Differences of opinion

[BibleShockers]

How are differences of opinion handled in SDA assemblies? For example, if, after being a member of good standing for 3 years, while reading the Bible, someone comes to a different understanding of a particular passage that changes his/her view about an important thing like the moral law. What happens?

For example, if after being an Adventist I come to not believe in "The Doctrine of the Trinity" or even that the believer is required to observe the Sabbath - what happens next?

Thanks for any insight,

Bill Ross

[Gail]

It depends. Some with differing beliefs do head out of the church on their own after a time. I think that would be the natural result.

Some are attacked. Can't deny that.

But Bill, the people who I admire most for their steadfastness and their Christ-likeness are those who are longsuffering with others. They tend to be fair and kind with those who have come to different conclusions. They keep in touch with them and treat them with respect even if they feel that they must be frank.

They are ones that are not afraid to have friendships with others outside the church.

They are also not afraid to be well-read, even non-Adventist authors such as the Christian classics. Ellen White and HMS Richards are two names that come to mind as two that owned extensive librairies. They know that if they read something that they have studied and have not held to be true, that they have the privilege to say No on that point. We are convicted differently and there is always room for growth.

They are the ones that will treat others fairly. They are also ones that I have found to be the most steadfast in their beliefs.

You will surely find others that will be condemning. I have to be honest. But honestly speaking I can say that I have seen some very narrow-minded people themselves leave the church, their faith made shipwreck, and I have seen others grow into more accepting, beautiful Christians.

My hope is that you can continue to discuss here AND find some lifelong friends! I pray that God's name may be upheld and praised in discussion AND in relationships here :)

[BibleShockers]

Thanks, Gail.

So are you saying that the SDA does not in any way stigmatize someone who does not share "important" doctrines such as the Trinity or 7th day observance?

Bill Ross

[John317]

The important thing is to study and know what one believes before joining a church or denomination, or even a "non-denominational" church.

As an example, I studied Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs and teachings for about 2 years along with several members of that organization. They wanted me to join, but I didn't feel I could join them honestly because there were just so many things they teach that I do not believe the Bible teaches.

One of my friends said, "Come go door-to-door with us. It doesn't matter if you still have some questions about our beliefs. Just accept them anyway. Take it on faith. You will find that if you join us, you will soon have all your questions answered."

I found during my study with them that I was in agreement with about 75% of their doctrines.

But I am sure that if I had joined them even while knowing I didn't agree on that 25%, it would have caused conflict and confusion later on. I didn't want to join them if I didn't believe in their teachings 100%. I wouldn't have felt it was honest on my part.

[Gail]

Do you mean make them feel guilty for not sharing?

I think that is left to one's conscience for the most part.

You will in any setting find someone willing to condemn, just for the sake of condemning. I feel it is in their nature and the person will behave that way anyway.

But I tend to stay away from those folks, as anyone would, in or out of the church. Those people are not limited to church congregations.

People with healthy spiritual lives will want to share what they have in some way. It is natural.

It is how we handle those who differ in conviction that can make the difference in relationships both in and out of the church.

There is a time to speak and a time to keep silence. One must examine oneself to know when is when! :)

[Gail]

It is my rule of thumb that one can only judge or make decisions according to the information one has.

[Gail]

Quote:

But I am sure that if I had joined them even while knowing I didn't agree on that 25%, it would have caused conflict and confusion later on. I didn't want to join them if I didn't believe in their teachings 100%. I wouldn't have felt it was honest on my part.

I appreciate where John317 is coming from. A person should feel convicted by the Spirit, not pressured.

[John317]

Anyone, irrespective of belief, is welcome and invited to worship and fellowship with Seventh-day Adventists.

Before baptism and becoming a member of a local Seventh-day Adventist congregation-- as with any church-- there is a series of Bible studies the pastor will want the prospective member to understand and be in agreement with. Also, new members are asked to give their public acknowledgment of belief in Christ and in the core doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Those core doctrines do include, among others, the Trinity, the Ten Commandments, and the 7th day Sabbath.

Have you had an opportunity to study the fundamental teachings of the church? I'll give you a link here so you can take a look:

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/

[John317]

Quote:

But I am sure that if I had joined them even while knowing I didn't agree on that 25%, it would have caused conflict and confusion later on. I didn't want to join them if I didn't believe in their teachings 100%. I wouldn't have felt it was honest on my part.

I appreciate where John317 is coming from. A person should feel convicted by the Spirit, not pressured.

Yes, that's right. But I wouldn't want to leave the impression that it's necessary for everyone to be in 100% agreement with everything the Seventh-day Adventist church teaches before they can be baptized or join the church. People grow spiritually and learn more as we study the Bible and understand what it means to be a Christian and disciple of Christ.

[BibleShockers]

>>>...I found during my study with them that I was in agreement with about 75% of their doctrines.

But I am sure that if I had joined them even while knowing I didn't agree on that 25%, it would have caused conflict and confusion later on. I didn't want to join them if I didn't believe in their teachings 100%. I wouldn't have felt it was honest on my part.

Thanks for sharing that, John. This touches on the nerve of what my concern is. My concern is that not too many people agree on 100%. So how do groups handle that x% of disagreement? Your solution was to not "join." But do you really agree with the SDAs 100%?

If so, then I am amazed!

If not, then do you hoof around until you find an assembly with which you agree 100%?

The JWs, as I understand, make it a point of doctrine that they are in 100% agreement. They cite, I believe:

Ro 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Any deviation from the Watchtower will not be prosecuted unless you try to convince someone else (ie: you open your big mouth).

Is that the policy in SDA? Just keep dissenting opinions to yourself?

Bill

[BibleShockers]

>>>...Before baptism and becoming a member of a local Seventh-day Adventist congregation-- as with any church-- there is a series of Bible studies the pastor will want the prospective member to understand and be in agreement with. Also, new members are asked to give their public acknowledgment of belief in Christ and in the core doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Those core doctrines do include, among others, the Trinity, the Ten Commandments, and the 7th day Sabbath....

And do you think that this is a scriptural approach?

Bill

[olger]

If Herod & Herodias visited your church next sabbath and wanted to worship what would we say?

What then would we say if they demanded to become members?

In the first case, I would say "Come in and sit with us."

In the second case, I would say "Uhh, we need to talk first." Then if they weren't wlling to change their adulterous situation, I would say "No."

oG

[John317]

Any deviation from the Watchtower will not be prosecuted unless you try to convince someone else (ie: you open your big mouth).

Is that the policy in SDA? Just keep dissenting opinions to yourself?

Bill

No, the SDA church is not at all like the Watchtower in that way. We do share some teachings in common, but when it comes to freedom and the basis of our conviction of truth, we are really nothing like them.

What I wrote about my experience is just that, my own experience. I am not saying that all who join the church must be in agreement with all the church's official doctrines. Yet if a person is convicted that the church is teaching error on some fundamental teaching, I doubt they would want to join it.

Maybe I'm wrong on this point, though. Maybe people want to join for other reasons, such as liking the people or because they can't find another church that is as close to their own personal beliefs.

One thing I would want to emphasize is that the church welcomes anyone to come study, pray, and worship with us. No one has to have any particular beliefs to do that.

[BibleShockers]

>>>...Then if they weren't wlling to change their adulterous situation, I would say "No."

I'm not talking about adultery, which is addressed specifically here:

1 Cor 5:

9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

I'm asking about a significant difference of opinions. How would that be handled?

Bill

[BibleShockers]

I found this on the SDA site under "Strategic Issues":

***

2. Unity of the church demonstrated by:

a. Cohesiveness in doctrine: resulting from Spirit-guided world Church-approval of Bible-based, Christ-centered fundamental beliefs.

***

As I understand this, unity is acheived by "holding together" (cohesiveness) of doctrine. Would that mean "keeping everyone in agreement?"

It refers to "Spirit-guided world Church-approval." Would that mean that the whole Church in the whole world is subject to approval by the Spirit as guide?

And then: "...of Bible-based, Christ-centered fundamental beliefs". Does that mean that the Spirit-guide operates by requiring approval by a set of fundamental beliefs?

As I read it then, unity is acheived by requiring all aspects of the Church to be checked for consistency with a creed of some sort?

Bill

[BibleShockers]

I had a girlfriend once who told me "I go for the jugular." I've come to appreciate how insiightful that was!

To me, the matter of how differences of opinion are dealt with is one of the most strategic issues, if not THE most central issue that the Bible address in the NT. I feel that if I could fix this, I could fix the Church (which to my mind is fatally broken).

I am not impressed by the SDA approach (as expressed on their web site and cited above) as it is the completely wrong solution.

Bill

[Gail]

Jesus is the Great relationship healer. If we could but follow His methods and share His love, we could lead others to trust in Him.

I hope that this is your goal in life, to glorify God in your dealings with others and your communion with them. As Christ drew others to Him as He was lifted up, so I pray that He will be lifted up among us as well.

The website might not give you as much information as your communion with members in person. God bless your inquiries

:)

[BibleShockers]

>>>Jesus is the Great relationship healer. If we could but follow His methods and share His love, we could lead others to trust in Him...

But what are his methods? That is what I am hoping will come to light as a result of this discussion. I really don't think that anyone is applying his methods! They appear to be extinct!

Bill Ross

[Fausto]

It refers to "Spirit-guided world Church-approval." Would that mean that the whole Church in the whole world is subject to approval by the Spirit as guide?

[John317]

>>>...Before baptism and becoming a member of a local Seventh-day Adventist congregation-- as with any church-- there is a series of Bible studies the pastor will want the prospective member to understand and be in agreement with. Also, new members are asked to give their public acknowledgment of belief in Christ and in the core doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church. Those core doctrines do include, among others, the Trinity, the Ten Commandments, and the 7th day Sabbath....

And do you think that this is a scriptural approach?

Bill

What do you find in the NT that particularly contradicts this?

The church is able to do what does not contradict the Bible. I can't see how the above does that.

Here are some verses which I believe supports the way the Seventh-day Adventist church practices its agreement?

Matt. 28: 19, 20; Acts 8: 35-38

See 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus.

[BibleShockers]

>>>What do you find in the NT that particularly contradicts this?

The church is able to do what does not contradict the Bible. I can't see how the above does that.

Here are some verses which I believe supports the way the Seventh-day Adventist church practices its agreement?

Matt. 28: 19, 20; Acts 8: 35-38

See 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus.

I see 1 Corinthians as being where Paul deals with differences of opinion. It is also in this letter that he outlines what he refers to as "the better approach" to unity. The letter is, IMHO, misunderstood and neglected.

I believe that if the letter were understood and applied it would be such a paradigm shift that it would be appropriate to call it a revolution. Failure to heed the letter has rendered every Church to be, IMHO, Christian in name only. Paul would not consider, for example, any SDA Church worthy to be called a Christian church and would say that it would be better not to meet at all!

I know this sounds harsh and fixated but I think it is exactly what Paul says in the rather lengthy letter. Paul "stood in doubt" about the Galatians because they were listening to the Jewish believers and considering become Torah observant. In 1 Cor, Paul says that they were in danger of being "judged with the world." In Revelation, each of the 7 churches stood in danger of having their candle removed from his candelabra (the Pleiades).

And I personally will never again darken the door of a so-called Church until it operates by this approach, not as protest, but because the way they currently operate (modeled after Rome) is obnoxious to me.

Before going to 1 Cor, I wanted to look at this passage:

Titus 3:

10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

The word translated "heretick" here actually refers to someone affiliated with a sect.

So what is a sect? It is a "division." In modern times, it is what we call a "denomination" because sects have names.

So my question is, isn't SDA a sect?

Bill Ross

[Fausto]

So my question is, isn't SDA a sect?

[BibleShockers]

>>>...That is a pretty harsh view Bill, don't you agree?...

I did not say "a cult." I did not say "heretical." I asked if the SDA is a sect/denomination. I would think it would be obvious that they are.

****

sect

2 entries found.

sect[1,noun]sect[2,abbreviation]

Main Entry: 1sect

Pronunciation: \ˈsekt\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English secte, from Anglo-French & Late Latin & Latin; Anglo-French, group, faction, from Late Latin secta organized ecclesiastical body, from Latin, course of action, way of life, probably from sectari to pursue, frequentative of sequi to follow — more at sue

Date: 14th century

1 a: a dissenting or schismatic religious body; especially : one regarded as extreme or heretical b: a religious denomination

2archaic : sex 1 <so is all her sect — Shakespeare>

3 a: a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or to a leader b: party c: faction

****

I am not singling out SDA because I think it worse in this regard than say the Presbyterians, Baptists or Lutherans. I am just trying to consider an example near at hand.

****

denomination

One entry found.

denomination

Main Entry: de·nom·i·na·tion

Pronunciation: \di-&#716;nä-m&#601;-&#712;n&#257;-sh&#601;n\

Function: noun

Date: 15th century

1: an act of denominating

2: a value or size of a series of values or sizes (as of money)

3: name, designation; especially : a general name for a category

4: a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

****

Is SDA not a denomination? A named sect?

Bill

[Fausto]

Ok, I might have gone a bit far, so yes they are a denomination, in fact the other worlwide chucrh organization as you would see if you go into the main website!

[BibleShockers]

>>>Ok, I might have gone a bit far, so yes they are a denomination, in fact the other worlwide chucrh organization as you would see if you go into the main website!

Thanks. Please be assured that I'm not pointing fingers, trying to negatively compare SDA to any other sect. I'm just trying to view things through my paranoina/Pauline perspective (which ever we wind up deeming it to be)!

I think we can agree that what is called "the Church" is a collection of denominations, one of which is the SDA.

So my next question is, is this a biblical situation? I think that is a fair question.

Bill