Differences of opinion

[BibleShockers]

>>>When you translated those verses, John 1: 10-14, were you under the impression that HO LOGOS and the pronouns were neuter?

No.

Aside from wanting to presume that a Greek reader would read "He" for "it" in a discussion of the utterances "let there be" (not likely), do you have a problem with the (admittedly loose, but correct understanding) translation?

[BibleShockers]

>>>Looking at it from the Biblical viewpoint..."Saints" are not sinless people. They still have struggles and spiritual growth to go through.

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

>>>As they grow and study and understand the gospel, they will come to the point where they are no longer committing or practicing willful, deliberate sin; but a believer's position in Christ as a "saint" means that he is set aside from what is common for God's purposes.

It sounds like you are an antinomian.

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>OK, where do you see the evidence or proof of sin on the part of Jesus Christ? I do not see it here.

Quote:

BILL-- Look at verse 3:

Heb 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

Note that Jesus likewise made an offering for his sins - his life...

Look at the whole passage of Hebrew 5:1-5. You will find that verse 3 is referring to human priests and not to Christ. It is saying that human priests offered sacrifices for their own sins-- of course-- for they also needed a Savior. It is not saying that Christ is like the human priest in ALL details, even in the human priest's sinfulness. The NT specifically denies this.

Jesus did not need anyone to save Him from sin. If He had sinned, however, Jesus Himself would have needed a Savior; and thus Jesus could not have been our Savior.

1Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.

4No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. 5So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

"You are my Son;

today I have become your Father."

[BibleShockers]

>>>Quote:

BILL-- No. The Hebrews passage argues that he HAD to have sinned. He just did not have sinful flesh.

>>>It seems to me that you are not letting the text talk to you but are trying to force your assumptions on it. Does the text say that Jesus committed sin? Or are you putting words in its mouth and reading things between the lines that are not there?

What, in your opinion, is the force of his argument by bringing up these items:

* every priest is taken from among men

* they can have compassion because they also have weakness

* so they have to sacrifice for their own sins

Then he says:

* Jesus was a man who had to learn obedience

* he is a [fully qualified] compassionate high priest

* he made sacrifice for his own sins

Please tell me what you think the force of his argument is, if not that!

[BibleShockers]

>>>Look at the whole passage of Hebrew 5:1-5. You will find that verse 3 is referring to human priests and not to Christ. It is saying that human priests offered sacrifices for their own sins-- of course-- for they also needed a Savior. It is not saying that Christ is like the human priest in ALL details, even in the human priest's sinfulness. The NT specifically denies this.

What does Heb 7:27 say that Jesus did once?:

Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: ***for this he did once, when he offered up himself***.

[John317]

>>>Looking at it from the Biblical viewpoint..."Saints" are not sinless people. They still have struggles and spiritual growth to go through.

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

>>>As they grow and study and understand the gospel, they will come to the point where they are no longer committing or practicing willful, deliberate sin; but a believer's position in Christ as a "saint" means that he is set aside from what is common for God's purposes.

It sounds like you are an antinomian.

There are a few members of the Forum who would pass out hearing you say that. They think I tend more to being a legalist. LOL

Let me ask you, do you understand those verses to be talking about never committing a sin?

Check out the Greek in those passes, particularly regarding the verbs, such as "sinneth not", etc.

Here it is in good translations:

New American Standard Bible---

1See (A)how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called (B)children of God; and such we are For this reason the world does not know us, because ©it did not know Him.

2(D)Beloved, now we are (E)children of God, and (F)it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He (G)appears, we will be (H)like Him, because we will (I)see Him just as He is.

3And everyone who has this (J)hope fixed on Him (K)purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and (L)sin is lawlessness.

5You know that He (M)appeared in order to (N)take away sins; and (O) in Him there is no sin.

6No one who abides in Him (P)sins; no one who sins has seen Him or (Q)knows Him.

7®Little children, make sure no one (S)deceives you; (T)the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

8the one who practices sin is (U)of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning (V)The Son of God (W)appeared for this purpose, (X)to destroy the works of the devil.

9No one who is (Y)born of God (Z)practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10By this the (AA)children of God and the (AB)children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who (AC)does not love his (AD)brother.

Read this translation carefully, because it gives the verb forms correctly:

1SEE WHAT [[a]an incredible] quality of love the Father has given (shown, bestowed on) us, that we should [be permitted to] be named and called and counted the children of God! And so we are! The reason that the world does not know (recognize, acknowledge) us is that it does not know (recognize, acknowledge) Him.

2Beloved, we are [even here and] now God's children; it is not yet disclosed (made clear) what we shall be [hereafter], but we know that when He comes and is manifested, we shall [as God's children] resemble and be like Him, for we shall see Him [c]just as He [really] is.

3And everyone who has this hope [resting] on Him cleanses (purifies) himself just as He is pure (chaste, undefiled, guiltless).

4Everyone who commits (practices) sin is guilty of lawlessness; for [that is what] sin is, lawlessness (the breaking, violating of God's law by transgression or neglect--being unrestrained and unregulated by His commands and His will).

5You know that He appeared in visible form and became Man to take away [upon Himself] sins, and in Him there is no sin [[d]essentially and forever].

6No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains [e]in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and [f]habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].

7[g]Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous.

8[but] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].

9No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [h]habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

10By this it is made clear who take their nature from God and are His children and who take their nature from the devil and are his children: no one who does not practice righteousness [who does not conform to God's will in purpose, thought, and action] is of God; neither is anyone who does not love his brother (his fellow believer in Christ).

[BibleShockers]

>>>There are a few members of the Forum who would pass out hearing you say that. They think I tend more to being a legalist. LOL

I didn't say you weren't a legalist! You can be both. That is the depiction of the Pharisees. The word "hypocrite" means "hyper-critical" - overly meticulous about the law. But at the same time, they would freely "loose" various laws and consider them non-binding.

>>>Let me ask you, do you understand those verses to be talking about never committing a sin?

Once one has died to sin. That is the nature of dying to sin. That is also the nature of repentance. And holiness. And faithfulness.

Doesn't your law say that one should love the lord their God with all of their heart?

How much sinning can you get away with?

[John317]

>>>There are a few members of the Forum who would pass out hearing you say that. They think I tend more to being a legalist. LOL

I didn't say you weren't a legalist! You can be both. That is the depiction of the Pharisees. The word "hypocrite" means "hyper-critical" - overly meticulous about the law. But at the same time, they would freely "loose" various laws and consider them non-binding.

>>>Let me ask you, do you understand those verses to be talking about never committing a sin?

Once one has died to sin. That is the nature of dying to sin. That is also the nature of repentance. And holiness. And faithfulness.

Doesn't your law say that one should love the lord their God with all of their heart?

How much sinning can you get away with?

That is not my law. That is Christ's and God's law.

A person who loves the Lord with all his heart may still commit sins of ignorance and weakness. God knows the heart and mind, and therefore knows when it is in our heart to obey Him. God forgives even willful, deliberate sin if the individual sincerely repents and turns away from his sin.

We alone can put a limit on God's forgiveness and mercy-- and that is when we decide we don't want God or His forgiveness. We can decide this simply by continuous rejection of His word and of His Spirit. We can come to the point where we no longer desire Him in our life and have no interest in the truth of the Bible. God will not force Himself on us.

Read 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 2; and Romans 6 to 8.

[BibleShockers]

>>>That is not my law. That is Christ's and God's law.

Is it also Moses' law?

>>>A person who loves the Lord with all his heart may still commit sins of ignorance and weakness.

What would be an example of "a sin of ignorance"?

"A sin of weakness?"

>>>Read 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 2; and Romans 6 to 8.

Ok, now what?

Bill