Differences of opinion

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>I was very surprised to see that you don't believe that God loves the world. Why do you think this?

Because his love is extremely conditional, and no one meets his conditions.

2 Thess 2:

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [divine Jesus], that they should believe a [the] lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Bill Ross

God's love is unconditional. God loves Lucifer. But God cannot save Lucifer. There are conditions to salvation.

[John317]

In reference to the "spirit" of prophecy...

Is it the SDA position that one of the marks of the true remnant church that it recognizes Ellen White as a prophetess?

Thanks,

Bill

Yes, it is.

One of the identifying marks of the "remnant" of Rev. 12:17, and which are also described Rev. 14: 12, is that they will have the gift of prophecy among them. I believe-- and the Seventh-day Adventist church believes-- that Ellen White was a true prophet of God.

Here's the official statement of our beliefs:

17. Spiritual Gifts and Ministries:

God bestows upon all members of His church in every age spiritual gifts which each member is to employ in loving ministry for the common good of the church and of humanity. Given by the agency of the Holy Spirit, who apportions to each member as He wills, the gifts provide all abilities and ministries needed by the church to fulfill its divinely ordained functions. According to the Scriptures, these gifts include such ministries as faith, healing, prophecy, proclamation, teaching, administration, reconciliation, compassion, and self-sacrificing service and charity for the help and encouragement of people. Some members are called of God and endowed by the Spirit for functions recognized by the church in pastoral, evangelistic, apostolic, and teaching ministries particularly needed to equip the members for service, to build up the church to spiritual maturity, and to foster unity of the faith and knowledge of God. When members employ these spiritual gifts as faithful stewards of God's varied grace, the church is protected from the destructive influence of false doctrine, grows with a growth that is from God, and is built up in faith and love. (Rom. 12:4-8; 1 Cor. 12:9-11, 27, 28; Eph. 4:8, 11-16; Acts 6:1-7; 1 Tim. 3:1-13; 1 Peter 4:10, 11.)

18. The Gift of Prophecy:

One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

[BibleShockers]

>>>He himself said, "Which of you convict me of sin?"

Paul could have said the same thing, no?

>>>He said he always did what pleased His Father.

Paul could have said the same thing, no?

>>>He said He kept His Father's commandments.

Paul could have said the same thing, no? (Though not about the Torah).

>>>Hebrews says plainly that Jesus was "without sin."

No, Hebrews says that Jesus HAD to have sinned in order to be qualified as a compassionate high priest. What it said was "he was tempted in all point like as we are except sin." This was because he did not have [Mr.] sin in his flesh as is common to men.

>>>Jesus was called "holy and righteous" from the time of his conception.

Jesus wsa holy and righteous at the time of his conception.

>>>Satan tempted Him and could not cause Him to commit sin.

That was not all points.

>>>God the Father testified publicly that He was well pleased with Jesus Christ.

And he is pleased in others.

>>>It is the Devil who wants people to believe Christ was a sinner.

No, the Devile wants people to believe he is God!

Bill Ross

[John317]

>>>Since you understand some Greek, how do you believe John 1: 1 should be translated?

"In Genesis 1, when God was giving form and order to [not "creating"] the sky ceiling and the dry land system, the word [iE: "let there be..."] was there, with God, and the word was divine utterance. Divine utterance had always been with God. Everything in this ordering came about by means of this utterance, and nothing was accomplished without God uttering "let there be..." The word had life-giving power and the life animated men and made them self aware. By the agency of this same word, there was a special life brought about, and the life was humanity's light source. And the light shines on. The darkness did not suppress it. A man named John emerged who was indeed from god, who came as a witness to the light so that people would believe in the light because of his testimony. But no, he himself was not the light source for humanity but rather a witness for the light - the true light that gives light to mankind, which was coming to the community of lost men. It was in the community of lost men but was not itself a part of that lost community. The community of lost men came about through it but they did not correctly recognize it. It came to its own and its own did not accept it. But to as many as received it, to these it gave the privilege of becoming sons to God, to those who believed in its name. Not to those born of a particular blood line, or born because of sexual desires or the plans of a husband, but rather those whose birth can be attributed to God. And this word of God became embodied in human flesh! And we saw it's shining, like the shining of the unique son of a father, permeated with beneficence and with truth. John is a witness concerning him and has proclaimed "This man is the one of whom I said 'one of my disciples will pass me up' because he was more important than I." And so from the bounty embodied within him we have received beneficence upon beneficence, since the law came through Moses but through this man has come beneficence and truth. No one of us ever saw god but the special son, who is now dining intimately at the father's right hand, expounded him to us."

Is this your own personal paraphrase?

I was asking for a real translation, not a loose paraphrase. This is more like a commentary rather than a literal or acceptable, true translation.

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- >>>Who is the Word in John 1?

Quote:

Not "who" but "what." The word is the "let there be..." utterances in Gen 1.

Bill

Literal translation:

"HE was with God.... Through HIM all things were made... In HIM was life.... the world was made through HIM.... the world did not recognize HIM.... HIS own did not receive HIM.... The Word became flesh... We have seen HIS glory...." John 1: 2-14.

Give me the literal translation of John 1: 1.

Parse the last phrase and explain why you translate it the way you do.

[BibleShockers]

>>>God's love is unconditional.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

>>>God loves Lucifer.

"Lucifer?" Who is that?

>>>But God cannot save Lucifer. There are conditions to salvation.

Which no one meets.

[BibleShockers]

>>>One of the identifying marks of the "remnant" of Rev. 12:17, and which are also described Rev. 14: 12, is that they will have the gift of prophecy among them. I believe-- and the Seventh-day Adventist church believes-- that Ellen White was a true prophet of God.

So do her writings essentially join the ranks of Jeremiah and Micah et al?

Thanks,

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>He himself said, "Which of you convict me of sin?"

No. Paul said, "I am the worst of sinners."

Paul never would have claimed to be without sin.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Is this your own personal paraphrase?

Yes.

>>>I was asking for a real translation, not a loose paraphrase. This is more like a commentary rather than a literal or acceptable, true translation.

What verse do you object to?

>>>"He was with God.... Through HIM all things were made... In HIM was life.... the world was made through HIM.... the world did not recognize HIM.... HIS own did not receive HIM.... The Word became flesh... We have seen HIS glory...." John 1: 2-14.

LOGOS is a neuter noun meaning "utterance." Why "he?"

[John317]

>>>God's love is unconditional.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Quote:

JOHN 3:17-- >>>God loves Lucifer.

The devil. The father of lies and of sin.

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- >>>But God cannot save Lucifer. There are conditions to salvation.

Quote:

BILL-- Which no one meets.

What does the Bible teach are the conditions of salvation?

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>"He was with God.... Through HIM all things were made... In HIM was life.... the world was made through HIM.... the world did not recognize HIM.... HIS own did not receive HIM.... The Word became flesh... We have seen HIS glory...." John 1: 2-14.

Quote:

BILL ROSS-- LOGOS is a neuter noun meaning "utterance." Why "he?"

Do you have a Greek text book? The neuter definite article to.

Check out the definite article: ho. It's masculine. So is the noun Logos. HO LOGOS is nominative masculine singular.

[BibleShockers]

>>>What does the Bible teach are the conditions of salvation?

"Salvation" is a yet future event.

"Justification" is based on believing God's report that he raised Jesus from death.

Upon believing, one's sins are all forgiven.

One must likewise forgive everyone else, judge no one and live a worthy life.

Specifically damning activities are emperor worship (worshiping Jesus as God), being beholden to the law, rejecting the holy breath, hating or murdering one's brother, sectarianism, and so on.

In other words, since SDAs are Trinitarians, beholden to the law and sectarians Paul would give you only a couple of warnings and then leave you to be condemned.

[BibleShockers]

>>>No. Paul said, "I am the worst of sinners."

Paul never would have claimed to be without sin.

What Paul said is that this makes a great Christian creed:

1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

He was not saying that he currently was the worst of all sinners. No, he was dead to sin. He was a saint, a holy one.

[John317]

>>>No. Paul said, "I am the worst of sinners."

Paul never would have claimed to be without sin.

What Paul said is that this makes a great Christian creed:

1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

He was not saying that he currently was the worst of all sinners. No, he was dead to sin. He was a saint, a holy one.

Did Paul ever say he never sinned? No. He readily admitted that he had been a great sinner.

The Bible says Jesus never sinned.

He himself said, "Which of you convict me of sin?"

He said he always did what pleased His Father.

He said He kept His Father's commandments.

Hebrews says plainly that Jesus was "without sin."

Jesus was called "holy and righteous" from the time of his conception.

Satan tempted Him and could not cause Him to commit sin.

God the Father testified publicly that He was well pleased with Jesus Christ.

[BibleShockers]

>>>..HO LOGOS is a noun nominative masculine singular.

Duh. Yes, you are right. But of course that does not dictate "sex" only "form." We are talking about "utterance" here so you say "it."

Do you normally assign personal pronouns to inanimate objects? Of course not.

Do you have ANY doubt that his referent is the "let there be" statements in Genesis 1?

[BibleShockers]

>>>Did Paul ever say he never sinned? No. He readily admitted that he had been a great sinner.

The Bible says Jesus never sinned.

No. The Hebrews passage argues that he HAD to have sinned. He just did not have sinful flesh.

Hebrews 5:

1 ¶ For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>What does the Bible teach are the conditions of salvation?

Quote:

BILL-- "Salvation" is a yet future event.

The NT speaks of salvation as a current process which will be fully realized at the Second Coming. God is in the process of healing us right now if we will let Him. So we are being saved and will be saved-- both may be true statements. In the same way, it refers to "eternal life" as a present possession of those who have Jesus Christ. It is a quality of life which may begin now and ends in the gift of immortality at the Second Coming.

[John317]

BILL ---No, he was dead to sin. He was a saint, a holy one.

Biblically, "Saint" is a term that refers to all who have made Christ their Lord and Savior and are sanctified in Him. See the first chapter of 1 Cor. God has set them apart to be His possession and for His service.

[John317]

>>>Did Paul ever say he never sinned? No. He readily admitted that he had been a great sinner.

The Bible says Jesus never sinned.

No. The Hebrews passage argues that he HAD to have sinned. He just did not have sinful flesh.

Hebrews 5:

1 ¶ For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

OK, where do you see the evidence or proof of sin on the part of Jesus Christ?

I do not see it here.

Is this all the evidence you have that Jesus was a sinner?

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>..HO LOGOS is a noun nominative masculine singular.

Quote:

BILL-- Duh. Yes, you are right. But of course that does not dictate "sex" only "form." We are talking about "utterance" here so you say "it."

Do you normally assign personal pronouns to inanimate objects? Of course not.

Do you have ANY doubt that his referent is the "let there be" statements in Genesis 1?

OK, I'm just looking at this from the point of view of grammar.

The context determines whether it is an inanimate object. Does the context show that "the logos" is an inanimate object?

What does the first chapter of John say about the logos?

What does it the NT say about Christ?

[John317]

You don't need to answer this question.

Just think about it.

Are you open to the evidence or are you trying to fit the evidence to some favorite view?

I ask myself the same question all the time. I deliberately try to look at these things as objectively as a person can. It's the only way to arrive at the truth. Otherwise we can end up believing something that is based on a pile of sand.

For instance, when it comes to John 1 (especially 1:1-3) and the identity of the logos, forget our preconceptions and just look at the text objectively, as if it is a piece of literature you picked up awhile ago and are trying to understand what it is saying.

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>Did Paul ever say he never sinned? No. He readily admitted that he had been a great sinner.

The Bible says Jesus never sinned.

Quote:

BILL-- No. The Hebrews passage argues that he HAD to have sinned. He just did not have sinful flesh.

It seems to me that you are not letting the text talk to you but are trying to force your assumptions on it. Does the text say that Jesus committed sin? Or are you putting words in its mouth and reading things between the lines that are not there?

[BibleShockers]

>>>Biblically, "Saint" is a term that refers to all who have made Christ their Lord and Savior. See the first chapter of 1 Cor.

So, in your view, a saint can simultaneously be the cheif of sinners?! What do you understand "holy" to mean?!

[John317]

Quote:

BILL ROSS--- ..... It was in the community of lost men but was not itself a part of that lost community. The community of lost men came about through it but they did not correctly recognize it. It came to its own and its own did not accept it. But to as many as received it, to these it gave the privilege of becoming sons to God, to those who believed in its name. Not to those born of a particular blood line, or born because of sexual desires or the plans of a husband, but rather those whose birth can be attributed to God. And this word of God became embodied in human flesh! And we saw it's shining,... [/quote']

When you translated those verses, John 1: 10-14, were you under the impression that HO LOGOS and the pronouns were neuter?

[John317]

>>>Biblically, "Saint" is a term that refers to all who have made Christ their Lord and Savior. See the first chapter of 1 Cor.

So, in your view, a saint can simultaneously be the cheif of sinners?! What do you understand "holy" to mean?!

Looking at it from the Biblical viewpoint, a person is a "saint" the moment they confess Jesus Christ and accept Him as Savior and Lord. "Saints" are not sinless people. They still have struggles and spiritual growth to go through.

As they grow and study and understand the gospel, they will come to the point where they are no longer committing or practicing willful, deliberate sin; but a believer's position in Christ as a "saint" means that he is set aside from what is common for God's purposes.

[BibleShockers]

>>>OK, where do you see the evidence or proof of sin on the part of Jesus Christ? I do not see it here.

Look at verse 3:

Heb 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

Note that Jesus likewise made an offering for his sins - his life:

Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his [God'] glory, and the express image of his [God's] person, and upholding all things by the word of his [God's] power, when he had by himself purged our sins [made purification for his sins], sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The words "our sins" were added by the translators.

>>>Is this all the evidence you have that Jesus was a sinner?

Paul refers to this. He says Jesus died to his sins:

Ro 6:

10 For in that he [Jesus] died, ***he [Jesus] died unto sin*** once: but in that he [Jesus] liveth, ***he [Jesus] liveth unto God***.

11 ***Likewise*** reckon ye also yourselves to be ***dead indeed unto sin***, but ***alive unto God*** through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Also, this is why he refused to be called "good" - only God is good. And this is why he did not cast the first stone, if you accept that as original.