Christian leaders ask Muslims for forgiveness

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Why would God order the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam?

"John 3: 17"

"Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10,11 NASB

Good quote. Another one is:

"Let all the angels of God worship Him [Christ]" (Hebrews 1: 6).

It just seems to me that for God to order the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam would be to tell them to worship him. I don't see the God of the Bible doing that. At least in the Bible you never find God telling angels or humans to prostrate themselves before another created being.

That's apparently one of the things that all of God's prophets are in agreement on.

Regards,

"John 3:17"

[John317]

Quote:

Yes, Jesus was speaking metaphorically about His flesh being the Bread of Life. But in the story as written in the Koran, given below, it seems obvious that it is not intended to be understood metaphorically.

So it is you opinion that Muhammad was writing literally about Jesus breathing Spirit into a bird He made of clay?

The rest of that portion of the Qur'an is referring to things to be understood in a literal, historical sense: (1) Allah is really speaking to Isa son of Marium; (2) Allah really strengthen Isa with the holy Spirit; (3) Allah really taught Isa the Book, etc.; (4) Isa really healed the blind and the leprous; (5) Isa really did bring forth the dead; (6) the children of Israel really did do what the passages says they did.

None of the above are to be understood metaphorically. Do you agree?

Two things in that passage [5.110] are such that we moderns naturally want to believe they are not meant to be understood literally:

(1) Isa's speaking to adults in the cradle as in maturity [The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, trans. Pickthall];

(2) Isa's forming birds out of clay and breathing life into them.

Here's a quote from a third century Christian Gnostic manuscript:

As regards #1, "Jesus spake even when he was in the cradle, and said to his mother: 'Mary, I am Jesus the Son of God,'" etc. (The First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ, Chapter 1, verses 2, 3).

As regards #2:

"He [the child Jesus] had also made the figures of birds and sparrows, which, when he commanded to fly, did fly, and when he commanded to stand still, did stand still..." (The First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ, XV 6.)

Thomas's Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ tells the story of how the boy Jesus formed 12 sparrows out of clay. "Then Jesus clapping together the palms of his hands, called to the sparrows and said to them: Go, fly away; and while ye live remember me. So the sparrows fled away, making a noise. (I. 8,9.)

Evidently many early Christians believed in these foolish stories literally. It is not difficult to believe that many still believed them in the sixth century.

So, yes, given this evidence, I do believe the reader of 5.110 is intended to believe that Jesus literally formed the bird out of clay and breathed life it it, just as they are clearly intended to believe the rest of that passage in an historical sense.

This is one of the passages I will be interested in asking my Muslim friends about, to find out how they understand it.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

I'm curious, John...

Isn't it rather disengenuous to go back and start replying again to messages you seem to have ignored the first time around?

It's not that I ignored them. I'm sorry but I didn't notice them before. Sometimes I will go back and read something I skipped or maybe read something more carefully.

But you are free to reply or respond to any messages of mine at any time you choose to, and I'll be happy to answer. It doesn't matter why you didn't ask before.

Quote:

John 3: 17---I didn't see anything that said Romans Catholics once believed and taught that God literally had sex with Mary to produce Jesus Christ. If you have evidence of that, could you please post it?

Quote:

Just as soon as you answer my questions regarding Jesus being the literal Son of God that you have yet to respond to.

Jesus was and is the Son of God in the sense in which the New Testament means for people to understand that. The title "the Son of God" has reference to the fact of Jesus' divinity and special relationship with God the Father. Seeing Jesus in action was the same as seeing what the Father is like.

Let's look at some key texts in the Bible about this point.

Matt. 3: 17-- "And suddenly a voice came from heaven [God the Father], saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well please."

God the Father Himself testified that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Matt. 16: 16-- "And Simon Peter answered and said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'" Notice that in the next verse, Jesus tells Peter that it was God the Father who revealed this truth to Peter [that Jesus is the Son of God].

John 1: 18-- "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [the one and only, the unique] Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him" (NKJV).

The vast majority of ancient Greek manuscripts reads "only begotten Son," but some of the earliest and many good manuscripts reads, "only begotten God." Both readings are acceptable. The word "begotten" here simply means "unique," "one of a kind," "one and only."

Notice that it is describing Jesus Christ as being the one and only Son "who is in the bosom of the Father." What does that mean? Certainly it is not talking about the Son literally being on the breast of God. All Christians know that it means the Son is the closest One to God the Father and has known Him intimately. That is why the Son is best able to explain God (last part of verse 18).

Compare this with John 1: 14-- "And the Word [Christ] became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we behold His glory, the glory as of the only begotten [the one and only] of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Here it says that beholding Christ is similar to beholding God the Father because Christ as His Son is similar to His Father. Jesus talks at length about His similarity to the Father in John 5: 19-47 and again in John 14: 7-11.

1 John 4: 15 says, "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God."

Do you personally believe Jesus is the Son of God? I certainly do.

The title "the Son of God," then, has reference to Jesus' divinity and special relationship with God the Father, and has nothing to do with God's having produced Jesus by having sex or through any other means.

The Bible uses the words, "ho whyos tou theou" (THE Son of God), meaning that Jesus is one of a kind. It is not possible for anyone besides Jesus Christ to be "THE Son."

"These [signs written in the gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, THE SON OF GOD, and that [by] believing you may have life in His name" (John 20: 31).

"He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" (1 John 5: 12).

When Jesus was born, the angel of God told Mary, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; THEREFORE, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God" (Luke 1: 35).

Quote:

Is Mary the Mother of God, John? Should we be "revering" her as the Catholic Church does?

I'd just like your opinion...Casey

No. The Bible never refers to Mary as the mother of God. Mary was blessed by God with the privilege of being the human mother of our Lord Jesus Christ when he became flesh and lived among us. (See Luke 1: 35, 43; Matt. 1: 20-23.) We consider her blessed and believe her to have been a godly, wonderful woman, but we should not worship her or pray to her.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I understand Casey to be saying that the Qur'an and the Holy Bible are all incorporated together in his faith...

Yes, that's true, and I can appreciate that. That is Casey's personal faith, and it's fine if Casey chooses to believe that. What I am interested in, though, is discovering what the Qur'an itself actually says. I can't go by his faith and he can't go by my faith. It's necessary for each person to study the Bible for himself and find out through prayer and study what the Scriptures teach.

It's the same as regards Ellen White. I believe she was a true prophet of God and that she teaches the same as is in the Bible. But I don't expect anyone to believe it simply because I say so, and I am sure Casey wouldn't want me to believe what he says about the Qur'an and the Bible simply on the basis of what he says. That is why we present evidence and reasons, and why it is so important for each person to study the Bible and, in this case, the Qur'an, for himself.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes, that's true, and I can appreciate that. That is Casey's personal faith, and it's fine if Casey chooses to believe that.

Hey .... I appreciate these comments. I have been trying to promote this type of attitude here on CA since I arrived. So, I welcome this. And I hope to see more of it . Thank you.

[John317]

Quote:

Yes, that's true, and I can appreciate that. That is Casey's personal faith, and it's fine if Casey chooses to believe that.

Hey .... I appreciate these comments. I have been trying to promote this type of attitude here on CA since I arrived. So, I welcome this. And I hope to see more of it . Thank you.

You're certainly welcome, Redwood.

[John317]

Quote:

Where do you find the Biblical evidence that God promised Ishmael the land of Palestine?

Genesis Chapter 17:

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

"And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations."

"This (is) my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised."

"And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you." [KJV-Bible - Genesis 17:7-11]

Abraham circumcized Ishmael along with the rest of his house.

Circumcision being the token of that covenant, which is a different covenant than the Covenant of Promise to Isaac.

Read Galations chapter 4, verses 21 through 31.

This is about the 4th time I've posted that reference in Galations.

All people are counted as Abraham's seed who join him in placing their faith in God's promises of the Messiah. So to that extent all the descendants of Ishmael are included in God's covenant promises. I am included also, as well as everyone else, who meets the conditions.

The Arabs lay claim to the land as descendants of Abraham’s first-born son, Ishmael. And normally, they would have a legitimate right to it because in eastern society, the first-born was the rightful heir to his father’s wealth.

But the land promised to Abraham and his descendants didn’t pass to the first-born. Look what God says in Genesis 17:19 and 21. “Then God said, ‘Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. [21] But my covenant I will establish with Isaac,…”

So God confirms that the land will bypass the first-born and be given to Isaac and through him to the Jewish people. But He didn’t totally forget Ishmael and the Arabs. Let’s look at exactly what God promised Ishmael.

First, God promised that Ishmael would be the father of twelve sons in Genesis 17:20. We’re all familiar with the twelve sons of Jacob that became the heads of the twelve tribes of Israel, but Jacob’s uncle, Ishmael, was also promised twelve sons. Genesis 25:13-16 confirms that this promise was fulfilled.

Genesis 25:13-16, “These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, [14] Mishma, Dumah, Massa, [15] Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. [16] These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps.”

Second, God promised that the descendants of Ishmael would be too numerous to count in (Genesis 16:10). This promise has likewise been fulfilled. There are approximately 200 million Arabs in the world today.

The third thing God promised was to make Ishmael a great nation (Genesis 17:20). This fulfillment can also be seen today. The Arabs constitute a great nation composed of twenty-one separate states.

Fourth, Ishmael was promised the land east of the land promised to Isaac’s descendants. Remember, this was the second meaning of the last phrase of Genesis 16:12. In Genesis 25:18 we find that Ishmael’s sons “…settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the border of Egypt, as you go toward Asshur.” This is the land that the present day Arabs still populate – south and east of Israel. In fact they occupy 5.3 million square miles of oil rich land in this region.

And fifth, God said that Ishmael would have a personality like a donkey and because of his stubbornness would live in hostility and contention with everyone around him, especially his brothers (Genesis 16:12). This attribute of hostility toward everyone, especially their Jewish brethren, is easily seen in today’s Arabic peoples and has been a part of their nature from the very beginning. Genesis 25:18 says that Ishmael’s sons “…lived in hostility toward all their brothers.”

So, as you can see, God has faithfully kept his unconditional promises to Ishmael and his descendants.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Did Moses actually write Exodus himself, or did he dictate it to scribes, as Paul is known to have done?

How can we know how old the most ancient text of the Qur'an is, out of curiosity?

By various means-- analysis of writing materials, analysis of writing style, carbon dating, etc.

We know how old the ancient Hebrew and Greek manuscripts are. That is not difficult. For instance, if you get a good Greek New Testament, it will give you a list of all the hundreds of manuscripts and their dates. I'm sure the same thing has been done with all the ancient copies of the Qur'an.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

"Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10,11 NASB

It says:

The Testimony of Jesus is "Worship God", not "Worship Me".

The Spirit of Prophecy is that Testimony: "Worship God".

The Qur'an is given by God, and could not be created by man, because the Qur'an confirms the Spirit of Prophecy and the Words of Jesus and all the Words of God given before the Qur'an.

God will teach us of His Love that is for all the earth. We will all acknowledge the Qur'an as inspired by Him, as we acknowledge Moses as inspired by Him.

The proof?

Think how little we all knew about Islam and the Qur'an before 9/11, and compare it to how much we have learned since.

Now think about how much we will have learned in just another year's time.

Jesus Christ is working on our hearts constantly, because we know His Life.

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

Why would God order the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam?

"John 3: 17"

I suggest a deep look into our hearts in order to understand how deeply racism and hatred have infiltrated all in these last days, simply because we are the descendants of people who were largely ignorant of Islam.

It is a fundemental belief of Adventism that Lucifer rebelled against God's Government, and was cast out of heaven because of that.

What is the job of the angels in God's Government? Is it not to bow down to man - no, not in worship, but in service? It is written in the Bible by Paul:

"But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" [KJV-Bible - Hebrews 1:13-14]

Don't servants bow down to those whom they serve, certainly if God commands them to?

Don't ministers? Did not Jesus wash the disciples feet, bowing down to each, including Judas?

But we know Lucifer did not agree to serve, or "bow down", because he believed he was smarter than God, he believed his way of egotistical service to self was better than God's Government of service to others.

The Qur'an confirms this Adventist belief, in the following verses that are now being used here to denegrate it, used by the very denomination whom God has prepared to hear the Qur'an:

"It is We Who have placed you with authority on earth, and provided you therein with means for the fulfillment of your life: Small are the thanks that you give!"

"It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who bow down."

"(God) said: "What prevented you from bowing down when I commanded you?" He said: "I am better than he: You did create me from fire, and him from clay.""

"(God) said: "Get you down from this: It is not for you to be arrogant here: Get out, for you are of the meanest (of creatures).""

"He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up.""

"(God) said: "Be you among those who have respite.""

"He said: "Because you have thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on your straight way:"

""Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor will you find, in most of them, gratitude (for your mercies).""

"(God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow you, Hell will I fill with you all."

""O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as you wish: But approach not this tree, or you run into harm and transgression.""

"Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): He said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest you should become angels or such beings as live for ever.""

"And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser."

"So by deceit he brought about their fall: When they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?""

"They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If you forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we will certainly be lost.""

"(God) said: "Get you down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, for a time.""

"He said: "Therein will you live, and therein will you die; but from it will you be taken out (at last).""

"O you Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!"

"O you Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: For he and his tribe watch you from a position where you cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 7:10-27]

This is the story of Lucifer as we teach it ourselves.

Only by reading the Qur'an with Jesus in our hearts can we overcome the hatred and racism passed down through generations of Christianity to us. It doesn't have to be ugly racism, or ugly hatred, all it has to do is cause us to make assumptions based our own inherited traditions.

[John317]

Quote:

"Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10,11 NASB

It says:

The Testimony of Jesus is "Worship God", not "Worship Me".

But, according to the Bible, Jesus Christ is God. 2 Peter 1: 1 calls Jesus "our God and Savior." Titus 2: 13 says that we are to look "for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." Col. 2: 9 says that "in Him [Christ] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Hebrew 1: 10 calls the Son "Lord" or "Adonai" and says, "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands." John 1: 1, 3 says plainly that "the word," Christ, was God and that "all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

Do you believe these verses? How do you understand them?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Surah VII. 157 (The Heights) says that the "the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospels..."

This is somewhat similar to Surah LXI.6 [The Ranks] where it says that Jesus "brought good tidings of a messenger who would come after him, whose name is the Praised One," i.e. Muhammad.

Where do we find Mohammad described in the Torah and the Gospels?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Surah XXXIII.40 says that Muhammad is "the seal of the prophets." What does this mean? Does it mean that Muhammad would be the last prophet in history?

The Qur'an "makes no distinction between Jesus and Moses, Abraham, and Ishmael." Could you explain what that means?

The Qur'an IV.171 says that the Messiah was only a "messenger of Allah."

Surah IX.31 appears to deny that it is right to worship of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. Do you agree with this understanding of that verse?

Surah IV.171 also appears very plainly to deny the Trinity: "So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three"-- Cease! (it is) better for you!-- Allah is only One God."

Do you believe that it is wrong to worship or pray to Jesus Christ and that the doctrine of the Trinity is false?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Surah XVI. 125 speaks of the Sabbath, and says that "the Sabbath was appointed only for those at variance thereon." It appears that according to this statement, the Sabbath was not made for all mankind. Could you please explain this?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Only by reading the Qur'an with Jesus in our hearts can we overcome the hatred and racism passed down through generations of Christianity to us. It doesn't have to be ugly racism, or ugly hatred, all it has to do is cause us to make assumptions based our own inherited traditions.

Do you say these things when you are with Muslims? Do you consider yourself a Muslim or a Christian? Or both? How do Muslims respond to you when you try to persuade them to study the Bible about Jesus? Do you tell them that the Bible and the Qur'an are all one book?

It sounds to me as if you don't really accept all 66 books of the Bible as it reads today, say in the KJV or NASV, NIV, etc. I get the feeling that you believe it is corrupted and that we need the Qur'an to understand it correctly. Is this true?

I started studying the Qur'an about 1985, long before 9/11. That event had nothing to do with my interest in it. I doubt there are many who think better of Islam because of the attack on New York City.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

Do you say these things when you are with Muslims?

Why do you ask?

Quote:

Do you consider yourself a Muslim or a Christian? Or both?

What do my messages indicate I am?

Do I not behave like a Christian?

Quote:

How do Muslims respond to you when you try to persuade them to study the Bible about Jesus?

Are you saying you have no more responsibility than Muslims do to understand God through Jesus?

Quote:

Do you tell them that the Bible and the Qur'an are all one book?

Why wouldn't I?

If you've read the Qur'an, shouldn't you be telling them too?

Quote:

I started studying the Qur'an about 1985, long before 9/11.

If you had even read the Qur'an, you wouldn't be asking the questions you have here.

No Christian has to become Muslim, we just need to start showing the Love of Christ that was shown us.

But we have free will to hate too.

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

2 Peter 1: 1 calls Jesus "our God and Savior."

That's not what it says.

"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" [KJV-Bible - 2 Peter 1:1]

It says "The righteousness of God", and "our Savior Jesus Christ", the two being separate.

Not what you've changed it to be.

Quote:

Titus 2: 13 says that we are to look "for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

That's not what it says:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of THE (not "our") great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" [KJV-Bible - Titus 2:13-14]

"THE Great God" and "our Saviour Jesus Christ" are two separate Individuals.

Why are you changing these verses?

Quote:

Col. 2: 9 says that "in Him [Christ] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

Let me remind you again Whom our God, which you are arguing against, is:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;"

"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:"

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." [KJV-Bible - Acts 17:24-28]

Jesus Christ is the First Fruits of all men...

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." [KJV-Bible - Philippians 2:6-8]

Whose teachings and prayer of John chapter 17 made you and I equal with God as well, so the "Godhead" lives bodily in us as well, though not fully as yet.

Poetry, Spiritual Words and concepts to teach us the Love of God through the Life and Works of Jesus Christ.

Quote:

Hebrew 1: 10 calls the Son "Lord" or "Adonai" and says, "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands."

Metaphor, Spiritual Words teaching the Character of the True God through the Character of Jesus who lived His Life as God would have among us, if God were to make Himself human, instead of remaining "in Whom we move and breathe, and have our being".

Read it in context, all metaphor, all allegory, as God has always communicated with men:

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,"

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (his) Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

"Who being the brightness of (his) glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."

"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

"And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire."

"But unto the Son (he saith), Thy throne, O God, (is) for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness (is) the sceptre of thy kingdom."

"Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, (even) thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

"They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;"

"And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail."

"But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"

"Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" [KJV-Bible - Hebrews 1:1-14]

Quote:

John 1: 1, 3 says plainly that "the word," Christ, was God and that "all things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."

Plainly? I agree. "Word", logos, means just that.

John says Word, not Christ. Rather isn't John say that Jesus is the fulfilment of the Word of God?

The WORD of God was with God always, the WORD through which men have recorded that all things were made by God.

I'll let Thomas Jefferson comment on your "translation" of "Logos", or WORD, into metaphor:

-------

"En arche en o logos, kai o logos en pros ton Theon kai Theos en o logos. `otos en en arche pros ton Theon. Panta de ayto egeneto, kai choris ayto egeneto ode en, o gegonen"

Which truly translated means `in the beginning God existed, and reason (or mind) was with God, and that mind was God. This was in the beginning with God. All things were created by it, and without it was made not one thing which was made' John 1:1-3. Yet this text, so plainly declaring the doctrine of Jesus that the world was created by the supreme, intelligent being, has been perverted by modern Christians to build up a second person of their tritheism by a mistranslation of the word. One of it's legitimate meanings indeed is `a word.' But, in that sense, it makes an unmeaning jargon: while the other meaning `reason', equally legitimate, explains rationally the eternal preexistence of God, and his creation of the world. Knowing how incomprehensible it was that `a word,' the mere action or articulation of the voice and organs of speech could create a world, they undertake to make of this articulation a second preexisting being, and ascribe to him, and not to God, the creation of the universe.

-------

Jesus during His lifetime studied the Word, He embraced all Truth from God given to Israel, from Moses to the prophets, whose Words of inspiration guided Him through the events of His ministry following His baptism. We can read as He pointedly does things the prophets required of the Messiah. The "Word became Flesh" at the age of about 30, when Jesus was baptized as recorded in all the Gospels.

Are you aware that the Adventist Church did not accept the "Trinity" doctrine until it was threatened with being defined as cult in the 1950's?

How do these trinitarian teachings spread the Gospel of what the True Character of God is really like?

All they do is cast doubt that such a three-part god could exist, and give fuel to people who want to claim salvation exclusively for themselves at the expense of the rest of the world.

Quote:

Do you believe these verses?

I believe every one of them.

Quote:

How do you understand them?

By listening to what they say and asking God - and God ALONE - what He's saying in them.

Do you believe the Testimony of Jesus, the Spirit of Prophecy, which is "Worship God"?

Do you believe Jesus was calling for the Worship of Himself?

Again, is Mary the Mother of God? Is God the Father of God?

Casey

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

>> Yes, that's true, and I can appreciate that. That is Casey's personal faith, and it's fine if Casey chooses to believe that.<<

Hey .... I appreciate these comments. I have been trying to promote this type of attitude here on CA since I arrived. So, I welcome this. And I hope to see more of it . Thank you.

Re: >><< There's no doubt there's much to be sought after in the effort to allow everyone to keep their own beliefs. OTOH if this was a primary object of living, in order to keep the peace, then Jesus never would have needed to come to this earth. He could have allowed those who chose that type of freedom for themselves, a place on this earth along with the archenemy of the individuals who wanted at last to become the sons of God, there to try to hold onto independence whatever the cost to others.

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:36 KJV

"Jesus, therefore, said unto the Jews who believed in him, `If ye may remain in my word, truly my disciples ye are, and ye shall know the truth"

John 8:31 YLT

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32 KJV

"Jesus saith unto him, I am....the truth..." John 14:6 KJV

Regards!

[John317]

Quote:

2 Peter 1: 1 calls Jesus "our God and Savior."

That's not what it says.

"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" [KJV-Bible - 2 Peter 1:1]

It says "The righteousness of God", and "our Savior Jesus Christ", the two being separate.

Not what you've changed it to be.

Quote:

Titus 2: 13 says that we are to look "for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

That's not what it says:

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of THE (not "our") great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" [KJV-Bible - Titus 2:13-14]

"THE Great God" and "our Saviour Jesus Christ" are two separate Individuals.

For right now, please see the way the New King James, the New American Standard Version, and Robert Young's Literal translates Titus 2: 13, then see further information below for a fully documented explanation of the Greek:

1) New King James Version:

... looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

2) NASV-- "...looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus..."

3) Robert Young's Literal:

... waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

Quote:

Why are you changing these verses?

I am not changing anything.

Here's the New King James of 2 Peter 1: 1:

1) To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

2) The New American Standard:

To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

3) New International Version:

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

4) Robert Young's Literal:

2 Peter 1: 1-- "... to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ."

If you read those verses for yourself in the New King James, New American Standard, New International, Revised Standard Version or any other modern translations, you will see very quickly that I am not changing anything at all.

We know a lot more about Greek grammar now than they knew in 1611 when the KJV was translated. They did a fantastic job of translating and the King James is still my personal favorite, but you have to remember that they were translating almost 400 years ago!!!

You will find that virtually all modern translations have it exactly the way I gave it to you. Please check out those verses in any of the on-line Bible translations. See the New King James, the New American Standard, the Revised Standard, the New Revised Standard, the Revised English Bible, the New International Version, etc., some of which I have already pasted on this post.

I've been studying the Koine Greek of the New Testament since 1974 when I first took a class in NT Greek at Loma Linda University. Let me give you what 3 well-known, highly regarded textbooks on Greek grammar say about those verses. You could take this information to any teacher of Greek and verify that what I am giving you is true. You also have the evidence of all the many modern NT translations, which are the work of literally thousands of the world's top scholars in Koine Greek.

"Granville Sharp's rule summarized: When kai connects two singular substantives of personal reference (nouns, adjectives, or participles, but not personal names nor plurals) of the same case and the article precedes the first substantive but not the second substantive, the second substantive always relates to the same person that is described by the first substantive. Titus 2: 13--- ten epithaneian tes doches tou megalou theou kai soteros hemon Iesou Xristou. the... appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ." (Refresh Your Greek, Practical Helps For Reading the New Testament, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Moody Press, Chicago, 1989, p. 1154.)

"(1) With Nouns Connected by kai. The following rule by Granville Sharp of a century back still proves to be true: 'When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, if the article ho or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a farther description of the first-named person.'

tou kuriou kai soteros Iesou Xristou. Of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 2: 20.

The article here indicates that Jesus is both Lord and Savior. So in 2 Pt. 1: 1 tou theou hemon kai soteros Iesou Xristou [color:#CC0000]means that Jesus in our God and Savior. After the same manner Titu. 2: 13, tou megalou theou kai soteros Iesou Xristou, asserts that Jesus is the great God and Savior." (A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, Dana, Mantey, The Macmillan Company, p. 147.)

"(2) Special use of the Greek article:

1. With the conjunction kai

When two nouns are joined by the conjunction kai:

a. If both nouns have the definite article they refer to different persons (or things). ho apostolos kai ho mathetes... These are two people.

b. If the first of the two nouns has the article and the second does not, the two are one person ( or thing). ho apostolos kai mathetes. This is one person." (The Essentials Of New Testament Greek, Ray Summers, Broadman Press, Nashville, Tennessee, 1950, p. 130.)

If you need further explanation, let me know. In the meantime, see 2 Peter 2: 20, which reads, "the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." Do you agree 2 Peter 2: 20 is referring to one person who is both Lord and Savior? Here it is: tou kuriou hemon kai soteros Iesou Xristou. If the last clause read, kai soteros Iesou tou Xristou, then it would be referring to two different persons.

Also compare the Greek of 2 Tim 1: 1; 1 Tim. 1: 2 and Titus 1: 4.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

Surah VII. 157 (The Heights) says that the "the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospels..."

This is somewhat similar to Surah LXI.6 [The Ranks] where it says that Jesus "brought good tidings of a messenger who would come after him, whose name is the Praised One," i.e. Muhammad.

Where do we find Mohammad described in the Torah and the Gospels?

The Words of the Bible and the Qur'an are Spiritual, as Jesus taught us.

Why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel? Or was He? Immanuel means "God with us", and Jesus' name means "Savior". So isn't Jesus' name Spiritually "Immanual", because God is our only Savior and through Jesus He lives with us?

As I have already said, Muhammad is the Good Samaritan, whose name is "much praised", and he was prophesied by Jesus in the parable of the same name.

As such, Muhammad is described in the Torah - he is specifically prophesied of in Isaiah as I've alteady posted, as the "righteous man from the east" whom God raised to teach His righteousness to Arabia.

Reiterated in Isaiah chapter 46 as:

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken (it), I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed (it), I will also do it.

"Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that (are) far from righteousness:

"I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory." [KJV-Bible - Isaiah 46:11-13]

The words of the third horseman of the Apocalypse are the words of the Good Samaritan to the Innkeeper, who brought the wounded man who had been ignored by the Levite (Judaism) and the priest (Paul wrote Arabia off as under the Law and not the Promise).

The words are:

"And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and (see) thou hurt not the oil and the wine." [KJV-Bible - Revelation 6:6]

Which words can only be resolved Biblically to Jesus' Parable of the Good Samaritan:

"And went to (him), and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

"And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave (them) to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee." [KJV-Bible - Luke 10:34-35]

Christianity is the "innkeeper" of the world, made so by Jesus when He gave Peter the metaphorical "keys of the Kingdom of God".

Muhammad helped human beings when other human beings passed them by.

The concept of what Muhammad did as the Good Samaritan is what God and the Bible are all about - Loving God with all of your mind, all of your strength, all of your Spirit, and all of your heart, and loving your neighbor as yourself.

So what is the Innkeeper of planet earth going to do?

Casey

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

2 Peter 1: 1 calls Jesus "our God and Savior."

That's not what it says.

"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" [KJV-Bible - 2 Peter 1:1]

It says "The righteousness of God", and "our Savior Jesus Christ", the two being separate.

Not what you've changed it to be.

"Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ..." 2 Peter 1:1 NASB

"Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:"

2 Peter 1:1 YLT

"SIMON PETER, a servant and apostle (special messenger) of Jesus Christ, to those who have received (obtained an equal privilege of) like precious faith with ourselves in and through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:" 2 Peter 1 AMP

Notice the agreement with the Old Testament re: the Savior.

"My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge,My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior.... " 2 Samuel 22:3 NASB

"For I am the LORD your God,The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place." Isaiah 43:3 NASB

"Truly You are God, who hide Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior!" Isaiah 45:15 NKJV

"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31 NASB

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. " 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 NASB

Regards!

[CaseyButler]

Why are you asking me these questions instead of asking God?

God answered them for me, He will answer them for you.

Quote:

Surah XXXIII.40 says that Muhammad is "the seal of the prophets." What does this mean? Does it mean that Muhammad would be the last prophet in history?

What does God tell you that the "Seal of the Prophets", addressed to Arabic-speaking peoples, means...

In context:

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: And God has full knowledge of all things." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 33:40]

Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets to Islam, the religion commanded by God for Arabic speaking peoples. Islam and Christianity are separate, with different rites, customs, and traditions, exactly as Judaism and Christianity are separate.

But all share the same Word of God and His Law.

Please read:

...Say: "I believe in the Book which God has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. God is our Lord and your Lord: For us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. God will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 42:15]

Muhammad, as I've said before, was given the righteousness of Moses and taught his people the Law in order to bring order and God's Love to the chaos caused by Judaism and Christianity ignoring Arabic lands.

Nothing Muhammad instituted as worship to God is not recorded in the Bible as having been previously approved of by God.

And again, the Bible is included in the Qur'an.

[CaseyButler]

God through Muhammad teaches adherence to the Ten Commandments in the Qur'an.

Muhammad kept the Sabbath and the Qur'an contains several admonitions to the People of the Book for corrupting it.

The call to "Friday Prayer" is in fact the remnants of what Adventists call "the preparation day". Friday Prayer was instituted as the harbinger of the Sabbath.

We know that Friday was not meant to replace Sabbath, as Sunday has for many Christians, because Muslims were allowed to buy and sell on Friday, which practice the Ten Commandments forbids on the "Day of Rest", Sabbath.

We know Muslims were allowed to buy and sell on Friday because God put that information in the Qur'an for us to read.

Please read:

"O you who believe! When the call is proclaimed to prayer on Friday (the Day of Assembly), hasten earnestly to the Remembrance of God, and leave off business (and traffic): That is best for you if you but knew!

"And when the Prayer is finished, then may you disperse through the land, and seek of the Bounty of God. And celebrate the Praises of God often (and without stint): That you may prosper.

"But when they see some bargain or some amusement, they disperse headlong to it, and leave you standing. Say: "The (blessing) from the Presence of God is better than any amusement or bargain! And God is the Best to provide (for all needs)." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 62:9-11]

Quote:

Surah XVI. 125 speaks of the Sabbath, and says that "the Sabbath was appointed only for those at variance thereon." It appears that according to this statement, the Sabbath was not made for all mankind. Could you please explain this?

All of mankind is at variance with the Sabbath, except those who understand and keep it.

As a Seventh-Day Adventist, you haven't noticed this yet?

Your quote here is an example of what I mean about translations. We suffer the same thing with the Bible and modern translations.

The Abdullah Yusef Ali translation is respected, by most Arabic-speakers, for its accuracy in translating Arabic to English.

This same verse in the Yusef Ali translation reads:

"The Sabbath was only made (strict) for those who disagreed (as to its observance); But God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment, as to their differences." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 16:124]

Here we find Jesus' admonition to the Pharisees:

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath." [KJV-Bible - Mark 2:27-28]

If you understand the meaning of Jesus' Words, you will understand the Words of God through Muhammad above.

They say exactly the same thing.

Casey

[CaseyButler]

Your resume is impressive...

But you can't tell me if Mary is the Mother of God, or if God is the Father of God or not, and that's a problem.

How is that Spiritually profitable, as opposed to monetarily profitable?

The translation of "God and Savior Jesus Christ" is nothing to do with new knowledge of Greek, it is everything to do with adapting the Bible to the Roman theology of the Trinity.

Do you have a shrine to the Mother of God in your house.. If not, why are you risking the wrath of both God and the Lamb in not honoring His "Wife" and "Mother"?

We need to open our eyes to what we've done.

The sixth commandment is "Thou shalt not kill", yet in modern translations the commandment is rendered "Thou shalt not murder".

This "Christian" scholars have done to justify and authorize government killing in retribution for crimes and during war.

But the commandments were given to bring PEACE to the earth. War does not bring peace, nor does killing criminals bring peace.

Indeed the practice of killing human beings at all guarantees that the innocent will die and more killing will result.

Study the use of the Hebrew word "ratsach" which is translated as "kill" in some translations and "murder" others.

What does a little study tell you, John... Does ratsach mean thou shalt not kill or thou shalt not murder?

[CaseyButler]

Thank you for updating me with the modern translations.

Then you must know... Please tell me, is Mary the Mother of God, and is God the Father of God?

Will Adventists suffer purgatory as described by Jesus in His parable of Abraham and Lazarus, because we do not respect God's Wife and Mother?

Casey