Moderators John317 Posted December 6, 2007 Moderators Posted December 6, 2007 God inspired the Prophet Muhammad to write... Did Muhammad actually write the Qur'an or did some of his disciples do the actual writing. I have read that Muhammad himself was unable to write. For instance, the Qur'an itself [about VII.157 (?) (The Heights)] refers to "the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write." Do you know how old the most ancient text of the Qur'an is? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 6, 2007 Moderators Posted December 6, 2007 Quote: The Qur'an states clearly that Jesus is Christ, the Messiah. What else can that mean? Who the Messiah is and what His mission is, is more important than merely having the title. It's like the title, "Son of God." I understand your point about how offensive that title may have been to the people living in Mecca during the 6th century AD. But let's forget about the use of the title. If the Koran was truly inspired by the same God who inspired the Bible, why wouldn't it teach the same thing about Christ's relationship to the Father as the Bible did? Why didn't the Koran agree with the rest of Holy Scripture on that important point-- who Christ is and what He came to earth for? The Koran does not say that Christ was killed or crucified, does it? Moreover, does it say that Isa (Jesus) was only a messenger or apostle (IV. 167). Jesus was not even the most important prophet, according to the Koran. The Koran makes no distinction between Jesus and Moses, Abraham, and Ishmael (11.136). We can discuss the Koran's view of Jesus Christ and compare it with the Bible's as we exchange posts. Does the Qur'an teach or mention that Jesus never sinned? Where also does it teach that Jesus Christ lived with God the Father in heaven long before coming to this earth, as Jesus said in John 17: 5, 24? Quote: ... We have nothing to fear from the Qur'an, again and again God tells the world in the Qur'an that the Qur'an is the Word of God for Arabic Speaking Peoples only, and nobody else. Do you have a reference for that? Why do Islamists believe, then, that the whole world will one day be Muslim? Where does that idea come from? Remember that Muslims were attempting to take over Europe back in the 1500s and before. Quote: .... the Qur'an is the miracle we could not produce ourselves because we are human I know that many Muslims are convinced, as Muhammad himself was, that only a miracle of God can account for the existence of the Qur'an. Muhammad couldn't imagine how such a book could have come out of himself alone. Perhaps there was some other source besides him. Maybe he did have help. Could you please point to a particular part of the Koran that you are sure could not have been created by a human being working alone? Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 6, 2007 Moderators Posted December 6, 2007 Originally Posted By: John317 Does the Holy Spirit inspire one prophet to say one thing and another prophet to contradict the previous one? Not being sure that the activists of the Muslim faith are accurately reflecting the book they allegedly make effort to follow, anymore than the Christian crusades accurately reflected the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, I'm hoping and praying that this promise will be fulfilled in the lives of both professing Muslims and professing Christians. I understand your meaning and agree with you. But we're looking to see if there is evidence that the Qur'an is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Granted, Christians have not always behaved in accordance with the Bible, but there is no question that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul and Peter and the rest of the prophets and apostles to write it. We know this, for one thing, because we compare the New Testament teaching with the terrible, sinful behavior of people who claim to believe in it, and we find they (and we) fall far short of God's glory. The Bible tells us the truth about ourselves. The question we're trying to answer is, does the Koran give evidence that the same Spirit that inspired the prophets and apostles to write the Bible also inspired Muhammad to write the Koran? Is it reasonable to expect that true prophets will agree with each other, particularly on central teachings, such as the way of salvation and who God is and what He is like? Just take one example: does the Qur'an agree with the Bible on how people attain right relationship with God and are saved? In other words, does the Qur'an proclaim the true gospel? What does the Qur'an say about this? Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 7, 2007 Moderators Posted December 7, 2007 ...Islam is fascinating, the traditions and customs that are an outgrowth of the Qur'an... But it's important to remember, trying to learn what the Qur'an is about from studying Islam is like trying to learn what the Bible is about by studying Judaism or Catholicism. Yes, I understand. I wouldn't study how Muslims believe today in order to try and understand the Koran. For that, I would only study the text itself, but I know it would be necessary to study it in many different translations because a single translation is apt to give you many wrong ideas. Quote: Judaism has the Talmud to explain the Torah, Islam has the Hadith and Sunnah which essentially attempt the same thing. But God is only in the Qur'an, I think you'll find, and His message is mainly to us today. I am thinking of going to a Muslim friend of mine and just asking him to explain different things in the Qur'an. He was born in Afghanistan and reads the Qur'an in Arabic. When he was a kid, he used to tell me he wanted to study to be a Muslim cleric. But since then, he has gone through an SDA college and studied to be a doctor's assistant. I have no idea how this has changed his views, if at all. We've never discussed religion up to now. I particularly want to find out what he gets out of the Qur'an in regard to what happens when a person dies and the punishment of the wicked. Also how he understands who Jesus is and how God saves people. It should be very interesting. I feel so sorry for him and his family. The mother has breast cancer and the father has heart trouble and recently was in an accident. They are cousins. They hadn't seen one another until the night they "got married." It was an arranged marriage, of course-- arranged by their families. They really don't get along together too well. Her name is Mabuba and his Faruq (I think that's the spelling). They may have to return to Afghanistan, which would be dangerous for the whole family, especially the boys, because that society is a warrior society and the boys are completely Americanized. Please pray for them. Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 7, 2007 Moderators Posted December 7, 2007 ..."He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many (countries) shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, (even) Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon." [KJV-Bible - Daniel 11:40-41] Who is the chief of the children of Ammon who escapes the best efforts of this powerful king of the north? Ammon was always an enemy to the Children of Israel. Jews are forbidden to give any Ammonite water even to this day. What evidence is there that a single Ammonite drinks anybody's water today? Maybe they do, but if so, there will be a lot of very surprised anthropologists and historians, and they will need to rewrite a few books. Of course that has happened before. Quote: The Bible tells us everything. We just have to watch. Casey The children of Edom no longer exist. They were completely wiped out close to 1500 years ago, just as Bible prophecy predicted they would be. This is remarkable because the book of Obadiah predicted that Edom would eventually be totally wiped out, without a single surviver. It made this prediction about 500 BC at a time when many Edomites still existed. Herod the Great was an Edomite so we know that some descendants of Esau still existed until the time of Christ. (See Obadiah 15-18.) The last of the Moabites disappeared off the pages of history about 600 AD. Again this is remarkable because Isaiah (16: 14) predicted around 700 BC that Moah would be "very small and feeble." As far as the Ammonites are concerned, not a single one of them exists, either. And that also is just exactly what Bible prophecy predicted (Ezekiel 25: 5, 10; Zeph. 2: 9). These predictions were made between 600 and 450 BC at a time when many Ammonites still existed. In fact, Ammonites were yet numerous in 150 AD, but by about 250 AD, they had disappeared. Here is what Unger's Bible Dictionary says about the Ammonites: "The doom and desolation prophesied against Ammon has been literally fulfilled. 'Nothing but ruins are found here by amazed explorers. Not an inhabited village remains, and not an Ammonite exists on the face of the earth' (Thomson, Land and Book, iii, 622)." Therefore it is beyond question that the names of those peoples in the prophecy of Daniel 11: 40 are used symbolically and not literally, since the Bible itself predicted they would no longer exist and history proves the Bible correct. Now the question is, can anyone point to such a prophecy in the Koran? Does the Koran contain clear predictive prophecy such as the ones we've looked at here or like the ones in Daniel 2 and 9? Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 7, 2007 Moderators Posted December 7, 2007 Quote: Could you please write about any differences between the Qur'an and the Bible? Are there in fact any differences? For instance, in the story of how Jesus was born, who Jesus was/is, and in who the Bible says made the world? I can give you my opinion, but I know that if you read the Qur'an without preconceptions asking God's guidance through the Holy Spirit, you will see the differences and understand more quickly than I did. Surah LXI. 6 ("The Ranks") says that Jesus "brought good tiding of a messenger who would come after him, whose name is the Praised One" i.e., Muhammad. Where does Jesus Christ refer to the coming of Muhammad? That question is similar to one I have about VII.157 (?) (The Heights) where it refers to "the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel..." Where do we find Muhammad described in the Torah and the Gospel? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 7, 2007 Moderators Posted December 7, 2007 The Qur'an says, "And [remember] when we said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam and they fell prostrate." (XVIII.51-- The Cave). Why would God order the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam? That seems to me to be contrary to the God portrayed in the Bible. He did order the angels to bow before Christ, but then the Bible teaches that Christ is not a created being like Adam is. The Christ of the Bible, of course, is truly God. See John 1: 1-3; Hebrews 1: 10; Col. 1: 17; 2: 9, etc. How do you view and understand these NT verses? Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Amelia Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Looks like Casey has left the discussion. Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p>
Moderators John317 Posted December 7, 2007 Moderators Posted December 7, 2007 He'll be back. Sometimes I have to go somewhere for a day or so, too. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 7, 2007 Moderators Posted December 7, 2007 I'm trying to determine what the view of the Qur'an is towards death and hell. I studied this once many years ago and found that most Muslims believe pretty much as most Christians, that the wicked burn endlessly in the fires of hell and that the saved go to be with God right after death. Here is a verse in the Qur'an that seems to offer some clue: It's found in the Surah, the Angels, XXXV.36, and says that "hell" does not bring about the death of the wicked. Other verses related to this are XLIII. 74, 77; LVI. 92-94 and LXX.15, 16. I am sure there are others related to the topic that I'm overlooking. I have one translation that actually says the wicked are "immortal" in hell, but I'm sure the original uses a word more like "forever." Do you know if that word means "endlessly" or something similar? Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
CaseyButler Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Quote: Your statements here are all conclusions. But we need to examine the evidence in the Koran and compare it with the Bible before we can draw such conclusions. The Bible is included in the Qur'an. Quote
CaseyButler Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Quote: Does the Qur'an teach that Jesus and the Father are in the hearts of Muslims everywhere? If so, please give the reference. There are many references in the Qur'an that teach that Jesus and the Father are in the hearts of Muslims everywhere. Here's an example: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, (art) in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." [KJV-Bible - John 17:20-21] Casey Quote
LifeHiscost Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Why would God order the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam? "John 3: 17" "Then I fell at his feet to worship him But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10,11 NASB Quote Lift Jesus up!!
CaseyButler Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Quote: True. Why don't they read it? We can discuss this as we go along. I think the Qur'an itself contains the reasons that Muslims don't read the Bible. Why don't Christians read the Qur'an? I would say you'll find that for the same reasons Muslims don't read the Bible. In the Qur'an, God states that the People of the Book have taken words out of their places, and set verses out of order (which is exactly what every sermon does, cherry-pick verses instead of reading chapters without interruption). These statements against the practice of presenting scripture in pieces have been used by Islamic scholars to cast doubt on the veracity of the Bible, many claim that the words have been changed and so the Bible is corrupt. Much like you are challenging the veracity of the Qur'an instead of reading it with God as your Guide, though I've asked you to and I've even stuck my neck out by witnessing that it is from God (it's a strange love some Christians claim to have). You are somewhat at a disadvantage, however, because the Qur'an includes everything in the Bible. God's way is simple. He just put the Bible in the Qur'an. The whole thing. Here is an example of God's opinion of cherry-picking verses and sermonizing on the Bible. It comes from the Qur'an: "There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is not part of the Book; and they say, "That is from God.", but it is not from God, it is they who tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it! "It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people: "Be you my worshippers rather than God's.": On the contrary (He would say) "Be you worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: For you have taught the Book and you have studied it earnestly." "Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! Would he bid you to unbelief after you have bowed your will (To God in Islam [meaning Submission])?" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:78-80] Quote: The attraction of the Arab for the Qur'an is often explained by Arabs as being directly related to the drum-like rhythm of the original Arabic. It is hypnotic in its effect. Nothing of this aspect comes across in its reading in English. On the contrary most readers of the English translation of the Qur'an find the language difficult and anything but beautiful to the ear or eye. To see what I am talking about, all one need do is read about 10 pages of Genesis, Isaiah, the Psalms, or the Gospels in any translation and compare these with 10 pages of the Qur'an. The better the translation, the more difficult it is to read yes. Just like, for example, the Young's Literal version of the Bible is more difficult to read than the King James, and certainly more difficult than modern version. Again, I hear racist opinion drawn from the Internet and other anti-Islamic sources coming from you. I am familiar with just about all of them, LOL, I used to believe them myself before God stepped in and led me to read the Qur'an with Jesus' love in my heart instead of church taught "Christian" elitism and racism. Recently a Seventh-Day Adventist gave a seminar "proving" that Muslims actually worship the "moon god" because the symbol of Islam is the star and crescent. Yet the Qur'an teaches: "Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Adore not the sun and the moon, but adore God Who created them, if it is Him you wish to serve." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 41:37] Racism is our evil. Jesus taught that we are all equal, loved by God equally. Knowing the Qur'an now, and God's presence therein, just the claim that God would ignore Arabic-speaking peoples as Christians have ignored them is blasphemous and... Well... not very smart. God is Great, He is reading our conversations, and Jesus has spread His Name throughout the world and most "Christians" haven't got a clue yet. But Christians who are followers of Jesus know. :-) Quote
CaseyButler Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 I'm curious, John... Isn't it rather disengenuous to go back and start replying again to messages you seem to have ignored the first time around? Quote: I didn't see anything that said Romans Catholics once believed and taught that God literally had sex with Mary to produce Jesus Christ. If you have evidence of that, could you please post it? Just as soon as you answer my questions regarding Jesus being the literal Son of God that you have yet to respond to. Is Mary the Mother of God, John? Should we be "revering" her as the Catholic Church does? I'd just like your opinion... Casey Quote
LifeHiscost Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost Not being sure that the activists of the Muslim faith are accurately reflecting the book they allegedly make effort to follow' date=' anymore than the Christian crusades accurately reflected the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, I'm hoping and praying that this promise will be fulfilled in the lives of both professing Muslims and professing Christians. [/quote'] I understand your meaning and agree with you. But we're looking to see if there is evidence that the Qur'an is inspired by the Holy Spirit. I understand Casey to be saying that the Qur'an and the Holy Bible are all incorporated together in his faith so that when a Word from Holy Scripture is repeated he believes himself in agreement with it as well as keeping the word of the Qur'an. That is akin to the denomination who believe the Holy Spirit not to be a Person of the Godhead and also Jesus not to have been from everlasting, yet saying they believe the Holy Bible. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6 KJV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
CaseyButler Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Quote: Where do you find the Biblical evidence that God promised Ishmael the land of Palestine? Genesis Chapter 17: "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." "And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations." "This (is) my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." "And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you." [KJV-Bible - Genesis 17:7-11] Abraham circumcized Ishmael along with the rest of his house. Circumcision being the token of that covenant, which is a different covenant than the Covenant of Promise to Isaac. Read Galations chapter 4, verses 21 through 31. This is about the 4th time I've posted that reference in Galations. Quote: By the way, not long before Arafat died, he is reported to have stated something to the effect that "there is not enough space on this planet for the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Isaac to live at the same time. One of them must die." That would be impossible. Once again, I urge you to read the Qur'an, allowing God to guide your heart, through the Life of Christ you have the same love available to you that I have. I challenge you to discover from the Qur'an why it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Yassir Arafat to have made such a statement. Casey Quote
CaseyButler Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Quote: Yes, Jesus was speaking metaphorically about His flesh being the Bread of Life. But in the story as written in the Koran, given below, it seems obvious that it is not intended to be understood metaphorically. So it is you opinion that Muhammad was writing literally about Jesus breathing Spirit into a bird He made of clay? I told you, much of the Qur'an is written as the prophets of the Bible wrote. There is metaphor throughout, Words of the Spirit from God. But you don't read the prophets much do you, I'll bet? One of the wonderful things about the Qur'an is Muhammad's understanding of the Psalms as the Key of David, the Key of all Prophecy, which Jesus called the "Key of Knowledge" which scholars refuse to acknowledge or allow others to learn through, assuming one places oneself under the authority of scholars. Scholars just can't control the Holy Spirit, and that unnerves them. So prophecy to them is either past, telling them they're great, or it is unreadable metaphor. There is songwriter named Leonard Cohen, a Jew, who wrote a song about Jesus and the Key of David called "Halalujah". It starts as follows: "Now I've heard there was a secret chord "That David played, and it pleased the Lord "But you don't really care for music, do ya?" Scholars in particular despise the "music" of prophecy, God's Words of the Spirit that can't be nailed down, but appeal to our hearts as individuals. "Woe unto (them that are) wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" [KJV-Bible - Isaiah 5:21] Scholars can't outwit God, His message comes through no matter what they teach or invent. The music of the Psalms defines the "bird" Jesus breathed Spirit into in a Messianic prophecy as follows: "If (it had not been) the LORD who was on our side, now may Israel say;" "If (it had not been) the LORD who was on our side, when men rose up against us:" "Then they had swallowed us up quick, when their wrath was kindled against us:" "Then the waters had overwhelmed us, the stream had gone over our soul:" "Then the proud waters had gone over our soul." "Blessed (be) the LORD, who hath not given us (as) a prey to their teeth." "Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped." "Our help (is) in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth." [KJV-Bible - Psalms 124:1-8] Jesus freed us from the snare of the Pharisees, scholars, and theologians of religion, the "letter" of the Law and prophecy. Those are ensnared reading God's Words of Spirit as literal. Pardon my joy, but you have hit on one the marvels God has given us in the Qur'an to understand that He is there... Consider the following verses: "And remember David and Solomon, when they gave judgment in the matter of the field into which the sheep of certain people had strayed by night: We did witness their judgment." "To Solomon We inspired the (right) understanding of the matter: To each (of them) We gave Judgment and Knowledge; it was Our power that made the hills and the birds celebrate Our praises, with David: It was We Who did (all these things)." "It was We Who taught him the making of coats of mail for your benefit, to guard you from each other's violence: Will you then be grateful?" "(It was Our power that made) the violent (unruly) wind flow (tamely) for Solomon, to his order, to the land which We had blessed: For We do know all things." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 21:78-81] Another: "And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O you people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: This is indeed Grace manifest (from God.)"" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 27:16] And another: "We bestowed Grace aforetime on David from ourselves: "O you Mountains! Sing you back the Praises of God with him! And you birds (also)! And We made the iron soft for him;" "(Commanding), "Make you coats of mail, balancing well the rings of chain armor, and work you righteousness; for be sure I see (clearly) all that you do."" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 34:10-11] And another, direct reference to the Words of God from David: "O David! We did indeed make you a vicegerent on earth: So judge you between men in truth (and justice): Nor follow you the lusts (of your heart), for they will mislead you from the Path of God. For those who wander astray from the Path of God, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 38:26] And... "Have patience at what they say, and remember our servant David, the man of strength: For he ever turned (to God)." "It was We that made the hills declare, in unison with him, Our Praises, at eventide and at break of day," "And the birds gathered (in assemblies): All with him did turn (to God)." "We strengthened his kingdom, and gave him wisdom and sound judgment in speech and decision." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 38:17-20] And you think that "bird" Jesus breathed life into is literal? What about: "Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken (it), I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed (it), I will also do it." "Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that (are) far from righteousness:" "I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory." [KJV-Bible - Isaiah 46:11-13] Oh yes, Muhammad and Islam are in the Bible, throughout prophecy, in large measure. Listen to our God: "Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew (their) strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment." "Who raised up the righteous (man) from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made (him) rule over kings? he gave (them) as the dust to his sword, (and) as driven stubble to his bow." "He pursued them, (and) passed safely; (even) by the way (that) he had not gone with his feet." "Who hath wrought and done (it), calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I (am) he." "The isles saw (it), and feared; the ends of the earth were afraid, drew near, and came." "They helped every one his neighbour; and (every one) said to his brother, Be of good courage." "So the carpenter encouraged the goldsmith, (and) he that smootheth (with) the hammer him that smote the anvil, saying, It (is) ready for the sodering: and he fastened it with nails, (that) it should not be moved." "But thou, Israel, (art) my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend." "(Thou) whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou (art) my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away." [KJV-Bible - Isaiah 41:1-9] Like Muhammad wrote, Islam is righteous indeed, but the "Roman Empire" will be victorious in the end. Casey Quote
CaseyButler Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Did Moses actually write Exodus himself, or did he dictate it to scribes, as Paul is known to have done? How can we know how old the most ancient text of the Qur'an is, out of curiosity? Quote
CaseyButler Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Quote: If the Koran was truly inspired by the same God who inspired the Bible, why wouldn't it teach the same thing about Christ's relationship to the Father as the Bible did? Why didn't the Koran agree with the rest of Holy Scripture on that important point-- who Christ is and what He came to earth for? The Qur'an teaches exactly the same thing about Christ's relationship to the Father that the Bible does. Again, for the umteenth time, the Qur'an includes the Bible - Old and New Testaments. Quote: Does the Qur'an teach or mention that Jesus never sinned? The Qur'an teaches everything that the Bible teaches, because the Qur'an includes the Bible. Quote: Quote: ... We have nothing to fear from the Qur'an, again and again God tells the world in the Qur'an that the Qur'an is the Word of God for Arabic Speaking Peoples only, and nobody else. Do you have a reference for that? If you have read the Qur'an, why do you keep asking me for references? Why don't you know this stuff yourself? Is this the way it is with the Bible and you too? You claim you read it but you go to church to find out what it's about, to find references? "And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 46:12] "We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that you may be able to understand (and learn wisdom). And verily, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high (in dignity), full of wisdom." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 43:3-4] "Thus have We sent by inspiration to you an Arabic Qur'an: That you may warn the Mother of Cities and all around her. And warn (them) of the Day of Assembly, of which there is no doubt: (When) some will be in the Garden, and some in the Blazing Fire." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 42:7] "Nothing is said to you that was not said to the apostles before you: That your lord has at his Command (all) forgiveness as well as a most Grievous Penalty. Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger) an Arab?" Say: "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are, (as it were,) being called from a place far distant!"" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 41:43-44] "A Revelation from (God), Most Gracious, Most Merciful; A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail; a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand; Giving good news and admonition: Yet most of them turn away, and so they hear not." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 41:2-4] "We have put forth for men, in this Qur'an, every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition. (It is) a Qur'an in Arabic, without any crookedness (therein): In order that they may guard against Evil." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 39:27-28] "And verily your Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful. Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds: With it came down the Spirit of Faith and Truth, To your heart and mind, that you may admonish. In the perspicuous Arabic tongue. Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples. Is it not a Sign to them that the Learned of the Children of Israel knew it (as true)? Had We revealed it to any of the non-arabs, And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it." [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 26:191-199] There are many more. Quote: Could you please point to a particular part of the Koran that you are sure could not have been created by a human being working alone? Sorry? What do you mean, because he was working with God or because he was working with Satan or because he was working with other people somehow? Quote
CaseyButler Posted December 7, 2007 Posted December 7, 2007 Quote: "Yes, I understand. I wouldn't study how Muslims believe today in order to try and understand the Koran. For that, I would only study the text itself, but I know it would be necessary to study it in many different translations because a single translation is apt to give you many wrong ideas. I've read two different translations so far, I'd suggest one of yours be the Yusef Ali translation modernized to update the archaic English of his first translation. By most accounts, it relates the Arabic most accurately Spiritual-wise. But again, God's Words of the Spirit transcend translations in all of inspired scripture, don't they. I'm going to wait until you've read the text. You're not hearing me, John, and the racist ideas I'm hearing you quote indicate our discussion will be fruitless for the time being, until you have read the Qur'an with God as your Guide, should you choose to. If you then tell me God showed you the Qur'an is not from Him we can agree to disagree... I'm getting uncomfortable with you always implying that I'm a liar in my witness for God or somehow misled by the devil here. Meanwhile I'm stating that God has guided me and taught me and shown me that the Qur'an is from Him, and I am another witness from Jesus Christ to that fact, and I witness His love therein, and confirmation of His plan which embraces all of the earth whom Jesus Christ died for. I stand as a witness, Father, before You. Just read these messages. Muslims would kill me and Christians would like to. Jesus is right, Jesus is right! You see, You are my Everything indeed. Thank you for Life, Thank you for your Saints, Thank you for their Light that led me to You. Casey Quote
Moderators John317 Posted December 7, 2007 Moderators Posted December 7, 2007 Quote: Your statements here are all conclusions. But we need to examine the evidence in the Koran and compare it with the Bible before we can draw such conclusions. The Bible is included in the Qur'an. The Bible is certainly referred to in the Qur'an, and the Qur'an claims to be inspired by the same God who inspired the Qur'an. That is a claim, a conclusion. It's important to look at the evidence behind that claim to see if it's true. The Bible itself tells us the way to test if a prophet is true or not. It says that if a prophet is inspired by God, he/she will agree with the previous prophets of God. True prophets and apostles of God don't disagree among themselves. The same claim is made for the Book of Mormon. It includes dozens of chapters copied from the King James Version of the prophets, and many more references to the Bible. But that fact alone does not prove that the Book of Mormon is of God or that the rest of it is true. The question is, does it agree with the Bible? I don't believe it does. For instance, in the Book of Mormon, God is portrayed as killing hundreds of thousands of people on the American continent because of Jesus' death in Jerusalem. Does that sound like the God of the Bible-- to kill people because of Christ's crucifixion? That is what I mean by testing to see if something agrees with the Bible. Wouldn't agree that this is Biblical way of testing the prophets to see if they really speak for God? Isn't it one of the tests of the prophets that the Bible itself tells us to apply? Regards. "John 3:17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 7, 2007 Moderators Posted December 7, 2007 Quote: Does the Qur'an teach that Jesus and the Father are in the hearts of Muslims everywhere? If so, please give the reference. There are many references in the Qur'an that teach that Jesus and the Father are in the hearts of Muslims everywhere. Here's an example: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, (art) in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." [KJV-Bible - John 17:20-21] Casey I thought you were going to quote the Qur'an. Of course that is in the Gospel of John. But where is that reference in the Qur'an? Where does the Qur'an teach the same thing? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 7, 2007 Moderators Posted December 7, 2007 Quote: True. Why don't they read it? We can discuss this as we go along. I think the Qur'an itself contains the reasons that Muslims don't read the Bible. You are certainly right that most Christians don't study the Bible as they should. But millions of Christians do read and study their Bibles on a daily basis. What I am asking is, why don't we see Muslims doing the same thing, since the Qur'an tells them the Bible is God's inspired word and that they should believe it? Is it because at the same time that it says the Bible is God's Word, it also says the Bible has been so corrupted that only the Qur'an contains the truth? In other words, don't Muslims believe that the only way to know what the Bible really teaches is by studying the more accurate Qur'an? Do you accept this understanding as true? Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted December 7, 2007 Moderators Posted December 7, 2007 ...God's way is simple. He just put the Bible in the Qur'an. The whole thing. Here is an example of God's opinion of cherry-picking verses and sermonizing on the Bible. It comes from the Qur'an: "There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is not part of the Book; and they say, "That is from God.", but it is not from God, it is they who tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it! "It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people: "Be you my worshippers rather than God's.": On the contrary (He would say) "Be you worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all: For you have taught the Book and you have studied it earnestly." Where do you believe the Bible does this? What is this in reference to? Quote: "Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! Would he bid you to unbelief after you have bowed your will (To God in Islam [meaning Submission])?" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 3:78-80] We agree that people misquote the Bible and use it wrongly. However, let's talk a little about the Bible itself. In your judgment, is the Bible as it stands today God's inspired word and does it contain the true gospel? Can we depend on the Bible to teach us the truth about salvation and God? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.