Christian leaders ask Muslims for forgiveness

[John317]

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Surah VII. 157 (The Heights) says that the "the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospels..."

This is somewhat similar to Surah LXI.6 [The Ranks] where it says that Jesus "brought good tidings of a messenger who would come after him, whose name is the Praised One," i.e. Muhammad.

Where do we find Mohammad described in the Torah and the Gospels?

The Words of the Bible and the Qur'an are Spiritual, as Jesus taught us.

Why wasn't Jesus named Immanuel? Or was He? Immanuel means "God with us", and Jesus' name means "Savior". So isn't Jesus' name Spiritually "Immanual", because God is our only Savior and through Jesus He lives with us?

As I have already said, Muhammad is the Good Samaritan, whose name is "much praised", and he was prophesied by Jesus in the parable of the same name.

As such, Muhammad is described in the Torah - he is specifically prophesied of in Isaiah as I've alteady posted, as the "righteous man from the east" whom God raised to teach His righteousness to Arabia.

Reiterated in Isaiah chapter 46 as:

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken (it), I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed (it), I will also do it.

"Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that (are) far from righteousness:

"I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory." [KJV-Bible - Isaiah 46:11-13]

The context, as shown by Isaiah 45: 1, is the Persian leader, Cyrus, whom God used to punish Babylon and give freedom to Israel. I don't know of a single Bible commentary that does not say Is. 46: 11 refers to Cyrus. (Compare Is. 41: 1-16; 44: 28). They have good reason to do so because the Bible itself named Cyrus before his birth.

Here's some information about Cyrus:

(c. 590 BC or 576 — August 530 BC), also known as Cyrus II of Persia and Cyrus the Elder,[3] was the founder of the Persian Empire under the Achaemenid dynasty. As leader of the Persian people in Anshan, he conquered the Medes and unified the two separate Iranian kingdoms; as the king of Persia, he reigned over the new empire from 550 BC until his death. The empire expanded under his rule, eventually conquering most of Southwest Asia and much of Central Asia, from Egypt and the Hellespont in the west to the Indus River in the east, to create the largest state the world had yet seen.[4]

During his twenty-nine year reign, Cyrus fought against some of the greatest states of its time, including the Median Empire, the Lydian Empire, and the Neo-Babylonian Empire. Cyrus did not venture into Egypt, as he himself died in battle, fighting the Massagetae along the Syr Darya in August 530 BC. [5] He was succeeded by his son, Cambyses II, who managed to conquer Egypt during his short rule.

Beyond his nation, Cyrus left a lasting legacy on religion,[citation needed] politics, and military strategy, as well as on both Eastern and Western civilization.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Thank you for updating me with the modern translations.

Then you must know... Please tell me, is Mary the Mother of God, and is God the Father of God?

Will Adventists suffer purgatory as described by Jesus in His parable of Abraham and Lazarus, because we do not respect God's Wife and Mother?

Casey

No. Mary is not the mother of God. The Bible doesn't call Mary the "Mother of God." As we've discussed before, saying Jesus is the Son of God does not mean God had sex. When we say Jesus was the Lamb of God, we don't imply that Jesus had wool and four legs, etc.

Regards,

"John 7: 17"

[John317]

...But you can't tell me if Mary is the Mother of God, or if God is the Father of God or not, and that's a problem.

1) Mary is not the Mother of God.

2) God the Son has a Father. Jesus Christ is called God and so is the Father God. That doesn't mean they are Father and Son in every sense of the word. Just like Jesus is not the Lamb of God in every sense of that word. We have to be willing to let the Bible speak for itself, and not force it into saying things that it is not saying. For instance there is no reason to believe that it is saying God had sex or that God has a Mother named Mary. Mary was the mother of the human Jesus of Nazareth. You can read about this in Luke 1-2.

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The translation of "God and Savior Jesus Christ" is nothing to do with new knowledge of Greek, it is everything to do with adapting the Bible to the Roman theology of the Trinity.

It has to do with Greek grammar and translating the Koine Greek correctly. The Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity. We can study what the Bible teaches on this point. Titus 2: 13 and 2 Peter 1: 1 are not essential. There are many more verses that teach the same thing. For instance, please look at 1 Cor. 10: 9 in the King James Version. It says that the children of Israel "tempted Christ" in the wilderness back in 1400 BC and were therefore destroyed by snakes. It's important to notice that the oldest manuscript [P46, dated 200 AD) containing this verse reads "Xristos" and not "kurios," or Lord. So both the majority of Greek manuscripts as well as the oldest supports the reading of the KJV here. Compare 1 Cor. 10: 4.

Again, look at John 1: 1, which says that the Word (i.e., Christ) was with God the Father and that the Word Himself was God. It goes on to say Christ was in the beginning and that all things were made through Him, etc. Verse 10 repeats this. Hebrews 1: 2,3, and 10 definitely say that the Son was the One who made the world. 1 John 1: 1-2 also says Jesus was from the beginning and that He was "that eternal life which was with the Father."

Turn to 1 Tim. 3: 16 in the King James Version. It says, "God was manifested in the flesh." This is saying the same thing as John 1: 14, that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..." By the way, practically all of the ancient Greek manuscripts of 1 Tim. 3: 16 read, "God was manifested." A handful of manuscripts read, "He" or "Who".

The prophecies of Micah 5: 2 and Isaiah 9:6 say that Jesus' name will be "Mighty God," and that the ruler to be born in Bethlehem will be One "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Obviously, based on this and on many texts in the New Testament, Jesus did not have his first existence on this earth but existed in heaven before he was born as a baby in Bethlehem. Jesus himself says this in John 17: 5, 24.

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Do you have a shrine to the Mother of God in your house.. If not, why are you risking the wrath of both God and the Lamb in not honoring His "Wife" and "Mother"?

No, no shrine. Because the Bible does not teach that God wants us to honor Mary in any way. On the other hand, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was and is the God who created the world. See, for instance, Col 2: 16, 17, where it says of Jesus Christ, that "by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on the earth," and that "He [Christ] is before all things, and in him all things consist." That means Christ existed before all things. It cannot mean anything else.

There are many more verses that teach the same thing.

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The sixth commandment is "Thou shalt not kill", yet in modern translations the commandment is rendered "Thou shalt not murder".

The Hebrew word there is actually murder, not kill. It is Strongs # 7523. There are about 6 different words in Hebrew that are translated as "kill" in the King James Version. There is a difference between killing and murdering. For instance, police may kill someone but that is not the same as murder. The same with soldiers. The same with self-defense. We don't say a man defending his family against a rapist murdered the rapist. We say he killed him. So God's law does not prohibit all taking of human life. After all, the Bible recognizes the right to self-defense and also recognizes the difference between involuntary manslaughter and murder.

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This "Christian" scholars have done to justify and authorize government killing in retribution for crimes and during war.

But the commandments were given to bring PEACE to the earth. War does not bring peace, nor does killing criminals bring peace.

Indeed the practice of killing human beings at all guarantees that the innocent will die and more killing will result.

Study the use of the Hebrew word "ratsach" which is translated as "kill" in some translations and "murder" others.

But even when the KJV translates it as "Thou shalt not kill," everyone recognizes that it means murder. Otherwise, God is commanding people not do something one minute and the next he is commanding people to disobey His own commandments.

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What does a little study tell you, John... Does ratsach mean thou shalt not kill or thou shalt not murder?

When people took the lives of other people in obedience to God, were they committing murder? If what you say here is true, then all taking of human life is "murder," even when people were obeying God or when they were defending themselves. It would mean there was no such thing as manslaughter, for instance.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

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Do you say these things when you are with Muslims?

Because I would be interested to know how they react to those teachings.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Are you aware that the Adventist Church did not accept the "Trinity" doctrine until it was threatened with being defined as cult in the 1950's?

The SDA church accepted the Trinity doctrine by the 1920s. Ellen White's book, Desire of Ages, was a strong influence in its acceptance. She wrote that Jesus was known under the name of Jehovah in the Old Testament. That understanding has Bible support. For instance, see 1 Cor. 10: 9, where it says it was Christ whom the children of Israel really tempted in the wilderness.

Even those SDAs who opposed the Trinity doctrine believed that Jesus Christ existed in heaven before coming to earth and that He created the world. They just believed that God the Father created Christ countless millions of years before.

See the following link to scholarly articles about the history of the Trinity doctrine in the SDA church: http://www.atsjats.org/publication.php?pub_id=242&journal=1&cmd=view&hash=

Here is what was published on the Deity of Christ in our very widely read and popular book, Bible Readings, in 1914:

1. HOW has the Father shown that His Son is one person of the Godhead?

"But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Thy kingdom." Heb. 1:8.

2. In what other scripture is the same truth taught?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1.

3. In what way did Christ refer to the eternity of His being?

"And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was." John 17:5. "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2. See margin; and Matt. 2:6; John 8:58; Ex. 3:13,14.

4. How was Christ begotten in the flesh?

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1:35.

5. What scripture states that the Son of God was God manifested in the flesh?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:1,14.

6. What does Christ say is His relation to the Father?

"I and My Father are one." John 10:30.

7. How was He manifested on earth as a Saviour?

"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." Luke 2:11.

8. Why was it necessary that He should be born thus, and partake of human nature?

"Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." Heb. 2:17.

9. How was He recognized by the Father while on earth?

"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matt. 3:17.

10. What shows that Christ sustains the same relation to the angels as does the Father?

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works." Matt. 16:27. See Matt. 24:31.

11. How did Christ assert an equal proprietorship with His Father in the kingdom?

"The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity ." Matt. 13:41.

12. To whom do the elect equally belong?

"And shall not God avenge His own elect, which cry day and night unto Him, though He bear long with them?" Luke 18:7. "And He [the Son of man] shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matt. 24:31.

13. Who are equally joined in bestowing the final rewards?

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him [God, the Father]: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." Heb. 11:6. "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works." Matt. 16:27.

NOTE.-In the texts (Matt. 16:27; 13:41; 24:31) in which Christ refers to the angels as "His angels" and to the kingdom as "His kingdom" and to the elect as "His elect," He refers to Himself as "the Son of man." It thus appears that while He was on earth as a man, He recognized His essential deity and His equality with His Father in heaven.

14. What fulness dwells in Christ?

"For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Col. 2:9.

15. What does God (Jehovah) declare Himself to be?

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and His Redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God." Isa. 44:6.

16. In what scripture does Christ adopt the same expression?

"And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Rev. 22:12,13.

17. Having such a wonderful Saviour, what are we exhorted to do?

"Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb. 4:14,15.

Before the heavens were spread abroad,

From everlasting was the Word;

With God He was, the Word was God,

And must divinely be adored.

Ere sin was born, or Satan fell,

He led the host of morning stars;

His generation who can tell,

Or count the number of His years?

But lo! He leaves those heavenly forms;

The Word descends and dwells in clay,

That He may converse hold with worms,

Dressed in such feeble flesh as they.

ISAAC WATTS.

Regards,

"John 3:17"

[John317]

God through Muhammad teaches adherence to the Ten Commandments in the Qur'an.

Muhammad kept the Sabbath and the Qur'an contains several admonitions to the People of the Book for corrupting it.

I was looking for that kind of reference, showing that Muhammad kept the Sabbath and that the Qur'an teaches the Sabbath was made for everyone on earth, but I cannot find such references. Can you point out one or two that clearly make the case for the Sabbath? I know it mentions it but I believe it says the Sabbath "was only appointed for" for a certain group, such as Jews, and not for all peoples.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

Regards

[John317]

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How do Muslims respond to you when you try to persuade them to study the Bible about Jesus?

Are you saying you have no more responsibility than Muslims do to understand God through Jesus?

No, I am simply asking a straightforward question about how Muslims respond to your understanding of the Bible and the Koran being a single book. I'd like to know.

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Do you tell them that the Bible and the Qur'an are all one book?

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Why wouldn't I?

If you've read the Qur'an, shouldn't you be telling them too?

So apparently you do tell them that it's one book.

Could you tell me some of your experiences of when you have done that?

I think I should only do that if I was convinced that the Bible and the Qur'an are all one book. So far I see the Qur'an contradicting the Bible. For instance, on the nature and identity of Christ. Also on the way a person is saved.

Could you tell me how the Qur'an teaches a man is saved? Do you believe that by studying the Qur'an a person can learn the gospel and be saved? What chapters or verses in particular in the Qur'an would you point a person to in order to convey the gospel?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

OK, I'll read it online. I saw it just now and Bookmarked it. Thanks. As I read, I'd like to be able to ask you questions from time to time. Actually, I will almost certainly talk to my Muslim friends about what I'm reading too. They read in the original Arabic. I'd be interested in how they understand certain passages and teachings.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Why are you asking me these questions instead of asking God?

God answered them for me, He will answer them for you.

I'm interested in what you think. You say you believe that the Qur'an and the Bible are really one book and that both are inspired by the same God, so I am trying to find out how you harmonize what I see as contradictions and discrepancies. I ask you this because you say that you have already harmonized both books. I would like to know how you do that. Perhaps you have seen something I have not seen that helps you to see perfect harmony between the Qur'an and the Bible.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Thank you for updating me with the modern translations.

Had you read 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2: 13 in any modern translation, such as the NIV, NASV, NKJV before?

[CaseyButler]

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The context, as shown by Isaiah 45: 1, is the Persian leader, Cyrus, whom God used to punish Babylon and give freedom to Israel. I don't know of a single Bible commentary that does not say Is. 46: 11 refers to Cyrus. (Compare Is. 41: 1-16; 44: 28). They have good reason to do so because the Bible itself named Cyrus before his birth.

No, it's not about Cyrus, it's about Muhammad and Islam. God did not promise to make the seed of Cyrus a great nation, but He did promise to make the seed of Ishmael a great nation.

Cyrus is a blip on history's radar by comparison.

There are now 1.3 billion Muslims and Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth.

It is through prophecy that God informs us that He has known the end of us from the very beginning.

No Bible commentator could possibly know what God is saying to the prophets until their prophecy comes to pass, yet all Bible commentators boldly invalidate prophecy regarding Spiritual entities and events when they interpret prophecy as being fulfilled based on what they dig out of historical trivia.

Cyrus is not the Good Samaritan Jesus prophesied of...

Names, as you know, are interchangable in prophecy. The Messiah is called by various names from Zarubabel to David to Immanuel in the prophets.

Still, there is nothing wrong with asking Bible commentators rather than God to interpret prophecy for us. They are usually most willing to help - for the price of their books.

[CaseyButler]

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No. Mary is not the mother of God. The Bible doesn't call Mary the "Mother of God." As we've discussed before, saying Jesus is the Son of God does not mean God had sex. When we say Jesus was the Lamb of God, we don't imply that Jesus had wool and four legs, etc.

Absolutley.

So you acknowledge that Jesus being the "Son of God" is a metaphorical title comparable with the metaphorical title the "Lamb of God".

Language is still language. To say that Jesus is the literal Son of God, thus He is God, requires that Mary be God's Mother. If God did not have sex with Mary, and if Mary is not the Mother of God, then Jesus is not the literal Son of God.

The words "Son of God" are metaphorical, as are the words "Son of man".

That is all God points out through Muhammad when He says He did not "beget" a son, and when He states unequivacably both in the Bible and the Qur'an that there is only one God and one Savior, Him.

But metaphorically, Jesus is God's Son, One with God because He submitted Himself to God's Law and lived His Love for the world in Truth in order to show all of us God's True Character.

The entire Trinity doctrine is traceable to the Council of Nicaea of the Roman Empire "Church". It is thoroughly documented as the creation of what we now know to be an evil empire bent on destroying True Christianity, by withholding the Gospels from laity and persecuting true Christians, modifying the entire religion to fit pagan traditions and rites.

They changed the Sabbath to Sunday as well.

This is the "Christianity" Muhammad spoke to.

Not Seventh-Day Adventists, who are basically, at least historically, in tune with the Biblical teachings of the Qur'an already.

Just so we remember and are on the same page...

[CaseyButler]

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1) Mary is not the Mother of God.

2) God the Son has a Father. Jesus Christ is called God and so is the Father God. That doesn't mean they are Father and Son in every sense of the word. Just like Jesus is not the Lamb of God in every sense of that word.

Then Jesus can only be God's Son in a metaphorical way of speaking.

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We have to be willing to let the Bible speak for itself, and not force it into saying things that it is not saying.

The Bible is full of metaphor - Spiritual Words as Jesus called them.

Psalms, Parables, Similes, Allegory, and Poetry.

Indeed God intends that we not "force it into saying things that it is not saying", rather he wants us to come to Him, and Him alone to learn its meanings.

Not to scholars, theologians, or "commentators", but to God Himself.

And when we do, He answers as Jesus promised He will.

I am a witness of His promise being kept, even for lowly sinners.

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For instance there is no reason to believe that it is saying God had sex or that God has a Mother named Mary. Mary was the mother of the human Jesus of Nazareth.

Are you saying the "human Jesus of Nazareth" is not God?

That's what the Qur'an says too.

One of the obvious failures of the Trinity doctrine is that nobody at all can understand it, except, they claim, God Himself.

This makes Jesus out to be a liar when He promises that God, through Him, will tell us all things we ask Him to.

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You can read about this in Luke 1-2.

Really. I don't read what you read there for some reason.

Is this what God tells you, that the human Jesus is not His Son while the God Jesus is His Son?

If you tell me God showed it to you, I'll consider it, but if it is only the invention of another commentator or theologian, or another patch of mortar on the wall built by Rome at Nicaea, who is in charge of them?

I guess the bottom line is, have you gone to God for confirmation of the Trinity teachings first adopted at Nicaea, and what was His answer?

I asked Him, and He taught me that the Trinity doctrine is false, and that He told Mrs. White it was false, and that Jesus being One with Him metaphorically - or literally as they attempt to teach it - was a necessary step because scholars and theologians of the past taught God as a Tyrant Killer who breaks His own Law.

It was the best way to put God as He really is into preaching, through Jesus, whose Life is a witness of God.

Jesus could not be portrayed as a Tyrant Killer until recently, since the rise of Islam, as theologians of a Christian Zionist bent have been asked to justify killing Muslims in Jesus' Name.

You are aware of all of this, I'm sure.

Isn't it a little odd that the kind of persecution predicted by our pioneers that Adventists would suffer is actually being practiced on Muslims more and more each day as America polarizes itself in preparation for all out war against Islam?

Yes, that's what we're preparing for because only all out war, the actual wiping out of fundementalist Muslims everywhere, will bring "security" to a society that is more interested it widening its markets, spreading its vices, and getting access to cheap labor than it is adhering to the Ten Commandments or the Sermon on the Mount.

Jesus is coming soon because we are about to turn the Spiritual corner where we justify destroying humanity in order to "save" humanity through the god of forces we have chosen to worship, while using the Names of God and Jesus Christ.

In that god our nation trusts, however, no longer in the God of Jesus.

We Adventists know that Armegeddon is a Spiritual battle, not literal. The Words of God in the Bible and the Qur'an prove and confirm that Armegeddon is taking place around us today, as people choose one side or the other to be on... as they choose the side of God or mammon.

Will we be goats when Jesus comes, or will we be sheep...

Or, as it says in the Qur'an, will we be companions of the left hand, or companions of the Right Hand.

The Trinity doctrine actually is in the Bible, in the book of Revelation.

After the "Kings of the East" make their appearance, of which the Qur'an is one, we read:

"And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs (come) out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, (which) go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." [KJV-Bible - Revelation 16:12-14]

You're right, John. Mary is not the Mother and/or Wife of God. Language still is the tool we must use for communication, and language proves Mary is not.

Jesus is the metaphorical Son of God, not the literal, and God has caught the "wise" in His snare by their own doings.

That the Qur'an is inspired is the most wonderful news we could have today, be of good cheer! :-)

Casey

[John317]

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The context, as shown by Isaiah 45: 1, is the Persian leader, Cyrus, whom God used to punish Babylon and give freedom to Israel. I don't know of a single Bible commentary that does not say Is. 46: 11 refers to Cyrus. (Compare Is. 41: 1-16; 44: 28). They have good reason to do so because the Bible itself named Cyrus before his birth.

No, it's not about Cyrus, it's about Muhammad and Islam. God did not promise to make the seed of Cyrus a great nation, but He did promise to make the seed of Ishmael a great nation.

Cyrus is a blip on history's radar by comparison.

Isaiah 44: 28 calls Cyrus, God's "shepherd" who will "perform all of God's pleasure." Compare that to Isaiah 46: 11, which refers to "the man who executes My counsel." Isaiah 45: 1 calls Cyrus, God's "anointed" and His "right-hand." Isaiah 45:13 says God has "raised him up in righteousness" and predicts that Cyrus will "let my exiles go free." That is what Cyrus did in 538 BC, and his proclamation freeing the Jews is found in Ezra 1.

Do you know if it is a commonly held belief by Muslim scholars and writers that Isaiah 46 predicts the coming of Muhammad? Also do they teach that Muhammad was predicted in Christ's parable of the Good Samaritan? Have you read these things in Muslim commentaries or in their books?

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

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Cyrus is not the Good Samaritan Jesus prophesied of...

The Good Samaritan is a parable, of course. What textual evidence is there that we should take this parable as a prophecy?

Cyrus was a type of Christ, too. Cyrus is called a messiah, or anointed one. The sacrifices were also types of the Messiah. Those things pointed forward to the time when the Messiah would come. When people sacrificed animals with understanding, they were demonstrating their faith in the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

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No. Mary is not the mother of God. The Bible doesn't call Mary the "Mother of God." As we've discussed before, saying Jesus is the Son of God does not mean God had sex. When we say Jesus was the Lamb of God, we don't imply that Jesus had wool and four legs, etc.

Absolutley.

So you acknowledge that Jesus being the "Son of God" is a metaphorical title comparable with the metaphorical title the "Lamb of God".

Language is still language. To say that Jesus is the literal Son of God, thus He is God, requires that Mary be God's Mother. If God did not have sex with Mary, and if Mary is not the Mother of God, then Jesus is not the literal Son of God.

The words "Son of God" are metaphorical, as are the words "Son of man".

What's important is what the Bible means when it calls Jesus Christ the Son of God, the Lamb of God, or the Son of Man. Son of man simply means son of Adam. Jesus was literally a son or descendant of Adam. This was one of Christ's favorite titles for himself because he was identifying Himself with the human race, with us. But it means much more than that in the case of Christ. It is brought out in passages such as Romans 5: 12-21, where it talks about Christ's becoming the new head of humanity. Through Christ we regain everything that was lost through Adam's fall (Rom. 5: 18, 19).

The question I have is, does the Qur'an itself teach those things about Christ that are included in the title, "Son of God" and "Son of man." Perhaps it does not use those words, but are the Biblical concepts in regard to the identity of the Messiah part of the Qur'an? Or does the Qur'an contradict what the Bible, and particularly the NT, is saying about the Messiah? For instance, the Bible plainly teaches that the Messiah, Jesus Christ, was not a mere human. His life did not begin with His birth in Bethlehem. Jesus Himself says this in John 17: 5, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world began."

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That is all God points out through Muhammad when He says He did not "beget" a son, and when He states unequivacably both in the Bible and the Qur'an that there is only one God and one Savior, Him.

Jesus Christ is also called in many passages of the Bible, "the Savior," as in John 4: 42: "This is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world." Also, 2 Timothy 1: 10 refers to "our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." Titus 1: 4 calls Jesus, "the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior."

Thomas called Jesus Christ, "My Lord and my God," and Romans 9: 5 calls Christ "the eternally blessed God" (NKJV; NIV; NASB).

2 Thess. 1: 12 is a reference to Jesus as "our God and Lord Jesus Christ." (There is no definite article preceding the second substantive, which means the Lord Jesus Christ is the same person as described by the first substantive, God.)

Hebrews 1: 8 (KJV) says, "To the Son, He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever," showing that God the Father called the Son "God".

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

We are on the same page in many ways. There is no question that of all Christians, the Seventh-day Adventists teachings are closest to many of the teachings of the Qur'an.

As far as the Trinity doctrine goes, it is true that there were various church councils set up to deal with issues related to the nature of the Godhead and of the nature of Christ. It is also true that attempts were made to change the Sabbath to Sunday.

There is no Bible evidence that Christ ever intended for the weekly Sabbath to be changed. It remains the same as it has been since creation.

But where we have disagreement on the Trinity, it is because the Bible clearly supports the deity of Jesus Christ and the personality of the Holy Spirit. My belief in the Trinity has nothing to do with church councils but is based on the Bible itself. You have John 1 for teaching that Jesus Christ is God, and you have such verses as Acts 5: 3,4, Acts 15: 28, and Matt. 28: 19 as the basis for teaching that the Holy Spirit is God.

It must be remembered that not everything the councils taught is error. They did teach some things that are true. For instance, they taught that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Therefore, just because something was taught by the church councils does not mean it is heresy. If the Bible itself plainly teaches something, then it is true irrespective of the decisions of popes or church councils.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

...I asked Him, and He taught me that the Trinity doctrine is false, and that He told Mrs. White it was false...

I've never heard this before. Perhaps you are defining Trinity in a particular way. But I could show you many quotes from Ellen White where she clearly supported the concept of the Trinity. For instance, she plainly says that the Holy Spirit is not a mere influence or impersonal force or power. She says the Holy Spirit is a person. She also says that Jesus Christ was called Jehovah in the Old Testament and that it was Jesus Christ who gave the law at Sinai. This last is in the book Patriarchs and Prophets, among others.

Could you please provide references for support of the belief that God told Mrs. White the Trinity doctrine was false?

Regards,

"John 3:17"

[LifeHiscost]

our current view of God as only the God of us will not sustain understanding prophecy.

I'm really not sure to whom you're referring.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.John 10:1 NASB

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. John 10:7

KJV

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16 KJV

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh" Joel 2:28 KJV

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Mark 16:15 KJV

"One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike [sacred]. Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind."

Romans 14:5 AMP

The fact that God wishes us to be convinced ourselves, without undue influence by others, does not mean whatever convinces us is true. However there are a few earmarks that make it easier to tell whether our conclusions are true.

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

Luke 11:13 KJV

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13 KJV

"But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,

Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law that can bring a charge]." Gal 5:22,23 AMP brackets parenthesis theirs LHC

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God" John 7:17 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

The Good Shepherd, hirelings, thieves, and wolves. There is no other category for preachers.

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14 KJV

"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Matthew 5:10-12 KJV

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Matthew 10:22 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Thank you for updating me with the modern translations.

Then you must know... Please tell me, is Mary the Mother of God, and is God the Father of God?

Will Adventists suffer purgatory as described by Jesus in His parable of Abraham and Lazarus, because we do not respect God's Wife and Mother?

Casey

I once worked for an organization which, when asked about a particular process, replied the information was given out on a "need to know" basis, inferring I had no need to know.

The first question you asked (the underlined) has never been asked me by God , and I've never seen any reason to acquire that particular bit of knowledge, any more than I need to know the exact process through which the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary.

"And Mary said to the angel, How can this be, since I have no [intimacy with any man as a] husband?

Then the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you [like a shining cloud]; and so the holy (pure, sinless) Thing (Offspring) which shall be born of you will be called the Son of God." Luke 1:34,35 AMP

The second question assumes something contrary to Scriptural truth, a purgatory which reflects a belief insinuated by satan in the garden of Eden, that man would surely not die.

"For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.

For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 NASB

The parable was just that, a parable, meant to reveal truth through events not possible, according to previous instruction by God, in this fallen world.

Regards!

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

The SDA church accepted the Trinity doctrine by the 1920s.

Sigh.

You believe what you're told and I'm okay with that.

But according to our church the "Trinity Doctrine" was not formally adopted until the 1980 statement of "Fundemental Beliefs".

Scholars and thelogians pour over our Prophet's writings to see how they can be modified so that they might find respect with the Beast.

Mrs. White never approved of such Roman Trinitarian nonsense during her lifetime, and she never will.

If the Trinity doctrine had not been merged into our church, our church and its scholars and theologians would be outcasts in the Christian community like the Church of Latter Day Saints...

Called a cult by "Christians".

If we can't talk without revising history and the Holy Spirit's inspiration to Mrs. White as our church does, there is no point to a discussion of the QUR'AN being inspired is there?

I hear you saying you cannot accept that until your church accepts that. I hear you saying that you cannot speak plainly and from the heart about God without risking your reputation and the loss of fellowship with those whom you love and respect.

I understand.

Today our church uses every means possible to stifle what the Holy Spirit reveals to church members through Bible study.

What does God say... To the man or woman with the broken Spirit He will turn, whom God will always prefer to "scholars and theologians" whose living depends on tithe belonging to Him and meant for the poor.

As we heard from Him through Mrs. White, a 14 year-old girl with a disfigured face.

You should know our church will have a hard time accepting the Qur'an because the Qur'an teaches God and God only as the way to Truth.

The Qur'an teaches the works of Jesus towards the poor and indigent, orphans and widows.

It forbids abortion, promising God will provide the sustenance necessary to feed all that He has created.

Etc...

The Qur'an forbids monetary profit from the Word of God.

Even so, with God all things are possible, our church is full of His servants, and it is God's Wonderful Will that our church soon understand and recognize His inspiration of the Qur'an to Muhammad.

Maybe we can talk when that happens, after you read it, about what is in our hearts rather than about what we have to say to keep fellowshipping with relatives and friends within the church.

I'm only sorry I'm not a better communicator.

Casey

[John317]

Quote:

The SDA church accepted the Trinity doctrine by the 1920s.

Sigh.

You believe what you're told and I'm okay with that.

But according to our church the "Trinity Doctrine" was not formally adopted until the 1980 statement of "Fundemental Beliefs".

Scholars and thelogians pour over our Prophet's writings to see how they can be modified so that they might find respect with the Beast.

Mrs. White never approved of such Roman Trinitarian nonsense during her lifetime, and she never will.

Let the evidence speak for itself:

Examine just a few Ellen White statements regarding the Godhead:

A) "The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate-- a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings. 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.' John 1: 1,2. Christ, the Word, the begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father, one in nature, in character, in purpose-- the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God.... The Father wrought by His Son in the creation of all heavenly beings" (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 34.)

"Christ was not only the leader of the Hebrews in the wilderness-- the Angel in whom was the name of Jehovah, and who, veiled in the cloudy pillar, went before the host-- but it was He who gave the law to Israel.... It was Christ that spoke to His people through the prophets" (PP 366).

"Christ and the Father standing side by side upon the mount, with solemn majesty proclaimed the Ten Commandments" (Ev. 616).

"In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived" (DA 530).

C) "The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of the divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Savior. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of the these three great powers-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will cooperate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ." Evangelism, 615.

D) "Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God... He was equal with the God, infinite and omnipotent... He is the eternal, self-existent Son" (Ev. 615)

E) The Holy Spirit has a personality... The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit" (Evangelism 617).

F) We are to cooperate with the three highest powers in heaven-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,-- and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God" (Evangelism, 617).

G) "[Christ] determined to give his representative, the third person of the Godhead." ( 5 SDA BC 1053).

H) "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome the powers of darkness" (SDA BC 1110).

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

The SDA church accepted the Trinity doctrine by the 1920s.

But according to our church the "Trinity Doctrine" was not formally adopted until the 1980 statement of "Fundemental Beliefs".

Here is a statement of Fundamental Beliefs in 1931 regarding the Trinity:

"That the Godhead, or Trinity, consists of the Eternal Father, a personal, spiritual Being, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, infinite in wisdom and love; the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father, through whom all things were created and through whom the salvation of the redeemed hosts will be accomplished; the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, the great regenerating power in the work of redemption. Matt. 28:19.

That Jesus Christ is very God, being of the same nature and essence as the Eternal Father. While retaining His divine nature He took upon Himself the nature of the human family, lived on the earth as a man, exemplified in His life as our Example the principles of righteousness, attested His relationship to God by many mighty miracles, died for our sins on the cross, was raised from the dead, and ascended to the Father where He ever lives to make intercession for us. John 1:1, 14; Heb. 2:9–18; 8:1, 2; 4:14–16; 7:25."

[John317]

Even previous to 1898, Ellen White made clear statements affirming the underived divine nature and eternal pre-existence of Christ. While she never used the term “Trinity” in her published writings, she repeatedly conveyed the concept. A selected chronological collection of her clearer statements are provided.

[1878] “The unworthiness, weakness, and inefficiency of their own efforts in contrast with those of the eternal Son of God, will render them humble, distrustful of self, and will lead them to rely upon Christ for strength and efficiency in their work.”

[1887] “This injunction is from the eternal Son of God.”

[1893] “Jesus said, ‘I and my Father are one.’ The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes.”

[1897] “He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent. . . . He is the eternal, self-existent Son.”

[1900] “Christ is the pre-existent self-existent son of God. . . . In speaking of his pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God.”

[1906] “Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore.”

[1907/1908] “The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight. The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be ‘the express image of His person.’ . . . There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized.”

Regards,

"John 3: 17"