each of us will have the full measure of His Spirit.

4. Every day will be Sabbath, a memorial of Creation, because each of us will have the full measure of His Spirit.

5. All sons and daughters will honor their parents, because each of us will have the full measure of His Spirit.

6. We will not kill because Jesus taught that even being angry with our brother without cause is instigation to evil, much less killing him or using violence against him. And because each of us will have the full measure of His Spirit. [Matthew 5:20-23], [Matthew 5:38-39], [Matthew 5:43-48]

7. We will not commit adultery because there will be no marriage, no reason for a contract of sworn oaths between two people because our love of God will direct our love for one another. And because each of us will have the full measure of His Spirit. [Matthew 22:29-30], [Matthew 22:37-39]

8. We will not steal because all will give freely when simply asked - we will have no possessions as we understand them today. God will provide all that we need and want. And because each of us will have the full measure of His Spirit. [Matthew 5:40-42], [Matthew 7:7-8], [Matthew 7:11]

9. We will not be capable of bearing false witness because, as the Gospels witness of Jesus, we will know men's hearts and they will know ours through God's Spirit within all. And because each of us will have the full measure of His Spirit. [Matthew 9:3-4], Mark 2:6-8], [Luke 5:22], and, most interestingly, [John 1:48-51]

10. We will not covet because we will not possess anything, all will be provided by God - from food to clothing to housing, and I'm sure very much more. And because each of us will have the full measure of His Spirit. [Matthew 6:28-34]

More than these, however, is the Witness of Jesus in His service to others, which testified to God's own way of serving and providing for others first.

If we Christians all simply served one another before serving ourselves, according the Two Great Laws of the Kingdom which read "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind... And thy neighbour as thyself", it would be the world God has always intended it to be.

God gave us the way and we could have implemented it ourselves.

Evil would be wiped out. There would be no killing, no stealing, no lying. There would be no abortion, no hunger, no homelessness, no lonely, no abandoned, none to cast out and none to condemn.

So according to the Song of Moses and the Words of Christ, the Bible is on the table as God's Witness against our efforts to create a society without Him within all people. Because in all our many attempts at government and religion down through history, we exalt ourselves over one another instead of serve one another.

The Bible stands as Witness against our selfishness no matter what religion or philosophy we adhere to, as Witness of the failure of mankind to make it on our own without Loving God and emulating His teachings of the Kingdom. Teachings that through Love for Him and one another alone can we ever live as He created us to live.

To answer your question, I believe the Qur'an comes to the table as God's second Witness against us.

The Bible says:

"One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." [KJV-Bible - Deuteronomy 19:15]

The Qur'an says:

"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus, the Son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: Therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: A guidance and an admonition to those who fear God."

"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God has revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."

"To you We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: So judge between them by what God has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to you. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: So strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God, it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which you dispute." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 5:46-48]

The Qur'an as God's second Witness provides Christians with a wealth of Spiritual knowledge that compliments and confirms the Bible.

The Qur'an and Islam as we know it today fulfil Bible prophecy so accurately that faith and certainty in the existence and ultimate Plan of God will be multiplied many times over for the Christian as God reveals to him or her, as per 1 Corinthians chapter 1, the Spiritually discerned Words from Him contained therein.

I used to think incredibly arrogantly about God. We think we can fence God into our little groups with our doctrines, with our scholars and theologians defining for us what He is and isn't capable of, who He does and doesn't love. We argue endlessly among ourselves the tiniest points as though our salvation depended on them.

But the most fantastic part about the Qur'an and the Bible, I think, is that together they show us that God is way smarter than us, and He has motivated us using means we could not imagine to spread His Name throughout the world while keeping a semblance of order by what little of His Law we do manage to keep.

Today, the fact is that all world events are driven, all world leaders are working and fighting, by and for the ideas that have eminated from God's inspiration to a handful of men and women we call "prophets".

This verse from Isaiah is extremely important for those of us who become "servants" of God by claiming His Name:

"And I will bring the blind by a way (that) they knew not; I will lead them in paths (that) they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them...

"Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see."

"Who (is) blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger (that) I sent? who (is) blind as (he that is) perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant?"

"Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not."

"The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make (it) honourable."

"But this (is) a people robbed and spoiled; (they are) all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore."

"Who among you will give ear to this? (who) will hearken and hear for the time to come?" [KJV-Bible - Isaiah 42:16,18-23]

The Qur'an also brings to the table 1.3 billion Muslims who have not seen Jesus Christ lived in world Christianity as yet.

What will happen when Muslims do see Jesus in Christians?

We are the "People of the Gospel", Jesus told us what to do, and He gave His Life for Muslims too.

God has given me certainty that Muslims will soon see Jesus in Christians. It's just a matter of time, and more suffering as time passes...

As the Song of Moses says:

"O that they were wise, (that) they understood this, (that) they would consider their latter end!"

"How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?"

"For their rock (is) not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves (being) judges." [KJV-Bible - Deuteronomy 32:29-31]

What a long message... Sorry. :-)

[Stan]

That was a lot of work, and I appreciate it a lot.

I have wondered why Christians have been so anti-Qur'an?

I am sure Muslims are turned off by Christianity BECAUSE

Christians bow down to graven images

Christians eat Pork

Christians drink alcohol

Christians worship the mother of Jesus

etc etc

and all kinds of things that are an abomination to them God, and Adventists..