Differences of opinion

[John317]

I think we can agree that what is called "the Church" is a collection of denominations, one of which is the SDA.

So my next question is, is this a biblical situation? I think that is a fair question.

Bill

Yes, there is a very real sense in which the church of God consists of all those throughout the ages who will be saved at last in God's kingdom. That is not limited to any particular denomination.

It is certainly not the way God planned for it to be, but God knew it would happen, and there are indications in the NT that the separation of Christians into separate groups did not take God off guard.

If you go back into the history of the Christian church, you'll find that many of the separations occurred because people were disfellowshipped or forced to separate. That is what happened with Martin Luther, for instance. It is what happened to many of the early Adventists.

[Fausto]

So my next question is, is this a biblical situation? I think that is a fair question.

Yes, I believe so as I have pointed out, the bible does vindicate such a position, because of:

1 - Keeping all 10 commandments.

2 - Having and subscribing to the spirit of Prophecy which is the testimony of Jesus.

These are the two qualifiers IMHO.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Yes, there is a very real sense in which the church of God consists of all those throughout the ages who will be saved at last in God's kingdom. That is not limited to any particular denomination.

What I believe you are referring to is the concept of the "Invisible Church." As someone pointed out, the problem with the Invisible Church is that you can't see them!

>>>It is certainly not the way God planned for it to be,

So if you readily admit that your assembly and what you believe to be the Universal Church are "not the way God planned it to be," do you have any clear idea in your mind how it is supposed to be?

>>but God knew it would happen, and there are indications in the NT that the separation of Christians into separate groups did not take God off guard.

What are you referring to?

>>>If you go back into the history of the Christian church, you'll find that many of the separations occurred because people were disfellowshipped or forced to separate. That is what happened with Martin Luther, for instance. It is what happened to many of the early Adventists.

Remember, the focus of this conversation is "how (biblically) to handle differences of opinion." Luther is, of course, an immensely important, classic example.

I'm on your side here. You agree that things are not quite ideal. I'm trying to understand the problem, the ideal and to see what is involved in getting there.

Bill

[BibleShockers]

>>>Yes, I believe so as I have pointed out, the bible does vindicate such a position, because of:

1 - Keeping all 10 commandments.

2 - Having and subscribing to the spirit of Prophecy which is the testimony of Jesus.

These are the two qualifiers IMHO.

Fausto, are you saying that it is ok that SDA is a sect because it "keeps" the 10 commandments and assent to prophecy?

Or are you saying something else?

Bill

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>Yes, there is a very real sense in which the church of God consists of all those throughout the ages who will be saved at last in God's kingdom. That is not limited to any particular denomination.

What I believe you are referring to is the concept of the "Invisible Church." As someone pointed out, the problem with the Invisible Church is that you can't see them!

Who is the church?

The Bible teaches that the church consists of all those called out ones who are being saved and who will finally saved in God's kingdom.

The Bible doesn't say that these people all belong to a single denomination. So of course the true church of God are in all the various denominations, including the Roman Catholic church.

The church of God is consists in all those who have true faith in Christ and who will ultimately receive the gift of immortality and be saved in God's eternal kingdom.

Right now, as we look at the various church or denominations, we see the "wheat" and the "tares" all mixed together, and only God knows who the wheat is and who the tares are. The separation between the sheep and goats occurs at the Second Coming. We cannot tell the difference at this time. We have indications through fruits and works or behavior, but only God reads the heart. So He is the only One who truly knows who belongs to Him and who does not.

1 John 3 and Romans 8 have a lot to say about how we can tell if we belong to God.

[Fausto]

Fausto, are you saying that it is ok that SDA is a sect because it "keeps" the 10 commandments and assent to prophecy?

No, I am saying I believe it to be the remnant church because of those two statements, others believe the same.

I believe it to be an organized world church structure! I'd rather use that name instead!

[BibleShockers]

>>>No, I am saying I believe it to be the remnant church...

What is a "remnant church?"

Your speech is a bit unintelligible to me. You seem to speaking in a jargon that I am not familiar with.

Are you saying that while the rest of the church has apostasized, the SDAs are the one true remaining denomination?

Bill

[John317]

JOHN3:17-- >>>It is certainly not the way God planned for it to be,

Quote:

BILL ROSS-- So if you readily admit that your assembly and what you believe to be the Universal Church are "not the way God planned it to be," do you have any clear idea in your mind how it is supposed to be?

I am saying that God did not want Christ's followers to be in separate groups. That was not God's ideal. God's ideal was to have all of Christ's followers loving each other and in a single church.

But God knew ahead of time what would happen.

I have no doubt that the Seventh-day Adventist Church was raised up by God at the time it occurred to do a particular work in the world-- that of proclaiming the everlasting gospel, including the Three Angel's Messages of Rev. 14, in order to prepare people for the soon return of Jesus Christ. A very important part of that message is calling people away from false doctrines and into the truth of God's Word. (See Rev. 14: 8) The message results in a relatively small group called the Remnant (or last part) who are faithful to God and keep all of His commandments. (Reve. 14:12)

The next scene is Christ's Second Coming (Rev. 14: 14).

[John317]

>>>No, I am saying I believe it to be the remnant church...

What is a "remnant church?"

The term, "remnant" is found in several places throughout the Scriptures. One is in Rev. 12: 17 (KJV), and refers to the last part of something, the ones who remain-- and the Bible describes them as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (Compare rev. 14: 12 and 19: 10.)

[BibleShockers]

>>>...But God knew ahead of time what would happen.

??

>>>I have no doubt that the Seventh-day Adventist Church was raised up by God at the time it occurred in order to do a particular work in the world-- that of proclaiming the everlasting gospel, including the Three Angel's Messages of Rev. 14, in order to prepare people for the soon return of Jesus Christ.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sounds important!

>>>A very important part of that message is calling people away from false doctrines and into the truth of God's Word. (See Rev. 14: 8) The message results in a relatively small group called the Remnant (or last part) who are faithful to God and keep all of His commandments. (Reve. 14:12)

That verse does not mention a "remnant."

>>>The next scene is Christ's Second Coming (Rev. 14: 14).

I believe it's very likely that we are living very soon before the coming of Christ. All of the prophecies and signs certainly point in that direction.

So would it be fair to say that you believe that your sect is THE sect?

Bill

[BibleShockers]

>>>The term, "remnant" is found in several places throughout the Scriptures. One is in Rev. 12: 17 (KJV), and refers to the last part of something, the ones who remain-- and the Bible describes them as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (Compare rev. 14: 12 and 19: 10.)

So are those other non-remnant sects the false ones? And SDA the true?

Bill Ross

[John317]

>>>...But God knew ahead of time what would happen.

??

Yes, the Bible is very clear that God knows the future.

Ever study Daniel 2 or read Isaiah 42 to 45? Yahweh God says that He knows what is going to happen long before it takes place.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Yes, the Bible is very clear that God knows the future.

Ever study Daniel 2 or read Isaiah 42 to 45? Yahweh God says that He knows what is going to happen long before it takes place.

I'm sorry, I thought you said the NT had some specific indication that he had foreseen (and was thus OK with) denominations. Was your whole point that God sees the future?

Bill

[John317]

JOHN7:17-- >>>I have no doubt that the Seventh-day Adventist Church was raised up by God at the time it occurred in order to do a particular work in the world-- that of proclaiming the everlasting gospel, including the Three Angel's Messages of Rev. 14, in order to prepare people for the soon return of Jesus Christ.

Quote:

BILL ROSS-- I have no idea what you are talking about, but it sounds important!

You've come to the right place on the Internet.

13. Remnant and Its Mission:

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)

14. Unity in the Body of Christ:

The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In Christ we are a new creation; distinctions of race, culture, learning, and nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another; we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation. Through the revelation of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures we share the same faith and hope, and reach out in one witness to all. This unity has its source in the oneness of the triune God, who has adopted us as His children. (Rom. 12:4, 5; 1 Cor. 12:12-14; Matt. 28:19, 20; Ps. 133:1; 2 Cor. 5:16, 17; Acts 17:26, 27; Gal. 3:27, 29; Col. 3:10-15; Eph. 4:14-16; 4:1-6; John 17:20-23.)

[John317]

Are you saying that while the rest of the church has apostasized, the SDAs are the one true remaining denomination?

Bill

13. Remnant and Its Mission:

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)

[John317]

On the same topic--

Satan's Warfare

Against the Church

1. UNDER what figure was the Christian church represented to the apostle John?

"And there appeared a great wonder [margin, sign] in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars." Rev. 12:1.

NOTES.- Frequently in the Scriptures a woman is used to represent the church. See Jer. 6:2; 2 Cor. 11:2. The sun represents the light of the gospel with which the church was clothed at the first advent (I John 2:8); the moon under her feet, the waning light of the former dispensation; and the twelve stars, the twelve apostles.

"Woman in her innocence was attacked by 'that old serpent, called , the Devil, and Satan.'. . . At the end of that first crafty assault and speedy victory the dragon met with his rebuff, in words like these: 'The seed of the woman shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel.'. . . In the Revelation the scene is changed from Eden to the heavens, and before you stand again the woman and the serpent, in the same position of antagonism as before, the serpent still the assailant, only this time more openly so. . . . The woman is no longer a simple, childlike personage, but a wonder; she walks not among the trees and flowers, but amid the orbs of heaven. She is clothed with the sun, the moon is under her feet, and upon her head is a coronet of twelve stars. In her you see the great cause of truth and righteousness embodied - she is, in fact, the church of God in all ages, the woman whose Seed blesses all the nations of the earth." - C. H. Spurgeon, in The Tabernacle Pulpit, March 15, 1886.

2. How is the church at the first advent described?

"And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered." Verse 2.

NOTE.-The church is in labor and pain while she brings forth Christ and her children, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions. See Rom. 8:19,22; 1 John 3:1,2; 2 Tim. 3:12.

3. How are the birth, work, and ascension of Christ briefly described?

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne." Verse 5.

NOTE.-Specifically this must refer to Christ (see Ps. 2:7-9) ; but through Him is also prefigured the experience of the people of God, who finally in the judgment are to share with Christ in ruling the nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 2:26,27), and, like Him, when their work on earth is accomplished be "caught up," at His appearing, to God and to His throne. 1 Thess. 4:15-17.

4. What other sign, or wonder, appeared in heaven?

"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." Verses 3,4.

5. Who is this dragon said to be?

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." Verse 9.

NOTE.-Primarily the dragon represents Satan, the great enemy and persecutor of the church in all ages. But Satan works through principalities and powers in his efforts to destroy the people of God. It was through a Roman king, King Herod, that he sought to destroy Christ as soon as He was born. Matt. 2:16. Rome must therefore be symbolized by the dragon. The seven heads of the dragon are interpreted by some to refer to the "seven hills" upon which the city of Rome is built; by others, to the seven forms of government through which Rome passed; and by still others, and more broadly, to the seven great monarchies which have oppressed the people of God; namely, Egypt, Assyria, Chaldea, Persia, Greece, pagan Rome, and papal Rome, in either of which Rome is represented and included. See Chapter 60. The ten horns, as in the fourth beast of Daniel 7, evidently refer to the ten kingdoms into which Rome was finally divided, and thus again identify the dragon with the Roman power.

6. How is the conflict between Christ and Satan described?

"And there was war in heaven; Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Verses 7-9.

NOTE.-This conflict, begun in heaven, continues on earth. Near the close of Christ's ministry, He said, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Luke 10:18. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." John 12:31. From the councils of the representatives of the various worlds to which Satan, as the prince of this world, was formerly admitted (Job 1:6,7; 2:1,2), he was cast out when he crucified Christ, the Son of God.

7. What shout of triumph was heard in heaven following the victory gained by Christ?

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. . . . Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them." Verses 10-12.

8. Why was woe at this same time proclaimed to the world?

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Verse 12, last part.

NOTE.-This not only shows that, since the crucifixion of Christ, Satan knows that his doom is sealed, and that he has but a limited time in which to work, but that his efforts are largely if not wholly now confined to this world, and concentrated upon its inhabitants. Better than many professed Christians, Satan knows that time is short.

9. What did the dragon do when cast to the earth?

"And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child." Verse 13.

NOTE.-The persecution of Christians began under pagan Rome, but was carried on far more extensively under papal Rome. Matt. 24:21,22.

10. What definite period of time was allotted to this great persecution of God's people under papal Rome?

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, unto her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." Verse 14.

NOTE.-This is the same period as that mentioned in Dan. 7:25 and, like the ten horns, identifies the dragon with the fourth beast of Daniel 7, and its later work with the work of the little horn of that same beast. In Rev. 13:5 this period is referred to as "forty-two months," and in Rev. 12:6 as 1260 days, each representing 1260 literal years, the period allotted to the supremacy of papal Rome. Beginning in 538 A.D., it ended in 1798, when the Pope was taken prisoner by the French. The woman fleeing into the wilderness fittingly describes the condition of the church during those times of bitter persecution.

11. What was Satan's design in thus persecuting the church?

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood." Verse 15.

12. How was the flood stayed, and Satan's design defeated?

"And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth." Verse 16.

NOTE.-The mountain fastnesses quiet retreats, and secluded valleys of southwestern Europe for centuries shielded many who refused allegiance to the Papacy. Here, too, may be seen the results of the work of the Reformation of the sixteenth century, when many of the governments of Europe came to the help of the cause of reform by staying the hand of persecution and protecting the lives of those who dared to take their stand for the right. The discovery of America, and the opening up of this country as an asylum for the oppressed of Europe at this time, may also be included in the "help" here referred to.

13. What did Christ say would be the result if the days of persecution were not shortened?

"Except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matt. 24:22.

14. Still bent on persecution, how does Satan manifest his enmity against the remnant church?

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev. 12:17.

NOTE.-To the very end, Satan will persecute and seek to destroy the people of God. Against the remnant, or last portion of the church, he is especially to make war. Their obedience to God's commandments, and their possession of the testimony of Jesus, or spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19:10), are especially offensive to him, and excite his intense ire.

Soldiers of Christ, arise,

And put your armor on;

Fight, for the battle will be ours;

We fight to win a crown.

We fight not against flesh,

We wrestle not with blood;

But principalities and powers,

And for the truth of God.

CHARLES WESLEY.

[BibleShockers]

>>>...13. Remnant and Its Mission:

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus....

Ok, so what you are saying is that SDA is the "remnant church" and all other denominations are apostates?

Well, were you the remnant before you were Trinitarian? Or did you become "the remnant" from 1920 onward?

Bill

[BibleShockers]

What is the deal? I ask a simple, simple question such as "who is on the throne after the millenium (or, are men judged by a subset of the torah) and I get reprints from SDA literature?!

Can you not answer simple questions?

I gather from your lit that you are sure that your sect is THE sect. I get that.

But please answer my questions!

Bill Ross

[John317]

>>>Yes, the Bible is very clear that God knows the future.

Ever study Daniel 2 or read Isaiah 42 to 45? Yahweh God says that He knows what is going to happen long before it takes place.

I'm sorry, I thought you said the NT had some specific indication that he had foreseen (and was thus OK with) denominations. Was your whole point that God sees the future?

Bill

The New Testament very clearly speaks of an apostasy and of a "remnant," as well as a calling of those in false religious organizations to come out of them and join together in proclaiming the truth about God. Paul also refers to the the lawless one, or man of sin (KJV), and said that this spirit of lawlessness was already active in his day.

You also have the "the little horn" power of Daniel 7 and 8, which is a very large, influential religious institution that arises out of the Romans Empire, the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2, 7 and 8. The "man of sin" takes his seat in the "temple of God." That means the man of sin is not outside the church but is inside the church. It makes it obvious that Satan has invaded the church. Rev. 17 and 18 refer to a corrupt church under the symbol of the whore riding the beast. This corrupt church gives people false doctrines about God and makes them spiritually drunk (Rev. 14 8; 17: 4).

Most of the world follows this beast and is involved in spiritual Babylon. At the end, just before the return of Christ, only a small group of people are keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rv. 14:12)

[John317]

The question about who is on the throne after the millenium was already answered earlier today.

What was the post #?

[BibleShockers]

>>>>The New Testament

I find that to be such a lame term!

>>very clearly speaks of an apostasy

Where? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? I'm thinking a good thing.

>>>and of a "remnant,"

This is a single Greek word. Yes, it appears in the "Bible" but what does it refer to?

>>>as well as a calling of those in false religious organizations

Every group but SDAs?

>>>to come out of them and join together in proclaiming the truth about God.

Become SDAs?

>>>Paul also refers to the the lawless one, or man of sin (KJV), and said that this spirit of lawlessness was already active in his day.

Do you have a verse in mind? To my understanding, this is the worshiped Jesus - the very one that SDAs have called "God" since 1920!

>>>You also have the "the little horn" power of Daniel 7 and 8...

I find all of that stuff obscure.

>>>Most of the world follows this beast and is involved in spiritual Babylon. At the end, just before the return of Christ, only a small group of people are keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rv. 14:12)

Just SDAs I suppose?

Bill

[BibleShockers]

>>>The question about who is on the throne after the millenium was already answered earlier today.

What was the post #?

Oh, you are a cagey one...

Can you please supply a name?

Bill

[John317]

Bible prophecy predicted that before Christ returns, there would be a movement or church raised up who would keep God's commandments and the faith of Jesus, and would have manifest among them the gift of prophecy. Seventh-day Adventists believe that they are this movement.

The marks of identification are that this movement will come on the scene of history shortly after the end of the 1,620 years spoken of in Daniel 7, etc., and about the time of the rising of the earth beast in Rev. 13.

We believe that period came to an end in 1798. We believe that the earth beast of Rev. 13 is the United States, which arose about about the same time. Shortly after that was when God raised up the Seventh-day Adventist church.

The church keeps the commandments of God (the law of God, i.e., the Ten Commandments), including the Sabbath, keeps the faith of faith (both the faith that Jesus had in God and the faith faith about Jesus). Additionally, the Adventist church was given a prophet by the name of Ellen G. White. This woman only had a third grade education and went on to write more books than any other female writer prior her time.

[John317]

>>>The question about who is on the throne after the millenium was already answered earlier today.

What was the post #?

Oh, you are a cagey one...

Can you please supply a name?

Bill

Bill, I am not being cagey at all. I am asking you if you know the number of the post in which you asked the question.

I answered the question but I cannot now locate it. So I am asking if you know on which thread you asked the question and if so, where your post is in which you asked the question.

I believe you asked your question on a different thread. I was answering your question about something else: the remnant.

God is on the throne.

[BibleShockers]

>>>Bible prophecy predicted that before Christ returns, there would be a movement or church raised up who would keep God's commandments and the faith of Jesus, and would have manifest among them the gift of prophecy. Seventh-day Adventists believe that they are this movement...

Pre-1920 or post-1920 only?

Bill