Christian leaders ask Muslims for forgiveness

[CaseyButler]

I've been baptized into the church twice, but I can't be an official Adventist without swearing to give up tobacco, a substance I am addicted to. A thorn in my side from "Satan", if you will.

I am a child of this world, you are a child of light.

Jesus said:

"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

"And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations."

"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much."

"If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true (riches)?"

"And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?"

"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." [KJV-Bible - Luke 16:8-13]

I now serve only one Master. I have been baptized with Fire and the Holy Spirit by Jesus in a lasting baptism and rebirth.

Islam is fascinating, the traditions and customs that are an outgrowth of the Qur'an...

But it's important to remember, trying to learn what the Qur'an is about from studying Islam is like trying to learn what the Bible is about by studying Judaism or Catholicism.

Judaism has the Talmud to explain the Torah, Islam has the Hadith and Sunnah which essentially attempt the same thing.

But God is only in the Qur'an, I think you'll find, and His message is mainly to us today.

I wish you the best in your studies... Work on the king of the north and south! It's a tough riddle, but has a tantalizing end:

"And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

"He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many (countries) shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, (even) Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon." [KJV-Bible - Daniel 11:40-41]

Who is the chief of the children of Ammon who escapes the best efforts of this powerful king of the north?

Ammon was always an enemy to the Children of Israel. Jews are forbidden to give any Ammonite water even to this day.

The Bible tells us everything. We just have to watch.

Casey

[Woody]

Quote:

I've been baptized into the church twice

What church are you referring to?

It is not possible to be baptized into the SDA church. You are baptized into the Body of Christ.

The ONLY way to be an Adventist and belong to the Adventist Church is by a vote of 51% of those members at a particular church that happen to be present that day.

If you want to be an SDA ... just stack the deck with your friends at a small church and you will be "in".

We are ALL addicted to some kind of sin. Your addiction should not preclude you from membership. Many Pastors would not exclude you from membership. Find a good Christ loving Gospel centered church and Pastor. Then you will be in.

[CaseyButler]

The Seventh-Day Adventist Church, of course. :-)

Thank you for the suggestions... And no, it says on the Baptismal certificate that the pastor brought me to sign that I swore I would not use tobacco products.

Jesus taught that we shouldn't swear by God or even Jerusalem.

Think about churches though... The state of Islam in many countries, as compared to what's really in the Qur'an from God, should make us all think about what happens to all religions.

God is the Decider of what souls He will and won't accept.

When we invent churches and doctrines, we act as God in His place, pushing Him aside, judging, casting out, and scattering the people He intends to save.

Causing poverty, oppression, and desperation as people wander around without the Love of God.

Maybe that's the lesson Adam and Eve were sent out of the Garden to learn...

That only God can direct us, love us, and provide for us.

History proves that Religions fail miserably in that task.

Casey

[Woody]

Quote:

Thank you for the suggestions... And no, it says on the Baptismal certificate that the pastor brought me to sign that I swore I would not use tobacco products.

I guess you could have found someone who would have baptized you without a Baptismal Certificate or at least a different one.

But like I said ... Baptism has nothing to do with being accepted into membership of the SDA church.They are totally different although having had a baptism like you have had is needed.But the only way you can be a member is by a vote.

Now that you have been baptized ... any church can accept you without being Baptized again.It is called profession of faith. All it takes is 51%. You do not have to be clean from tobacco. All you have to do is find a church that will love and accept you. Many SDA churches would do this.

Many SDAs are addicted to tobacco. They are not disfellowshipped because of this dreaded sin usually.

Blessings my Friend

[LifeHiscost]

We are ALL addicted to some kind of sin.

While the Word plainly says we are all falling short, therefor we are all sinners and addicted to sin in general, I know of no place in the Word where it says all are addicted to some kind of sin. In one sense of the word sin, since we all succumb to it, we might say we are addicted. Nowhere that I'm aware of does it say every person has some particular isolated sin to which they are addicted. In fact if that were true then the Bible clearly eliminates all from receiving salvation.

"Jesus answered them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, Whoever commits and practices sin is the slave of sin." John 8:34 AMP

"[but] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].

No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God." 1 John 3:8,9 AMP brackets parenthesis their's LHC

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

God is the Decider of what souls He will and won't accept.

[CaseyButler]

God sees me as a true adventist of the seventh-day and the second coming of Jesus Christ, so that's enough for me.

To get the approval of men I'd have to give up my relationship with God in exchange for the un-merciful and judgmental whims of church leaders and scholars.

Church leaders who, if Mrs. White were to suddenly appear before them, would disfellowship her immediately for being too fundementalist.

Smoking is not a sin, and God knew I'd be a smoker before I was born, yet He raised me up anyway and we talk and study together daily!

If it were a sin God would forgive smokers for it as he forgives all of us for doing far far worse to ourselves and others.

He wants us to get this mess over with. :-)

Thank you though. :-)

Casey

[there buster]

I'm just wondering if the Muslims apologized for killing and driving out Christians in the Asia Minor, North Africa, the Balkans, and much of Europe in the years leading up to 732? And to which the Crusades were a response?

Or does the time for apologies only begin after that?

[Woody]

Sounds Good Casey ... You had me worried for awhile. I wasn't quite sure if you were trying to seek after man's stamp of approval on you or not. But I didn't want to offend you if you valued that.

Cheers and God Bless you ...........

[John317]

Differences between the Qur'an and the Bible:

1) Does the Qur'an deny the death of Christ? Doesn't it say Isa [Jesus] did not actually die but only appeared to be killed?

2) As far as I can see, the Qur'an sees no need for atonement. Am I wrong?

3) The Qur'an does not recognize the power of sin.

4) Aren't its teachings in regard to sin and forgiveness quite different from the Bible's?

5) According to the Qur'an, is the human race evil due to the Fall? Is his nature depraved?

6) How does man attain the favor of God? Isn't this accomplished by works based on prophetic teaching?

7) Does the Qur'an teach that morality is a means of salvation or a fruit of salvation?

8) Where is penitence or humility taught in the Qur'an?

9) Does God hate divorce in Qur'an?

10) Doesn't the Qur'an teach absolute despotism in family, civil and religious affairs?

11) Where is the Fatherhood of God in the Qur'an?

12) Where is the brotherhood of man taught in the Qur'an?

13) Does the Qur'an anywhere teach that God "so loved the world"?

14) Is morality in the Qur'an based on love?

15) Isn't submission in Islam a submission to an arbitrary will and not to a God of love?

16) God and man are external to one another. There is no mention made in the Qur'an of God coming to make his abode in the human heart, to live either with us or in us. In the Bible, believers are in Christ and Christ is in the believer, but not so in the Qur'an.

17) Mohammed is a teacher but not a priest.

19) The Qur'an says, "Human nature is weak." The Bible says, Human nature is fallen, sinful, depraved.

20) In the Qur'an Jesus Christ is "only an apostle," not Deity.

21) According to the Qur'an, Jesus Christ [isa] first existed when he was born on this earth.

22) The Sabbath, according to the Qur'an, was not made for all mankind.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[CaseyButler]

Hi John,

It feels like you haven't been reading my previous messages.

Quote:

Differences between the Qur'an and the Bible:

There are no differences.

The Qur'an **includes** the Bible and the revelations from God contained therein. Old Testament and New Testament inclusive.

Much like the New Testament **includes** the Old Testament, and wouldn't make sense without it, the Qur'an would not exist without both the Old and New Testament.

If you wish to prepare a list of questions yourself based on what is actually written in the Qur'an, I'd be glad to discuss them with you.

But the idea behind your first question, that the Qur'an teaches that Jesus didn't die, comes from ignorance of the Bible and people with an agenda of hate to begin with.

I've already posted the relevant verse here.

Agreeing completely with Jesus in the Gospel of John, God in the Qur'an says the Jews did not kill Jesus, not that Jesus did not die.

If you wish to deny the Spiritual validity of God's Words through the Qur'an regarding how Christianity had blamed the Jews in direct disobedience to Christ (our own church still teaches that the Jews "rejected" Jesus when they killed Him)...

Then even literally you must surely agree that it was the Romans who crucified and killed Jesus, and not the Jews.

The Qur'an is from God.

Who am I though. I just follow Him.

I do advise all to read it carefully and don't look for answers from anywhere but from above when you do, which is exactly how Mrs. White taught us to read our Bibles. The answers will come.

There are many racist theories out there from people who don't even understand the Bible... so beware.

But how could one chase a thousand and two chase ten thousand unless...

We will sing the Song of Moses together someday. :-)

God bless..

[John317]

Unfortunately I just saw this a little while before I have to go to work. It's something I have a lot of interest in and so will be glad to talk about this tomorrow. In the meantime, could you please tell me the reference in the Qur'an where it says Jesus Christ died?

While it is true that the Roman governor gave permission for Jesus Christ to be crucified, there can be no denial of the evidence that the Jews are the One who wanted Him killed. Pilate was willing to let Christ go free, but the Jews demanded His death. The Jews are the ones who had him arrested and sent to Pilate in the first place. Without them, there is no evidence the Romans had an interest in killing Him at that time. Pilate himself declared Jesus innocent.

But in actually of course we are all responsible for Christ's death because it was our sins-- mine and yours-- that put Him on the cross and killed him. Jesus really didn't die from the nails. He died from being separated from the Father and from the grief that He felt from bearing all of humanity's sins. He died from a broken heart. If he had died from the cross merely, He would have lived a lot longer. People usually took several days to die from crucifixion. Pilate was surprised to learn that Jesus had died so quickly.

Tomorrow I shall spend more time reading your posts before I post anything myself again. Thanks.

Regards,

"John 3: 16"

[CaseyButler]

Go to God, John, is what I'm saying.

What if I'm wrong? What if I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing?

There is One Shepherd and One only. All of our pastors and authors and scholars and administrators are just hirelings, thieves, or wolves themsleves.

Listen for the Voice that all of His sheep will hear, listen in the Qur'an without fear or racism, and you will hear it.

You are a Servant of God, and He will guide you.

Casey

[John317]

Go to God, John, is what I'm saying.

Got that. Thank you. Talk more tomorrow I hope.

[LifeHiscost]

Then even literally you must surely agree that it was the Romans who crucified and killed Jesus, and not the Jews.

Am I missing something?

"Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be handed over to the chief priests and scribes; and they will sentence Him to death

And deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and whipped and crucified, and He will be raised [to life] on the third day." Matt 20:18,19

"When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them,

saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us."

But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.

"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.

"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

"And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." Acts 5:27-32 NASB

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

All of our pastors and authors and scholars and administrators are just hirelings, thieves, or wolves themsleves.Casey

"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Abide in Me, and I in you." John 15:2-4 NASB

"No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you." John 15:15 NASB

Regards!

[CaseyButler]

Quote:

Am I missing something?

Apparently so:

"No man taketh [my Life] from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." [KJV-Bible - John 10:18]

And:

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." [KJV-Bible - Luke 23:34]

I understood this concept completely when I first heard His Words at like age 10 or so. The Jews are not to blame, according to God and Jesus Christ.

Read Romans chapter 11 to see why.

The majority of Christians down through the centuries have missed it too.

Due to persecution, inquisition, pogroms and even holocaust, the blood of literally millions of Jews is on the hands of historical "Christianity".

It's all in the Bible.

Christianity's witness of Jesus is not correct. Anyone who reads the Gospels knows that.

The Revelation says it best. There's only one woman in John's vision, who starts out as a woman clothed by the Sun who disappears into the wilderness, chased by the dragon.

Further on in chapter 17 this same woman is found by John to be still in the wilderness when an angel leads him to her. But she is now dressed as a harlot after centuries of fornicating with governments of men and corrupting the teachings of God through Jesus Christ in order to have her way.

Her clothing reflects her ongoing bold apostasy and rebelliousness, her constant preaching against the teachings of love and forgiveness and compassion and service to others and good works taught by Jesus, and she is riding the Beast.

But soon she will be given white raiment to wear for her marriage to the Bridegroom. :-)

Christianity is a branch of Judaism. Jews are the natural branch, we're just grafted on.

It's all in the Bible.

Casey

[CaseyButler]

The Good Shepherd, hirelings, thieves, and wolves. There is no other category for preachers.

You might find Ezekiel chapter 34 enlightening on the subject.

But there's only one Good Shepherd worth listening to:

"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."

"But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep."

"The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep."

"I am the good shepherd, and know my (sheep), and am known of mine."

"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, (and) one shepherd."

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again."

"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." [KJV-Bible - John 10:11-18]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

John: Allah means God. God is God. God created Jesus Christ as He created all the universe.

Where does the Bible teach that God created Jesus Christ?

"John 3:17"

The answer to my own question above is that the Bible nowhere says that God created Jesus Christ. In fact, it plainly teaches that Jesus Christ, together with the Father, created and sustains the world. The Scriptural evidence will be given on other posts on this thread.

[John317]

... The Prophet Muhammad was for God and for Jesus and for Christianity and for Judaism and for his people. The Qur'an is from God and for all of us...

When we are prepared to hear it...Casey

Your statements here are all conclusions. But we need to examine the evidence in the Koran and compare it with the Bible before we can draw such conclusions.

[John317]

Jesus and my Father are in my heart, and we sup together daily. I stand before them as a witness to their presence in the hearts of Muslims everywhere because of the Qur'an. Casey

Does the Qur'an teach that Jesus and the Father are in the hearts of Muslims everywhere? If so, please give the reference.

I agree that the Holy Spirit works on the hearts and minds of all people everywhere, but the fact that the Holy Spirit is working on a person's heart is no evidence of itself that a person has been saved.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

Could you please write about any differences between the Qur'an and the Bible? Are there in fact any differences? For instance, in the story of how Jesus was born, who Jesus was/is, and in who the Bible says made the world?

I can give you my opinion, but I know that if you read the Qur'an without preconceptions asking God's guidance through the Holy Spirit, you will see the differences and understand more quickly than I did.

The major difference between the Bible and the Qur'an is that the Quran is not a narrative.

Good point, and one that I was about to mention. This difference is a major one and impacts the whole of the Qur'an.

Quote:

Much of it is presented more as a commentary like Ezekiel and the other books of the prophets, and much is presented as Leviticus or other books that have Moses articulating statutes of the Law that the Children of Israel were to follow.

The commentary is the on narratives in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments as we call them. To understand the Qur'an's commentary and metaphor on Biblical events and personalities like David, Solomon, Moses, Joseph, etc... knowledge of the narratives, or stories, recorded in the Bible is assumed.

Again, knowledge of the of the Bible, and the obligation to believe the revelations therein, is commanded many times in the Qur'an, though few Muslims read it.

True. Why don't they read it? We can discuss this as we go along. I think the Qur'an itself contains the reasons that Muslims don't read the Bible.

Quote:

In the Qur'an, as in the books of the prophets of the Bible, God is represented as speaking in the first person directly to the prophet. Instead of "Thus saith the Lord", however, in the Qur'an God simply says to Muhammad, "Say".

For example:

"They ask you about the (final) Hour, when will be its appointed time? Say: "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord (alone): None but He can reveal as to when it will occur. Heavy were its burden through the heavens and the earth. Only, all of a sudden will it come to you." They ask you as if you were eager in search thereof: Say: "The knowledge thereof is with God (alone), but most men know not."" [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 7:187]

Thus the Qur'an words Jesus' statement in the Gospels:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no (man), no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." [KJV-Bible - Matthew 24:36]

One thing that becomes readily apparent to anyone who has studied literature and compares the Koran with the Bible is that the style of the latter is far superior to that of the former. Many scholars have observed this and written extensively about it, ever since the first translations were made of the Qur'an back about 1100. Again we will have opportunity to discuss this aspect of the difference as we go along with our exchange.

The attraction of the Arab for the Qur'an is often explained by Arabs as being directly related to the drum-like rhythm of the original Arabic. It is hypnotic in its effect. Nothing of this aspect comes across in its reading in English. On the contrary most readers of the English translation of the Qur'an find the language difficult and anything but beautiful to the ear or eye. To see what I am talking about, all one need do is read about 10 pages of Genesis, Isaiah, the Psalms, or the Gospels in any translation and compare these with 10 pages of the Qur'an.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

Quote:

Some Christians want to make Muslims out to be terrible and other Christians seem too eager to focus on our similarities. I am a little cautious about jumping on either bandwagon.

Our similarities are that we share a common ancestor named "Adam".

Our differences stem from the fact that Christianity is a branch of Judaism, and so we too are rooted in Sarai's long ago jealousy of Hagar and Ismael, which resulted in the splitting of the "Covenant of Circumcision" between the two sons of Abraham, of which the promise of the Holy Land was a large part.

God, loving both sons, promised both the same land, knowing exactly what would result.

And here we are today.

Where do you find the Biblical evidence that God promised Ishmael the land of Palestine?

It's true that God promised Abraham that Ishmael would be the father of a "great nation," but my understanding is that Ishmael's descendants of Ishmael lived in the Wilderness of Paran and Shur, both of which are located on the Sinai Peninsula (Genesis 21: 21;cf. Gen. 25: 18). Another place the Bible mentions his descendants living was in Havilah, on the Saudi Arabian Peninsula. Ishmael appears to have been a wild and wayward child, just as the angel of God had told his mother Hagar, "He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him" (Gen. 16:12).

Quote:

Any atheist seeking proof of God has only to watch the evening news.

I agree with you that one of the strongest proofs of God's existence is the existence of the Jews. What the Bible predicted would happen clear back in Deut. 28 actually happened and we still see its effects today. The Jews disobeyed God and rebelled, and consequently God spread them out all around the world, where they remain to this day, except for a portion who have returned to their original lands under the the protection of the US military and the UN.

By the way, not long before Arafat died, he is reported to have stated something to the effect that "there is not enough space on this planet for the sons of Ishmael and the sons of Isaac to live at the same time. One of them must die."

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

...God does not say in the Qur'an that He didn't create Jesus by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary, rather God says He did not "beget", or have sex with Mary, so that Jesus cannot be His literal son as the Roman Church of the time claimed Jesus to be.

The Roman Church did not know about modern fertilization, and it had to justify the teaching that Jesus was the literal Son of God. If you'll scroll up there is a link to a Wikipedia article on Mary that I've posted, which documents the various "revelations" received that, at the time, confirmed that Jesus was the literal Son of God and Mary.

I didn't see anything that said Romans Catholics once believed and taught that God literally had sex with Mary to produce Jesus Christ. If you have evidence of that, could you please post it?

[John317]

Quote:

It portrays Christ as talking to his mother immediately after his birth, and gives credence to an apocryphal story about the child Jesus' making a bird from clay and breathing into it so as to cause it to fly away.

Jesus said we must eat His flesh, because it is the Bread of Life.

He called these Words of the Spirit. They are metaphor.

The bird of clay Jesus freed is Christianity, you and me. Freed from the bonds of the Law which Muhammad knew he was placing on his own people exactly as Moses did, because the order which the Law brings is what they so desperately needed.

Yes, Jesus was speaking metaphorically about His flesh being the Bread of Life. But in the story as written in the Koran, given below, it seems obvious that it is not intended to be understood metaphorically. For instance, the reference to Jesus' raising the dead is to be understood literally or historically, as are the references to the children of Israel and to Jesus' healing of the blind, etc. That much is without question. It won't do to make one part of the passage metaphorical and the rest of it historical. Upon what basis do we interpret it metaphorically only, rather than historically, especially in light of the fact that we know that there existed just such a story about the child Jesus' freeing clay birds, about 350 years before the birth of Muhammad?

The very same ancient story contains a foolish report of the infant Jesus' speaking like an adult while lying in his cradle, which is also referred to in the Koran in the same passage as the one that speaks of Jesus' freeing the clay bird.

What the Koran is referring to, then, is based on an ancient belief that some Christians held and was recorded in the 2nd and 3rd centuries. You may find these stories about Jesus making clay birds, giving them life, and making them fly away-- in The Lost Books of the Bible and the Forgotten Books of Eden, World Bible Publishers. One such story is in "The First Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ," Chapter XV. Another such story is in "Thomas's Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ," Chapter I. The Koran clearly borrowed the story from those well-known stories.

This is the reference in the Koran:

[5.110] "When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment."

A simple comparison of the Koran with the ancient early Christian stories about the child Jesus makes it abundantly clear that the reference in the Koran, like so many of its references, comes from a Christian document.

Regards,

"John 3:17"